Sammy Huntsman Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said: I could offer a free Reiki session to any noobie triggered by a sign to help them calm down ;0 But seriously, I don't think LL should ignore all signs -- for example, say a sign depicts outright abuse. I could see where LL wouldn't want SL to be portrayed in such a way in a public location -- that's simply not good for business should the abusive sineage be photographed and posted somewhere. So it's good the rules are a bit vague and left to their discretion really. What do you mean by abuse? What kinda abuse? And I don't know, I dont think it should be up to LL to deal with us if we are triggered or uncomfortable with something. We are responsible for our own emotions triggers and even comfort. If you don't like something or feel it portrays what you believe is inappropriate. You are responsible for walking away or even doing something about it to avoid the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elleevelyn Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 1 hour ago, Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia said: You can't derender scripts, though, and scripts are full of math, and math is full of politics! Those sneaky scripters are always causing problems, making everybody crazy, with their political campaigns hidden in scripts. I used to be a normal person, but after one trip to the LSL wiki, I started having... concepts of plans! ikr. Ask anything on the scripting forum and you can get like 4 or 16 offered ways to cook your cat including raw sliced cat sashimi style from vegans even. Totally subversive and deeps political. Like: Is this how I do this ? Answer: Not really no, but if you did want to do it that way, it goes like this ! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Istelathis Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 4 hours ago, Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia said: You can't derender scripts, though, and scripts are full of math, and math is full of politics! Those sneaky scripters are always causing problems, making everybody crazy, with their political campaigns hidden in scripts. I used to be a normal person, but after one trip to the LSL wiki, I started having... concepts of plans! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonBollock Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 11 hours ago, Quartz Mole said: To remind people, the https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Forum_Participation_Guidelines say That includes discussions of current political events and popular memes, and I am anxious that this thread doesn't get derailed by people introducing them, no matter how indirectly. That's why I've asked people not to discuss them, even as examples. It seems to me pointless to argue about whether a hypothetical flag or sign would or wouldn't be covered by Linden Lab Official:Policy on ad farms and network advertisers. If you see a sign you think contravenes the policy, then report it. If you want to put up a such a sign, then you should read the official policy, use your own best judgement, and wait to see if it gets returned or not. Speculating about hypotheticals here seems pointless. Thanks Quartz, But to be fair though, speculating about hypotheticals accounts for 80% of our forum content. And don't discount the postings which then argue with speculations by presenting opposing speculation. Be careful not to do yourself out of a job 🙂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 6 hours ago, Sammy Huntsman said: What do you mean by abuse? What kinda abuse? And I don't know, I dont think it should be up to LL to deal with us if we are triggered or uncomfortable with something. We are responsible for our own emotions triggers and even comfort. If you don't like something or feel it portrays what you believe is inappropriate. You are responsible for walking away or even doing something about it to avoid the issue. I'm much more supportive of free markets. If the Lab judges that it can make more money by screening out all political speech, fine, same for whatever they assess to be too "triggering" to maximize profit. They don't have to be dismissive about the content they remove, just frank: "We removed your pro-Putin puppy-mutilating fanfic diorama because it wasn't helping us meet our sales targets. Maybe a more popular exhibit would work better." But it's a free market. Those into Putin/puppy fanfic are free to buy their own social network virtual world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 (edited) 11 hours ago, Sammy Huntsman said: 13 hours ago, Luna Bliss said: I could offer a free Reiki session to any noobie triggered by a sign to help them calm down ;0 But seriously, I don't think LL should ignore all signs -- for example, say a sign depicts outright abuse. I could see where LL wouldn't want SL to be portrayed in such a way in a public location -- that's simply not good for business should the abusive sineage be photographed and posted somewhere. So it's good the rules are a bit vague and left to their discretion really. Expand What do you mean by abuse? What kinda abuse? And I don't know, I dont think it should be up to LL to deal with us if we are triggered or uncomfortable with something. We are responsible for our own emotions triggers and even comfort. If you don't like something or feel it portrays what you believe is inappropriate. You are responsible for walking away or even doing something about it to avoid the issue. Abuse, at its core, means we are stealing something from another. A sign can be a symbol that affirms this theft. Society (and the communities they're composed of, including our little SL community) needs to monitor such theft so that we don't normalize abuse with our permitted or accepted symbols. Edited September 15 by Luna Bliss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JacksonBollock Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 12 hours ago, Sammy Huntsman said: What do you mean by abuse? What kinda abuse? And I don't know, I dont think it should be up to LL to deal with us if we are triggered or uncomfortable with something. We are responsible for our own emotions triggers and even comfort. If you don't like something or feel it portrays what you believe is inappropriate. You are responsible for walking away or even doing something about it to avoid the issue. And this ladies and gentlemen is where extreme individualism loses all grasp on reality. Please note I'm talking philosophical individualism, not the sort which dare not speak its name on this thread To be fair, I'm giving this perspective way too much credit by labelling it as any sort of "individualism", there are other words that come to mind, but I don't have enough *'s on my keyboard. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Sharkfin Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 This wouldn't even be an issue if we had a governing body in SL with opposing parties and elections, etc. There'd be no room for RL politics because we'd all be too busy yelling at each other for a bunch of different (but equally frivolous and nonsensical) reasons fabricated to distract us from how the people in charge are screwing us all equally. 😏 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamond Marchant Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 18 hours ago, Quartz Mole said: It seems to me pointless to argue about whether a hypothetical flag or sign would or wouldn't be covered by Linden Lab Official:Policy on ad farms and network advertisers. I believe that many here would appreciate it if Linden Lab would provide some clarification (in an official policy document) as to whether or not the language below applies to all privately owned parcels on Mainland or only applies to "ad farms and network advertisers". One might reasonably believe it does NOT as this language only appears in a policy written specifically for "ad farms and network advertisers". Quote In addition, advertisements must comply with these requirements: They must be grounded to the terrain, not floating. They must extend no higher than 8 m from the ground. They must contain no rotating or flashing content and no particles. They must not dispense unsolicited IMs, note cards, landmarks or content. They must emit no light sources or glow (full bright is acceptable). Advertising hoardings must be Phantom. Ad content must be clearly General in nature. Ads must not contain sound or temp-on-rez content. Ad content may not be political in nature. Ban lines should be switched off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moles Quartz Mole Posted September 15 Moles Share Posted September 15 10 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said: I believe that many here would appreciate it if Linden Lab would provide some clarification (in an official policy document) as to whether or not the language below applies to all privately owned parcels on Mainland or only applies to "ad farms and network advertisers". One might reasonably believe it does NOT as this language only appears in a policy written specifically for "ad farms and network advertisers". The Governance team is aware of this thread. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 I hope the clarification is something like, "We know it when we see it. Admit it, you do too. Be smart, follow the spirit of the rule. You can do it!" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garnet Psaltery Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 22 minutes ago, Quartz Mole said: The Governance team is aware of this thread. Poor Quartz. What did you do that they gave you the weekend shift? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeFlossDaily Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 13 hours ago, Sammy Huntsman said: You are responsible for walking away or even doing something about it to avoid the issue. In your silence you agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Hexem Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 21 hours ago, Quartz Mole said: It seems to me pointless to argue about whether a hypothetical flag or sign would or wouldn't be covered by Linden Lab Official:Policy on ad farms and network advertisers. If you see a sign you think contravenes the policy, then report it. If you want to put up a such a sign, then you should read the official policy, use your own best judgement, and wait to see if it gets returned or not. With respect, if the rules were more clear, there wouldn't be an argument. This is something LL brought on itself. And I'm not sure "just take the gamble and see how Governance is feeling that day" is really a good official response. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted September 15 Author Share Posted September 15 14 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said: I'm not sure "just take the gamble and see how Governance is feeling that day" is really a good official response. Which is why the situation and confusion around child avatars continues to come up. Second Life is operated like a country with laws best suited to a forum or chat room. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 No rules, people whine. Too many rules, people whine. Unclear rules, people whine. Crystal clear rules, people whine. Too strict or too lax and people whine. I always told my son, when you whine I stop listening. Hmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Nagy Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 (edited) Now what about a poster of Taylor Swift next to one of a cat? A guys back on a poster next to a poster of a bit shady sofa? I mean, for creative minds there is always wiggle room... Edited September 15 by Sid Nagy added some and editted a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 37 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: 54 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said: I'm not sure "just take the gamble and see how Governance is feeling that day" is really a good official response. Which is why the situation and confusion around child avatars continues to come up. Second Life is operated like a country with laws best suited to a forum or chat room. Apparently you have no experience with courtroom proceedings... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted September 15 Author Share Posted September 15 5 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said: Now what about a poster of Taylor Swift next to one of a cat? Depends if the cat is holding a gun or not. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynite00 Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 (edited) I prefer to give everyone the most freedoms possible, and freedom of expression, as we cannot be making rules regarding how someone might perceive, react or be triggered or be offended by - because that is subjective. CAVEAT: LL can do what it likes, as long as it recognizes there are consequences to it's success if overly-moderated. Yes, I will go as far as to tolerate people displaying Nazi flags, or the Union Jack, and the LGBTQ+ flag or anything else they see fit as long as it is not accompanied by what is defined as 'hate speech', calling for violence against an individual or groups, or promoting unlawful activity . But LL will time you out for refusing to address another SL'er by their preferred pronoun, so they've gone as far now to unashamedly stating they will compel their customer's speech... so why not go all the way and ban any political or social issue expression so that noone can ever be triggered, offended or allegedly 'harassed' in any way. I'd prefer to keep people open and visible, so that discussions can be had with them, even if they're found out to be fools - rather than simply driving them underground - and just get more bitter and battle-hardened. Displaying a MAGA flag, a BLM flag, a Kamala political ad, Russia/Communism flag, "Save Ukraine" flag, Union Jack, Nazi Flag or "Don't Tread On Me" flag does not hurt anyone else, and does not infringe on anyone else's rights or cause them harm - though ANY one of those can offend someone - should not be the grounds to attract any 'governance' action unless it goes further than that, and can be clearly proven to be used to harass another individual. A sign or picture can't do anything by itself, it is an inanimate object that can harrass noone - unless of course it includes hate speech with it. Me posting a picture of a married white couple with kids, in response to a neighbour promoting gay marriage for example, is not harassment, even if I posted it in response. If one person can 'advertise' or express their opinion or political position, then everyone else can - OR NO ONE CAN. At the end of the day, it is the inconsistency of LL's 'governance' and the 'spirit' of when they feel like moderating or not - is the issue. This is why we have TOS's, and arbitration. Right now LL's TOS is really just a formality, as they reserve the right 'to do anything and moderate as we see fit' so it's all moot. Be aware that potential users and customers see all of this, and react accordingly. If they agree with LL's politics and way of doing things to create a 'safe space' at the cost of 'fair' expression and 'inclusion', they join. If they look around and see a Tumblr culture, they won't. Sansar had it all locked down, complete with staff chaperoning of events, and presence at community meetings - like parents doting over and supervising the children playing - and no one could just relax and speak their mind for fear of retribution. Guess what happened? Those same people found other platforms where they could express themselves freely, and not have Mommy and Daddy watching over them all the time. Most users are NOT extreme in their views, but many individuals will certainly use hyperbole to make their case when appealing to governance, in order to get the maximum effect and hopefully get force used against others who offend them in some way. 27 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said: No rules, people whine. Too many rules, people whine. Unclear rules, people whine. Crystal clear rules, people whine. Too strict or too lax and people whine. I always told my son, when you whine I stop listening. Hmmm. This is the best solution in the end. Give people the tools to manage their own experience in SL. Educate them on how to block, derender users and stuff they personally find offensive, ignore all the whining, and only step in in a case that is clear harassment or hate. Edited September 15 by Cynite00 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted September 15 Author Share Posted September 15 1 minute ago, Cynite00 said: Yes, I will go as far as to tolerate people displaying Nazi flags, or the Union Jack, and the LGBTQ+ flag ......... Think we're done here. 1 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynite00 Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: Think we're done here. That's because you react before reading the entire sentence, as usual you only snip the part you take offense to, and not the entire thought in whole.. A dishonest half-quote. Defending other people's rights means YOUR rights are also ensured. The same rights or freedoms you want to deny others, can and WILL be denied you. Edited September 15 by Cynite00 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted September 15 Author Share Posted September 15 2 minutes ago, Cynite00 said: That's because you react before reading the entire sentence, I don't care, you have nothing left to say as far as I am concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynite00 Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 1 minute ago, Coffee Pancake said: I don't care, you have nothing left to say as far as I am concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 16 minutes ago, Cynite00 said: Me posting a picture of a married white couple with kids, in response to a neighbour promoting gay marriage for example, is not harassment, even if I posted it in response. If one person can 'advertise' or express their opinion or political position, then everyone else can - OR NO ONE CAN. Nobody has ever tried to deny marriage for a straight person though, so why would you feel the need to affirm your preference? You've never been hurt for your preferences while gay people have been denied their rights. This shows, really, that you don't understand the underlying issues here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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