Suggestion - Avatar legality checking station.

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

Avatar looks are only part of what is used to determine age, so I don't think age rating alone will ever work.  Other considerations can be a person speech, the situation they are in, or chat logs, actions, whether they changed clothes after they got their fancy official "I'm an adult" badge.

All of the threads on how to tell a child (14 to 17 years old) from an adult prove how very different each of us sees this.

 

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Starberry Passion said:

Just because you have a certain shape doesn't mean it can't be a shape in a slim shape.

No where have I ever said one couldn't have whatever shape they'd like.

I take issue with you saying that edge cases are all about wanting to look a certain way with the criteria you've listed.   The fact is that many of those edge cases do use those same criteria knowing full well they do look younger than 18.  "Oh, but I'm just wanting to look cutsie and girly".  I looked cutsie and girlie in that one photo and guess what?  Some people thought she looked too young.  I honestly don't care what the heck people choose to look like.  But saying all those edge cases are just wanting to look a certain way because it's the norm or the standard as to what defines cute or feminine or whatever, is wrong.  Those looks will always be examined more closely now in Adult regions.  Anywhere else, couldn't care less.

I'm cute and feminine and attractive and beautiful without looking 'on the edge' of adulthood.   Women should be considered feminine and beautiful  regardless of body shape.  

[Starberry Passion]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

No where have I ever said one couldn't have whatever shape they'd like.

I take issue with you saying that edge cases are all about wanting to look a certain way with the criteria you've listed.   The fact is that many of those edge cases do use those same criteria knowing full well they do look younger than 18.  "Oh, but I'm just wanting to look cutsie and girly".  I looked cutsie and girlie in that one photo and guess what?  Some people thought she looked too young.  I honestly don't care what the heck people choose to look like.  But saying all those edge cases are just wanting to look a certain way because it's the norm or the standard as to what defines cute or feminine or whatever, is wrong.  Those looks will always be examined more closely now in Adult regions.  Anywhere else, couldn't care less.

I'm cute and feminine and attractive and beautiful without looking 'on the edge' of adulthood.   Women should be considered feminine and beautiful  regardless of body shape.  

I don't really care if you take issue with it. You assume I mean all as a whole, when I am saying that the majority of Second life user is this way.

You can be upset with it but the truth is, in general, this is the most common.

This, in no way, said you were less girly, less cute, less feminine. I am saying, that this is what that means to them this is their femininity.

And it has been proven several times by, not just me, but by several on Second life.

I am defending these women who see femininity in their own way from women like you who want them to see it your way when I am saying

they are just seeing it this way and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Rowan Amore]

57 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

the majority of Second life user is this way.

Not the people I know

57 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

You can be upset with it but the truth is, in general, this is the most common

I'm not upset at all and your truth is just your opinion

57 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

And it has been proven several times by, not just me, but by several on Second life.

So, proven by you and several makes it the truth for the rest of us?  Ok

 

57 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

you who want them to see it your way when I am saying

they are just seeing it this way and there is nothing wrong with that.

No, I actually don't care if they see it my way and have said numerous times everyone should look however they'd like and I have no problem with that, at all.

 

If anyone is trying to make people see things one specific way, it's you.  I've never defined once what makes a woman cute or desirable or feminine or youthful but you have, in quite a few posts over several different threads.  

Anyway, back on topic.   This right here is why an avatar legality checking station would never work.  LL has nothing definitive on the perceived age of an avatar because people will always see things differently.  

Edited May 12 by Rowan Amore

[Zarithiel]

As part of my general education for my engineering and art degree I had to take a humanities class on Race, Ethnicity, and/or Gender. I found one that was basically an examination of the kyriarchy. (Kyriarchy is an intersectional feminist system of oppression that encompasses sexism, racism, ableism, ageism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, anti-Catholicism, homophobia, transphobia, fatphobia, classism, xenophobia, economic injustice, the prison-industrial complex, colonialism, militarism, ethnocentrism, speciesism, linguicism and other forms of dominating hierarchies in which the subordination of one person or group to another is internalized and institutionalized.)

Among the topics we discussed in this class was femininity, feminine beauty standards, ageism, and the infantalization of women, and how it's a system of oppression. Here is a recent article in a blind peer reviewed scholarly journal on the subject that explains it better than I could.

But there is a very strong correlation between modern western (and some eastern) beauty standards and youth, to the point that as a society ladies spend huge amounts of money trying to look younger so they are more beautiful, going so far as to inject paralyzing toxins into their faces and having invasive surgeries to look younger. And we don't really question it, or think about it, but as a society we subconsciously and collectively inflict and oppress both ourselves and others with these standards. 

So it's totally understandable that a lady who wants to be pretty and cute subconsciously makes her avatar look younger. But it's also understandable that others may clock that push towards youthfulness as being under 18 and be uncomfortable with it for their own protection. This is especially so if that person is an adult sim owner/estate manager or plays in adult spaces. 

I think it's important to recognize and be mindful of the correlation between youthfulness and beauty when it comes to making an avatar if you are concerned with being reported. 

As an aside, I keep seeing people being hyper judgemental of the height of others while often claiming they're being discriminated against for their own height. And yes, some people in SL will judge based on height for lack of knowledge or ability to articulate the issue. 

Imagine someone who is obviously an adult. Let's say, Beyonce. 

Now, let's say Beyonce, shaped entirely like Beyonce was ten feet tall or three meters. She's still an adult. Right? Now let's say we have Beyonce shaped like Beyonce but she got hit by a shrink ray and now she's 6 inches or like 10cm tall. She's still an adult. At any height, a whole adult Beyonce is still a whole adult Beyonce. 

Now, imagine a young Macaulay Culkin straight out of the first Home Alone movie. He's a kid. That's how he's shaped. It doesn't matter if you grab an image of him and make him ten feet tall or six inches tall. He's still a kid in that movie.

If you had a toddler who was house sized, that's still a toddler. 

It's not height, it's proportions. And I'm not talking 36-24-36 style proportions, but head unit proportions, like we folks in the art world use. This tool uses idealized proportions (8 heads tall instead of 7.5 which is apparently the height of an average human. (The adult human head is like 7-9 inches tall, so 5 ft 7 in on the generous side.)) seen in Greek sculptures to create a calculator for modern sculptors to scale their sculptures. 

Your avatar can be 7-9 heads tall and be one foot tall or ten feet tall or ten thousand feet tall and still be a whole adult.

The problem I often see with the avatars of the, "I want to be short and cute and my real life height everyone else is just a giant," crowd who then worry about being clocked as a minor isn't their height. It's that they scaled down their sliders but didn't scale down their heads to match making themselves unintentionally 5-6 heads tall, which is incidentally seen in someone who is like 6-12 years old. And some folks are seeing this and something in their brain is saying something's not quite right but they can't put their finger on it so they assume it's height. 

And the fix for this is super simple: Scale down the head a little. Measure if you're really concerned. That's it. 

But what do I know? I'm one of those fantasy creatures people judge, deride, and look down their noses at for being tall.

And yes an avatar age check station is not really tenable.

Edited May 12 by Zarithiel
Getting back on topic after my ramble.

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

31 minutes ago, Zarithiel said:

And I'm not talking 36-24-36 style proportions

According to The Commodores, that's a winning hand.

[Leslie Trihey]

5 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Scenario:

"Halt! Show me your papers!"

"..I don't have any papers.."

"No entry! Next! Show me your papers!"

"Here you are, I am verified."

"What is your purpose to visit here?"

"Shopping."

"Where is your official badge?"

"I have not been issued one yet."

"In you go. Next! Show me your papers!"

"Here are my papers, sir."

"Everything seems in order. What is your purpose to visit here?"

"I need to visit my partner at their home."

"Your status does not allow a partner!"

"But..but..I have an Adult avatar too.."

"Irrelevant! I am close to reporting you!"

"I am sorry!"

"Denied! Next! Show me your papers!"

"Here you go."

"Your papers are in order. Purpose for visit?"

"I am a courtesan, sir."

"This is not allowed, you look too young even with papers. You have been reported!!"

 

POV: Your eight hours into your fourteen hour shift working the Zindra adult content Border checkpoint:

[Alwin Alcott]

7 hours ago, Starberry Passion said:

 

• Cute

• Feminine

• Girly

• Soft

• attractive

• Youthful

• beautiful

 

 

empty words pure subjectives, there are no universal definitions possible on those.
"cute" is the most abused and not defined thing that ever been, and is used as standard for what precisely?
Most often a to old avatar dressed up to young.

Edited May 12 by Alwin Alcott

[Anna Nova]

16 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

... Any idea that you sr*w over skin creators ...

Sorry, but I don't understand any of this.  What does sr*w mean?  (I don't speak American English)

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Anna Nova said:

Sorry, but I don't understand any of this.  What does sr*w mean?  (I don't speak American English)

I am certain they meant "screw", which is not a filtered word in the first place. "To screw over" is to F with someone, take away their livelihood, etc.

Edited May 13 by Love Zhaoying

[Anna Nova]

16 hours ago, Dorientje Woller said:

...

My avatar is 1.55m in the LL official viewer, Alchemy Viewer, but is 1.74m in the Firestorm viewer.

I didn't realise that.  I can't run most viewers as they are Microsoft Wonkydoos only.

[Anna Nova]

12 hours ago, Zarithiel said:

...

It's not height, it's proportions. ...

And the fix for this is super simple: Scale down the head a little. Measure if you're really concerned. That's it. 

But what do I know? I'm one of those fantasy creatures people judge, deride, and look down their noses at for being tall.

And yes an avatar age check station is not really tenable.

Hey, that was really interesting for me.  I went and reduced my head size (The slider in 'head' in 'Appearance' on Firestorm) from 45 to 40.  It doesn't change how I feel about my shape, but it does, for sure, make the avatar look a lot more adult.  Thanks for effort you put into that @Zarithiel.

And the 'Age Check Station' idea was mostly tongue-in-cheek.  I keep forgetting most people don't do dry humour.

Edited May 13 by Anna Nova
thought of something else to say...

[Dorientje Woller]

14 minutes ago, Anna Nova said:

Hey, that was really interesting for me.  I went and reduced my head size (The slider in 'head' in 'Appearance' on Firestorm) from 45 to 40.  It doesn't change how I feel about my shape, but it does, for sure, make the avatar look a lot more adult.  Thanks for effort you put into that @Zarithiel.

And the 'Age Check Station' idea was mostly tongue-in-cheek.  I keep forgetting most people don't do dry humour.

Rule of thumb I am using is that the head is around half of the width of the shoulders. For example, if your shoulders are 40 wide, your head size should be around 20.

Edited May 13 by Dorientje Woller

[Marianne Little]

15 hours ago, Starberry Passion said:

People wore corsets for that look, yes, but that was for a status symbol mostly.

If you could afford a corset, you could afford servants. It was a symbol of feminine beauty and is still apart of Victorian Fashion today.

A corset stopped women from doing work, themselves. Though you have an hourglass shape, and they can enhance that but you forget

You can be slim and have an hourglass shape to your body.

You can be slim and have a pear shape to your body.

Just because you have a certain shape doesn't mean it can't be a shape in a slim shape.

https://www.quora.com/Historical-Costume-In-late-19th-century-America-did-working-class-women-wear-underclothing-like-corsets

[Zarithiel]

7 minutes ago, Marianne Little said:

https://www.quora.com/Historical-Costume-In-late-19th-century-America-did-working-class-women-wear-underclothing-like-corsets

Interesting. 

I found a video thing that has a visual difference between a working class corset and the kind the wealthy wore for the Edwardian figure. 

https://youtube.com/shorts/N8AozMsTLOw

[Kathlen Onyx]

On 5/12/2024 at 1:28 AM, Anna Nova said:

Linden Lab should set up a trained staffed Avatar Legality Checking Station in SecondLife, so people can go along and get a 'Certificate of Avatar Compliance', and then they 'seal' the shape as no-mod.  I've not quite worked out how to do the last bit, but the clever moles will know.

By doing this people can get some degree of confidence back.

You want to take away one of the most important aspects of the platform and RESTRICT creativity?  I am not 12 years old and do not need someone to tell me what is and isn't adult looking.  If I choose to ignore it or "play on the edge" then I would be prepared to face consequences.  

I have no lack in confidence with thinking LL taking the ban hammer and frivolously start banning people.  At one point I had a stalker...well it was only a few days but he said in IM some of the most vile things a person can say to someone as well as threatening to stalk me till I quit.  I reported it along with the detailed IM and what do you think happened to the person? Not a darn thing.  

As far as I know when an account is permabanned it is gone from the grid completely. This avatar has an account to this day.

1 hour ago, Anna Nova said:

Sorry, but I don't understand any of this.  What does sr*w mean?  (I don't speak American English)

So now that you are getting all this push back the OP was tongue in cheek? Usually there is some indication in the post and with yours, none.  

 

[Sammy Huntsman]

On 5/12/2024 at 2:28 AM, Anna Nova said:

Linden Lab should set up a trained staffed Avatar Legality Checking Station in SecondLife, so people can go along and get a 'Certificate of Avatar Compliance', and then they 'seal' the shape as no-mod.  I've not quite worked out how to do the last bit, but the clever moles will know.

By doing this people can get some degree of confidence back.

So I should lose my rights to edit my own custom shape? Cause I would be forced to stick into some standards that LL created. No thank you. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

So um this is the second forum post, that wants more Linden control and wants to limits it's users freedom of expression. Great idea 🤣

[Sammy Huntsman]

Why do we have people who think that Linden overreach is so much better? Yeah I already live in a country that has massive overreach and more government than we need. I want to be able to escape from that, not come back to that. 

[BillFletcher]

On 5/12/2024 at 2:28 AM, Anna Nova said:

Linden Lab should set up a trained staffed Avatar Legality Checking Station in SecondLife

Takes a number, its 167, looks up at the board, they are on 24

[Charalyne Blackwood]

Has anyone considered the cost of such a venture, and how it would be funded?

[Love Zhaoying]

I finally thought of a "positive" use-case for having the "verified child avatsr" vs. "verified adult avatar" setting.

Allow scripts to detect if someone is a "verified child avatar" vs. "verified adult avatar".

Use scripts (among another things such as allowing / ejecting users), to prevent "child avatars" from using "adult animations" in furniture.

 

[Extrude Ragu]

Not having to have every little thing checked and approved is the exact reason I chose Second Life over Sine Space

[JeromFranzic]

36 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said:

Not having to have every little thing checked and approved is the exact reason I chose Second Life over Sine Space

sine.space? Is that thing still around? It's been three years since I messed with that place. I did try it shortly after I first arrived in SL three years ago. It was well optimized when I sampled, but quite barren, even more so vs SL/OS... I think I have my account written down on a text file...??? Lol (probably in Win11, tried the Linux client but that was badly built).

[Coffee Pancake]

Second Life - Be anything you like*

* Within a  tightly defined range of acceptable looks as defined by random horny men you wont ever meet and local social norms so far removed from reality you don't stand a chance. Avatars outside of the acceptable range will be demeaned, hounded into enclave communities that daren't go out in public, accused of sexual impropriety with children and exiled from the service with all their assets stripped. This is fine.