Mesh Clothes versus non-mesh?

[Ricky40]

So with the new year coming and many are planning on shopping for a new wardrobe, I have a question. Has the days if the "non-mesh" clothing passed? What do you think? Would you buy clothing that is old school non-mesh, or do you only buy mesh now?

[SweetArashi]

Some things, like boots over ankle length, I HAVE to have in mesh. Same goes for quadreped avatars. Everything else...

It depends on whether I like it or not.

[Canoro Philipp]

mesh has been very accepted, we seen sucessful stores sell most of their items or new items in mesh, based on that they can give their products a better look having more control over its form, and, if done right, they can be less lagy than a non mesh product.

but still, there are people who wont buy mesh clothing because they have non standard avatars, most mesh clothes are made thinking about the realistic looking body, but not everybody have the objective to look realistic. those customers may wait until mesh clothes can fit any kind of body to move to mesh.

[Tari Landar]

The days of "non-mesh" have not passed, lol. Plenty of people still buy them.

I buy what I like, it's a mixture. I don't plan on changing that anytime soon.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Mesh is an option.  I'd buy mesh over sculpted clothes but system clothes still have their place.  It all depends on what you think looks best and what works for you.   I still see plenty of good looking avatars wearing system clothes and plenty are still being sold.

Mesh does have issues.  It doesn't fit everyone unless you are willing to change your shape.  You have to wear an alpha layer most of the time to keep your body from poking through it.  So never buy mesh without trying a demo on first.  You also can't layer mesh like you can system clothes, unless you buy an outfit designed to be layered together.  So you probably will need system clothes to wear under some thing like a shirt under a jacket. 

I probably won't buy much mesh right now as there is a new technique called Fitted Mesh for rigging mesh coming soon that will make mesh fit better.  It will make mesh clothes sold now passe.  Because older mesh would have to be entirely re rigged and that is time consuming, it is doubtful designers will update any mesh sold before Fitted Mesh is available.

[Nova Convair]

Mesh isn't good enough.

for boots? great!

long hair? looks like crap! flexi hair swinging through the body is crap too. Mesh is much better to render here but only if the creator is no wannabe creator.

short hair? I'll buy one if I find one that I like.

clothes? special dresses like a space suit: yes. Clothes? no thanks, for as long as the clothes dont adapt to my shape. Standard sizes? no thanks.

[Syo Emerald]

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Nova Convair wrote:

Mesh isn't good enough.

for boots? great!

long hair? looks like crap! flexi hair swinging through the body is crap too. Mesh is much better to render here but only if the creator is no wannabe creator.

short hair? I'll buy one if I find one that I like.

clothes? special dresses like a space suit: yes. Clothes? no thanks, for as long as the clothes dont adapt to my shape. Standard sizes? no thanks.

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I prefer good mesh clothes over primes. Miniskirts for example: Not possible with layers or prims (no, a prim between my legs doesn't deserve to be called a skirt). My long mesh hair looks better than most prim hairs I see.

[Czari Zenovka]

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Ricky40 wrote:

So with the new year coming and many are planning on shopping for a new wardrobe, I have a question. Has the days if the "non-mesh" clothing passed? What do you think? Would you buy clothing that is old school non-mesh, or do you only buy mesh now?

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I have only purchased one mesh skirt for the sole reason that it was the exact color I needed to go with a particular outfit.  It's "ok" but I'm not wild about it.  I do not plan to purchase more mesh clothing and am very happy continuing to wear and purchase system/flexi/sculpty clothing.

ETA: My clothing style in SL is overall much like my RL clothing style - I prefer to purchase good quality classic pieces of clothing that are timeless and don't get into fads, thus I don't plan on a new wardrobe for the New Year.  (Caveat in SL are rp clothing items such as Medieval, Victorian, etc.) 

[Marianne Little]

I can show you my male alt with some system clothes versus mesh clothes. First up a casual look. System clothes with sculpted details as collar and rolled up sleeves to the left. System pants as well. This is still good stuff, but I do not like this tight fitting look. I will not delete these clothes, the jeans in particular can be useful under a mesh sweater or jacket. The weakness in mesh lies in the layering. Often, the pants clip through a mesh jacket. The right, all mesh but not the undershirt. A mesh undershirt would be hopeless here. I also prefer mesh pants over system ones. No butt crack.

Then two jackets. These jackets is made by the same creator, Deadwool. Before mesh, this was the best look you could get with system clothes and sculpts. The seams is almost invisible. The old jacket on the two images to the right show some problems, especially where the sleeves flare out and how strange it looks - in my opinion - where the lapels and panels meet the painted on style. Also, since my alt does not have thick muscular arms, the arms in the system jacket look too thin compared to the mesh jacket. Thicker arms would make lumpy arms in a system layer jacket.

My opinion, mesh clothing has a much more natural look,, especially for males. But system clothes still has its place, well textured system  with minimal visible edges between sculpts and body.

I did not put much effort in these images, they are just meant to show the differences and the graphic isn't all that.

[CatalinTorres]

I layer my clothing. I'll buy leggings that are painted on, mesh shoes to go with my slink feet, rigged mesh legwarmers, system undershirt, rigged mesh jacket, rigged mesh hair, rigged mesh skirt/shorts.

 

I will buy mesh over system for pretty much everything. Not because it's a fad, but because it's just so much higher quality if you shop the right places. On bottoms and jeans especially, the legs look so much better than the blocky and unsightly system leg shape. Tops have realistic wrinkles. I like how the shirts fit over my breasts and don't dip into the middle which would only ever happen on a baggy shirt. I don't like my chest shrink wrapped!! I made my shape before I learned about standard sizing but with the help of alphas, everything fits me just fine (why do people complain so much???).

The only gripe I have is mesh makers tend to make the brests either too big or too small. I'm not running around with mesh breasts and I actually reduced mine via shape and tattoo layers, so sometimes the mesh gives me a push up bra look.

One of my friends is a mesh breast fan and she can't find a suitable coat to save her life. all the mesh winter clothes are fitted to small girls and there's like two things that come with appliers.

[Bree Giffen]

There are still a lot of regular system clothes out there for tight fitting outfits and ones that are compatible with the mesh chests and derrieres. Guys don't normally wear tight fitting clothes so mesh is actually much better in terms of clothing.

 

Marianne, that's an awesome example.

[Coby Foden]

I will buy anything that looks good, fits well and is modifiable - be it system clothes, prims or mesh. Mesh does not replace the "old" style clothing, it's an alternative and option for various types of clothes. Well made mesh clothes can look really awesome; so will well made "old" style clothes too. What method to use to create the clothes depends a lot what kind of item is in question. Mesh is not suitable for everything, neither are system clothes, nor prims.

Some examples what methods I think are good for what clothing or body accessory items.

Flexi prims

• Long flowing hairs
• Long flowing gowns
• All kinds of tails
• Wings
• Anything which needs to have some flexible 'life' in it

System clothes

• To accompany something what is created with flexi prims
• Underwear to be worn under other clothes

Mesh

• All shoes
• Mini skirts
• Pants, shorts
• Bikinis
• Jewellery
• Sunglasses
• Tops
• Men's suits
• Avatar body add-ons (feet, hands, etc.)

What I would totally replace with mesh

• System skirts (horrible!)
• Sculpted prims (innefficient lag monster, mesh is more efficient and even easier to create)

The big problem with mesh at present is - as many have experienced - that it is very difficult to find well fitting mesh. People want that the clothes fit the avatar; not that the avatar must be changed to fit the clothes. Well, there is brighter future at sight now concerning that matter.

To finish this post, some photos.

System clothes and flexi prims:
(Jewellery and hair flower are sculpted prims)

System clothes, sculpted prims, flexi prims:

Mesh (coat, skirt, top)
(Flexi prim hair; the sandals are sculpted prims, better result would be possible with mesh):

So, to sum up:
All clothing creating methods will have their proper and good uses - except for the system skirt and sculpted prims. :matte-motes-smile:

 

[Marybeth Cooperstone]

I make clothes (for use only by me and a few friends - not for sale) and only make system clothes, simply because that is easy to do using GIMP. A few observations about system vs. mesh:

System clothes are "painted" onto your body so will fit the shame of your body no matter what shape it is. So for close fitting clothes, such as underwear, system makes sense. As some have noted, mesh clothes require that your avi body be a certain size and shape, If, in a particular place, it is too small there will be a gap between the body and clothes. If the body is too large it will poke out of the mesh clothes. I would always recommend system for underwear.

There are some places where clothes, even tight fitting ones, in RL do not follow the body. For example, pants to not usually show the "but crack". Women's tops are usually straight from the tip of one breast to the tip of the other. The do not go in between the boobs. In this regard, mesh looks more realistic than system which always is the same shape as the body.

With mesh, dresses can be one piece. With system, they require a top and a skirt, and are tight at the waist.

With mesh and an alpha layer (too keep you from poking through) the legs disappear at the hem line. When your avi is sitting, it looks abnormal. With system, when you are sitting it is easy to "upskirt" you. You can be seen all the way up. Always, with system skirts wear good looking panties because they can often be seen (good advice in RL too, but in RL the lack of light makes it more difficult to see that far up.)

So system vs. mesh is a matter of choice - there are advantages and disadvantages each way.

Marybeth

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[Coby Foden]

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Marybeth Cooperstone wrote:

 

With mesh and an alpha layer (too keep you from poking through) the legs disappear at the hem line. When your avi is sitting, it looks abnormal.

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Wearing mesh, mesh, mesh and mesh (easy to spot which are mesh... I think...).

The skirt is made in such a way that it's impossible to see the "pussycat" hiding under.  :matte-motes-big-grin: :cathappy:

The alpha mask is also totally hidden inside the skirt so one cannot see the horrific void there. One can sit with this skirt without any problems whatsoever.

I just wish that all designers would pay attention to this. It is fairly easy to make skirts and other items this way - not revealing the void inside. Like Medhue showed in his video here:

 

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/See-Through-Gaps-in-Mesh-Clothing-Easy-Fix/m-p/2400645#M25076

 

 

[Amanda Hewitt]

Mesh is just garbage - I've wasted so much money on mesh cloths that just don't work!!!  To make things worse, many of the vendors say that I need to change my AV - REALLY!?!?! For each new outfit I buy?   Half the vendors don't even tell you your buying mesh garbage and Linden Labs doesn't care because they earn money on each sale without giving buyers a way to complain or get their money back.  Wouldn't it be nice if there were SL attorneys? 

Today I purchased a dress with a skirt that only fits in XL since my bottom shows through in every other size.  The vendors suggestion - change my AV's rear - I'd look like a guy if I trimmed myselt that much!! And what happens when I purchase the next outfit?  Do I need to have a different AV for each one? STUPID!!  So I guess Linden Labs really wants to have all AV's fit a certain mold - 5 exact sizes only!

Mesh is just a stupid waste for shoppers like me!!  LINDEN LABS - YOU need to require that stores tell customers if an item is mesh - period!!! 

[Amanda Hewitt]

That would be nice if all stores had demos or told you that you were buying mesh - they don't and it's frustrating and expensive for many of us.  Personally I fed up with this garbage!

[Amanda Hewitt]

REALLY!?!?!? So your saying it's successful because of sale?  What does that mean?  If you buy a mesh outfit and it won't work what can you do? NOTHING!  Vendors have no simpathy - offer no refunds - and simply say "you need to change your AV."  Linden Labs offers no way to get your money back or even complain - why would they when it means they have to give money back to.  AND half the time  there is no way of knowing you're buying mesh.  Just another reason that SL is loosing it's aura!

[Amanda Hewitt]

Nice if you have a one size fits all AV - for us girls with different shapes mesh dresses are garbage most of the time!  Once you buy an outfit and it won't work unless you change your AV you are simply out of luck as far as Linden Labs is  concerned.  It's just plain stupid!

[Amanda Hewitt]

They complain because they don't have one (or 5) sizes fits all AV's.  And once you've bought an outit that doesn't work, your stuck unless you change your AV for each outfit and vendor.  I haven't met too many women in SL who are pleased with mesh - but maybe that's because the other women I know are unique!

[Dresden Ceriano]

I'm thinking this is the point where chill pills are meant to be taken.

...Dres

[Coby Foden]

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Amanda Hewitt wrote:

Personally I fed up with this garbage!

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                      :cattongue:

[Sassy Romano]

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Amanda Hewitt wrote:

Mesh is just garbage - I've wasted so much money on mesh cloths that just don't work!!!  To make things worse, many of the vendors say that I need to change my AV - REALLY!?!?! For each new outfit I buy?

So I guess Linden Labs really wants to have all AV's fit a certain mold - 5 exact sizes only!

Mesh is just a stupid waste for shoppers like me!!  LINDEN LABS - YOU need to require that stores tell customers if an item is mesh - period!!! 

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Hi Amanda, i'd like to comment on the above bits.

I sympathise very much with fitting issues, i'm very small up top and it's a challenge to find some things that fit but when you say you have wasted so much money, don't you get demos first?  If there's no demo, don't buy.

 

As far as Marketplace, LL DOES have a checkbox for merchants to fill in that says "Mesh" or "Partial Mesh" so it is there and if you buy something that is mesh when it didn't say it was mesh, feel free to flag the listing for "not as advertised".  I'm waiting for LL to implement the search filter in marketplace that lets shoppers actually make use of that listing attribute such that people can search for only mesh or definitely not mesh.

As for merchants requiring you to change your appearance, it's not really the merchants fault.  You see, when an item is "rigged", the vertices that make up the item are fixed in place according to the bone to which they are weighted.  Until recently this has meant that when a size is made, that's it.  No support for squishy bits such as breasts, love handles, bum, belly.

Nobody was happy about this and a consortium of creators decided upon some standard sizes.  Most of them are downright deformed but that's what happened.

For over a year (or was it 2?!) we waited for "the deformer" to be implemented and then eventually LL gave us one but it's a bit of a pig to use and won't necessarily be a good solution.  It's way more work for the creator and the results are questionable in some areas but this isn't the merchants fault, this is all down to LL failing to anticipate the use to which mesh would be put (clothes duh LL!) and failing to provide the right tools for creators in the first place.

Where this will be an issue is not whether the item is mesh or not but whether the item is "mesh" (static rigged) or "mesh" (collision bone rigged - deformable).

So to sum up, as both a creator and customer, I empathise with your frustration but directing that frustration at creators who have had to spend way more time faffing around due to LL's failure to provide function has and continues to frustrate creators as much as customers.

It gives me no pleasure to sell an item that the customer is not happy with, I am more than happy to refund (or do a custom fit but that costs a LOT more) but equally, it's not unreasonable to ask that the customer reads the advert and if it states mesh, that a demo is tried first.  Clearly if neither is the case, then your stated comment is equally valid.

[Ceka Cianci]

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Amanda Hewitt wrote:

They complain because they don't have one (or 5) sizes fits all AV's.  And once you've bought an outit that doesn't work, your stuck unless you change your AV for each outfit and vendor.  I haven't met too many women in SL who are pleased with mesh - but maybe that's because the other women I know are unique!

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they can copy thier shape and tweak it and place it in the same folder as the outfit or item for a fast change that fits..

it's a quick an easy fix plus you get to stay unique.

if they are making their own shapes they probably know this already anyways..

you never touch your original shape and still get to wear mesh..

 

 

 

 

[Ceka Cianci]

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Amanda Hewitt wrote:

That would be nice if all stores had demos or told you that you were buying mesh - they don't and it's frustrating and expensive for many of us.  Personally I fed up with this garbage!

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if a store doesn't have a demo  or lacks information then i'm not buying from them, i don't care how nice the picture looks..

if i am at the market shopping already and have looked through their stuff and they don't have a demo there..i'm not going in world to get a demo either..

i've wasted enough time already..

 

not all creators are gonna line up or bend to  your shopping needs..

just find the ones that do is all and things will get a bit more harmonious..

it doesn't have to be such a frustrating experience..

 

just have a list of rules that you stick to for yourself that you set when you check places out..

if things don't line up  then just move to the next one..

shopping takes long enough  as it is with a good system of rules..

 

 

 

 

[Pussycat Catnap]

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Ceka Cianci wrote:

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Amanda Hewitt wrote:

That would be nice if all stores had demos or told you that you were buying mesh - they don't and it's frustrating and expensive for many of us.  Personally I fed up with this garbage!

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if a store doesn't have a demo  or lacks information then i'm not buying from them, i don't care how nice the picture looks..

if i am at the market shopping already and have looked through their stuff and they don't have a demo there..i'm not going in world to get a demo either.. 

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Visually there's a pretty striking difference between mesh and system clothing - I have my doubts over anyone who claims they cannot tell. Sculpty - in ads I could see making a mistake, but inworld super easy to spot (and if you can't just eyeball it, click on it and it will have a blurry edge' if sculpty, or razor-sharp line if mesh).

But I agree on the demo thing. Plenty of places I have passed right by because of no demo. That said most of these places are using templates they bought and recolored. I don't need to try your demo if I already have a demo of the same item from the last shop I was in, and the other 5 shops before it also all sold color variations of it... But then again this requires being able to visually spot the difference between an elephant and a mouse.

(The obvious exception would be static items like jewelry or a hat - things that are either sculpty or mesh. You can spot these instantly in world because sculpty has rounded edges and always one spot where the texture / shape deforms from many points coming together. But on screenshots camera angle can hide that).