Does having a security device reduce sales?

[Ciaran Laval]

Does having a security device reduce your sales? Do you let people know you have a security device? If you hide your security device would you be embarrassed to tell your customers you have one for fear of losing sales or do people happily tell people they have security devices, especially ones that scan people and add them to a database, would it be bad to advertise your security device does that?

[Phil Deakins]

LOL

My security devices prevent people from entering. I sell them in the store - I don't use them there

[Porky Gorky]

Haha.

I used to have a great security device. It was K9 out of Doctor Who. He used to zoom around the welcome area keeping an eye out for Daleks, greeeting customers and randomly saying whatever stupid quotes I could think off.

Didnt seem to reduce my sales at all.

Is that the sort of thing you are on about? :smileywink:

[Mags Indigo]

Imagine if we could do that in RL...

In some ways I guess some stores do - I'm thinking of 'loyalty cards' etc where customers sign up for perks. Of course the difference there is they actually sign up usually in full knowledge it means that all their purchases will be put under scrutiny in the cause of 'marketing'.

In SL of course we are still talking about non RL identities so I guess it's not as invasive, but the basic concept of it goes against the grain. Personally I have nothing of huge importance to hide - I have a few alts - if they ever see the light of day it's for purely entertainment purposes... so anyone can scan me and I'm not especially bothered - but again - it's the morals of the thing...

Anyway - I'm sure all those business people who do will be happy to contribute to this thread - otherwise they'd be doing something that they're a bit ashamed of... or something.

I guess :smileywink:

[DQ Darwin]

Ciaran I can't speak for others but in my case I fully understand the want of merchants to protect there items. I myself have no problem with security devices if they are open to the public view, actually only provide security to the merchant and can reduce or prevent content theft.

If the devise is clandestine and has other hidden agenda that infringes on my privacy then no way am I going near that store. As a consumer I am allowed to protect my privacy and by default am innocent of wrong doing until I prove other wise.

As a merchant with a small store in world I would never subject my clients to that. My customers are always right, unless they prove themselves wrong. Is part of doing business.

[Eidolon Aeon]

As a customer:  stores using RedZone lost my business.  Stores spamming me with their copybot-protection-chat drove me away. If it doesn't infringe on my privacy or annoy me, I don't care.

As a merchant:  I do not personally waste money on "security devices."

[Ciaran Laval]

DQ I'm primarily a landlord, so I've dealt with various security solutions, I absolutely understand why people want them, but residential wise they are generally advertised and obvious.

I agree with you that store owners who hide them, seem to have something to hide, I'm just wondering why.

[Ciaran Laval]

 

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Porky Gorky wrote:

Haha.

I used to have a great security device. It was K9 out of Doctor Who. He used to zoom around the welcome area keeping an eye out for Daleks, greeeting customers and randomly saying whatever stupid quotes I could think off.

Didnt seem to reduce my sales at all.

Is that the sort of thing you are on about? :smileywink:

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I love this solution!

 

[Ciaran Laval]

 

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Eidolon Aeon wrote:

As a customer:  stores using RedZone lost my business.  Stores spamming me with their copybot-protection-chat drove me away. If it doesn't infringe on my privacy or annoy me, I don't care.

As a merchant:  I do not personally waste money on "security devices."

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Well I'm not looking to name names of devices here, but thank you for naming a couple, I'm trying to understand the balance between security and reach, and you have pointed out admirably that some devices impede reach.

 

[DQ Darwin]

Ciaran; I would find it hard not to agree with you. I arrived in world this morning to find my sim one big 50m high cube. A roll back solved the problem but the feeling was pretty frustrating. In this case I was to blame for leaving edit land open even though restricted access was on. So it was changed because it could be.

Security orbs are far from a problem and totally understandable and acceptable. Now RedZone and it's counter parts are the ones I am leery of. What do they have to hide, a good question.

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Ciaran Laval wrote:

DQ I'm primarily a landlord, so I've dealt with various security solutions, I absolutely understand why people want them, but residential wise they are generally advertised and obvious.

I agree with you that store owners who hide them, seem to have something to hide, I'm just wondering why.

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[Jenni Darkwatch]

Depends on the security device really. As a customer, I'm always checking if there's some sneaky devices trying to get more information than I'm willing to part with (and my proxy then feeds them whatever I feel like). With store owners employing that kind of invasion of my privacy I'll never, ever do business.

That kind of device is the only one I do object to. Everything else if it's not annoying or harrassing like some of the stupid greeters popping up dialogs... no chip off my shoulder.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

I think that the recent controversy over these kinds of devices highlights what is going to become an absolutely central issue in Second Life.  That issue is only peripherally about security.  It's not that security, an end to copybotting and griefing, etc., is not important:  it's just that the sorts of technical options employed by these devices (alt matching and IP bans) are notoriously ineffective, unreliable, and easily sidestepped by anyone with even a minimal background in computers and online technology.

This is not to say, then, that security isn't an important concern, but it's one that, at the most fundamental level, has to be dealt with by LL, and not by third party content providers,who don't really have the proper tools to do the job right.

The real issue to arise from this, and the one that isn't going to go away anytime soon, relates to privacy and datascraping.  The newest generation of "security" devices -- and there is more than the one out there that does this -- have opened a Pandora's box by revealing a security hole in SL's media and music streaming, and by showing that large scale datamining are feasible (and, in one case at least, very lucrative) in Second Life.

What makes this worrisome, in a sense, is not merely that third-party scriptors are likely to continue to exploit this, but also that LL may be reluctant to move aggressively against their methods because they too may be interested in looking at datascraping, a la Twitter and Facebook, as a lucrative thing to exploit in SL in the future.

As for businesses looking for security devices, they need, as a group, to start looking to different kinds of solutions than those provided by this recent generation of "solutions."  Putting pressure on LL would help:  increasing the size of parcel ban lists, for instance, would be a major step in the right direction.  But as privacy becomes more and more of an issue in SL -- as I am sure it is going to now -- merchants are going to need to recognize that this IS a concern of their customers, and that security methods that undercut that are going to backfire.

Increasingly, consumers in RL are looking for "ethical" products and businesses.  The same is, self-evidently, becoming true in Second Life. Those businesses that acknowledge this, and that don't treat their customers as potential criminals from the moment they enter the sim, are the ones who will prosper in the long term.

[Eidolon Aeon]

Beautifully put, Scylla.

[Angelina Eizenberg]

as far as security goes to protect your goods I am not entirely sure anything truly works-people who are bent on stealing and clever enough will find a way I believe. I just have to accept that, take the proper care with the controls I am given for my land and trust that my customers are honest until they prove not to be. I can understand the need for a security device in your personal home-keep off intruders and the likes and there are many out there that do a proper job without taking names and keeping a cross reference list off world.

Using a system that passes itself off as security and not informing your customers and taking your information is plain wrong. I think they know this-surely anyone with a security system would scream it loud and proud to scare off the griefers. A lot of stores have lost my business over this whole issue. I dont have anything to hide, but it certainly doesnt mean I will give up my privacy to anyone. Just last night, my partner and I went shopping (he is a big spender here..well was) and still finding these systems in place has caused him to stop putting money into SL. When a business that normally sells items above the 3K range turn off their customers with these devices I have to say they are definitely loosing some business.

[Marianne Little]

I am only a customer in SL, and I find that this RZ and CDS is really ruining my fun.

It appears that RZ is gone... or is it just a temporary ban until they find a way to put it back? Not to mention CDS, some of the shops where I spent a lot of money has been using CDS all of the time. It makes me really sad, I don't know if I shall just ignore it and keep media turned off. If I shall buy only in "clean" stores, I would not buy much.  Who knows what else that's "security" or "Alt detectors" that we haven't heard about yet.

In my search for new small shops, I find that they run sneaky security devices too. Or maybe it's the mall owners that has them.

The sad thing is that copybotters can avoid the "security" just by disabeling media and don't accept cookies. Those who want can still copybot, while customers that come to your shop to spend money is stored in a database without consent.

The key word here is "consent". I respect that ppl want security devices, all I ask for is a blue pop-up that informes me before I am scanned. It is security cameras all over in RL, but you have to inform people about it. It does not reduce sales in RL, and I am sure it would not reduce sales in SL. Just be open about it, okay? Don't keep it hidden, that is what irks me.

[Relm Foxdale]

Agreed, Scylla.

What constitutes a "security system"? If a store owner just wants to use a security tool to make it easier to make long ban lists or do things remotely, that's fine. But anything that's invading privacy is bad indeed. So is anything that harasses visitors. I mean, the general idea with a business is that you want people to come to your parcel and stay, not make them want to leave or boot them for something they've not done.

[Josephina Bonetto]

The only device I have protects residential areas with corner marked zones and enables them to control their own white list, which negates the need for them to rez their own cr**py orbs.  The same product is in my club but it is set to monitor, and not to take any action (although it can).  I have it for staff, I refuse to deed my mainland so they have remote huds they can use to access the system.  Until that point I saw no need for security beyond land tools.

It does no alt detecting.  It's Triple Labs GWS.

[Mickey Vandeverre]

well, you certainly worded your question quite diplomatically, Ciaran!  You should give a tutorial on that.

Of course it reduces sales.  People are hotter than....(oh, I could plug in some phrases here, but not allowed).....a wet hen....

The most recent "enlightenment" of a particular style of security system, which equates to having your privates groped by the TSA.....only electronically....

then stored for future groping!....

Will be remembered by many as the day their adventures in Second Life came to a screeching halt.

Was in the middle of collecting my own database,  some nice little handwritten memos in a notebook,  jotting down the people who ruined SL for me and others...

Unfortunately, my resource got pulled....hopefully someone else will take the initiative.

If they're going to collect my "stuff"....and treat me as a criminal the minute I set foot on their property, then I sure as heck am going to do the same in return.

Unfortunate thing is....that because some chose to operate that way....it will reduce sales across the board, as people have had to adjust their thinking and mode of shopping inworld.   Not to mention attending live music events and some extracurricular activities.  

 I'm not paranoid - I'm pissed.  And so are others.  If the others unplugged for good - that effects us all.  Could go into a lengthy list of how that all pans out, but don't want to make the new forum system crash!

This week, a neighboring business had a botched security system spamming my store with "You are being ejected" five times a minute, for two solid days, until the dipshiz Yahoo came online to shut it off.

I had IMs in my box all day long, and they were NOT pleasant!  It wasn't just about the annoying spam, but moreso the fact that people thought I had a security system, and what that implies.

If the people using the systems think that their stuff is so valuable and precious that they can justify destroying the adventures and exploration of those taking full advantage of an amazing world.....and thus mess up the economy, while they are at it.....

Well, can't really say how I feel about that, here....

Except that no way in heck am I going to support them with dollars.  And it ain't about a few lindens....they are going to lose some Real Life Dollars.

And those that are hiding it?   There's a place for people like that.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mickey Vandeverre]

Someone hand me a stinkin' badge and a stinkin' rank, so I can tell you how I really feel.

[Glory Takashi]

If it annoys me or spams me I am gone, sale lost. Security devices are nothing but scams. Most people are honest customers and the ones out to rip you off are not going to be slowed down by a security device. Don't annoy people thinking your protecting yourself because your likely to protect yourself right out of business.

[Lynda Baran]

The recent controversy about RZ and similar devices has certainly changed the way I shop.    Where before my shopping habit was split about 60%-40% in-world v. Market Place shopping, now it's about 20%-80%.  

The merchants I purchase from on a regular basis still get my business, though not generally in-world.   But I see an effect on the adjacent merchants as a possible negative side effect of my adjusted shopping habit.

Normally when I would go shopping in-world, I would also take the time to browse the near-by shops.   Sometimes I would make purchases, at others I would make note of ones whose merchandise I might like to buy at a later date.

I would also relay information about these merchants to friends or in group chat if someone mentioned they were looking for a certain product.  

Now that I rarely shop in-world, these adjacent merchants no longer have a shot at gaining my patronage.   As I see it, they may be the really losers in this equation because I no longer window shop,  becoming familiar with a wider variety of merchants.

 

[Denver Ghost]

 

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Mickey Vandeverre wrote:

well, you certainly worded your question quite diplomatically, Ciaran!  You should give a tutorial on that.

Of course it reduces sales.  People are hotter than....(oh, I could plug in some phrases here, but not allowed).....a wet hen....

The most recent "enlightenment" of a particular style of security system, which equates to having your privates groped by the TSA.....only electronically....

then stored for future groping!....

Will be remembered by many as the day their adventures in Second Life came to a screeching halt.

Was in the middle of collecting my own database,  some nice little handwritten memos in a notebook,  jotting down the people who ruined SL for me and others...

Unfortunately, my resource got pulled....hopefully someone else will take the initiative.

If they're going to collect my "stuff"....and treat me as a criminal the minute I set foot on their property, then I sure as heck am going to do the same in return.

Unfortunate thing is....that because some chose to operate that way....it will reduce sales across the board, as people have had to adjust their thinking and mode of shopping inworld.   Not to mention attending live music events and some extracurricular activities.  

 

I'm not paranoid - I'm pissed.  And so are others

.  If the others unplugged for good - that effects us all.  Could go into a lengthy list of how that all pans out, but don't want to make the new forum system crash!

This week, a neighboring business had a botched security system spamming my store with "You are being ejected" five times a minute, for two solid days, until the dipshiz Yahoo came online to shut it off.

I had IMs in my box all day long, and they were NOT pleasant!  It wasn't just about the annoying spam, but moreso the fact that people thought I had a security system, and what that implies.

If the people using the systems think that their stuff is so valuable and precious that they can justify destroying the adventures and exploration of those taking full advantage of an amazing world.....and thus mess up the economy, while they are at it.....

Well, can't really say how I feel about that, here....

Except that

no way in heck am I going to support them with dollars.

  And it ain't about a few lindens....they are going to lose some Real Life Dollars.

And those that are hiding it?   There's a place for people like that.

 

 

 

 

 

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An extraordinary post Mickey. I'm with you.

 

[Toysoldier Thor]

Well I hsve seen clear evidence that the Karaoke club that I have frequented for almost 2 years and was like my second home in SL - I have stopped going to when I discovered the owner of this karaoke club had been secretly scanning all of his guests for some time.  I hoped that after confronting him about this issue and explaining to him how utterly useless REDZONE is in effectively stopping true copybotters - and for his case GRIEFERS.  In fact in the weeks previous - his club had been attacked frequently - the club that he swore up and down that RZ was protecting. 

We ended up having a heated argument about it.  His attitude and blind "zfire told me the truth - all else are lies" loyalty to Redzone is no different that what I have realized from many other RZ customers that will defend and hold onto RZ at all costs until its torn out of their cold dead hands.  These customers would rather anger and lose their valued guests and customers then give up their RZ.

Sadly, when LL announced that RZ had to be taken down and I told this club owner the news and asked him if he was going to now shut down his RZ, he became furious and flung accusations at me that I was a cry-baby he questions my personality and morals and accused me of being a copybotter if I was so strongly against RZ.  I had enough.  I left a club that LOVED and that I was one of his strongest promters - bringing a lot of his guest to.

I left and I have told any of my good SL friends at this club why I left.  Every one of them were shocked that this owner had been secretly scanning them without informing them.  They have all stopped going there too and they are telling their fellow karaoke singers.

So... has this club owner lost his loyal guests?  I have watch his club's daily guests from the map.  It is almost always nearly empty now since.

So.... I have to say that once a store/club owner is detected to be running RZ - and as more SL residents are learning what RZ and similar privacy violating gadgets are... it has to be reduce traffic.  These owners / merchants maybe stopping the rare stupid copybotter... they also may be blocking the innocent that they naively think are evil AVI's but they are likely now losing more business than the griefer or copybotter was taking from them.

 

[Monavie Voight]

I'll be honest that I'm not familiar at all with the security devices mentioned. I read all of the comments. I wonder what is so different in SL? One comment was about being scanned without consent. We are scanned every place we go (in the usa) without our consent. We are watched at street lights and scanned for security purposes. I don't think it's right, but it's being done. So what is the difference? Is it because SL is thought to be able to be a 'utopian' world so peeps don't want anything to bust their bubble inworld? I don't get it. Facebook is linked with so many businesses that if you are buying something at some internet store next time you go into facebook your store, and even the item you purchased, will be popping up in your ads on your home page and wall. Talk about evasion. How many people in here use ANY applications in facebook, for example, (not to pick on facebook alone)? Every application you accept you are giving them 100% access to your most private information, pictures, comments, etc. to be used at their discretion without any required future permissions from you. There is no such thing as not being 'plugged' in unless you live as a hermit somewhere, and even then, there's someone watching you...

[Mickey Vandeverre]

Monavie - Won't touch facebook again.

Second Life offered something entirely different for years.  One of the reasons I thoroughly enjoyed the exploration and adventures all those years.  Combined that with a business that relies on that concept, and all indication is that customers were enjoying those aspects as well.

There are conflicting signals as to what Second Life wants to continue to offer.

They promote "escape"....yet look at what we're dealing with here.

When they make it official that they no longer encourage exploration and adventure.....I will unplug, as will others.

Gotta say.....if this is swept under the rug.....seems pretty darn official to me, as what they want to offer.

I have no clue, as their messages are generally conflicting....so will proceed to be offended by what these security devices have done to the traditional way that many of us have used this venue.