Something to consider about Second Life beyond people playing around with some garbage behavior.

[Serena Voxel]

Prefacing this right off the starting line: this post isn't about or taking issue with anyone in specific or particular, nor is it going to bother focusing on the inherently and agreeably justifiable problems with "*****" or even those who practice it. The posts on those latter issues specifically are a haypenny-a-Linden-Dollar, and are already being handled. There're other issues needing addressing, or at least need considered addressing, as well.

This may come as a shock to some, might not to others, but there's an underlying issue that's been present in SecondLife culture and design since it's inception it seems, and continuing to let it be a problem isn't helping matters.

If you'd like a "Too Long, Didn't Read" synopsis, I'll put that at the bottom of this post, though I'd appreciate it if people read the post in full for context.

Anyways, what's the issue? Is it avatar height in general? Is it how accentuated your avatar's bits and bobs are (or aren't)? Is it how the world's scaling is handled overall? Is there a stigma towards anything previously mentioned?

In my opinion, and I'm sure others who feel the same, it's a mishmashed combination of a lot of these things.
I'm not at all discriminating upon the former two items in that list (height and bitbob sizes), nor do I want to. There're ways to know when those are getting into problematic areas or not, so nothing needing defined here. Let people be people, within fairness and reason, of course.
But the latter two (scaling and the stigma), let's look at those for now.

For starters, default scaling of avatars and the environment they are put into. Before we get into this, know that we now have tools in-world that can accurately-enough measure the heights and sizes of both avatars and objects. Tools like this are useful, and people do use them... It's not a requirement to use them, but knowing they exist as an option is neat. They didn't have that stuff in the old days. Anyways...

From a reasonable old timer or even a fresh newer user's perspective, avatars may preferably (in some cases) be sized with consideration of on-average, real-world measurements. A sort of reference to work from, if you will. (Yes, I know I said "scaling" and that the next paragraph is about "height" but patience is a virtue, as this bit helps tie into that later.)
Realistic Humanoid Height (or RHH going forward), as far as the average adult is concerned, seems to run the gamut of 156 cm to 177 cm, or 5'1" to 5'9" . There are obviously real exceptions to these averages, an example usable here is a famous basketball player (no names dropped, big guy!) having being 216 cm, or 7'1" .
The current (virtual) reality is that, surprisingly, most avatars are on average designed, shaped, and heighted at and beyond the given extreme realistic example. Most content and sizing is done with the "over-212.5 cm" avatars in mind. There are also groups of people using the aforementioned RHH to make their builds and avatars feel more comfortable to work with. Both are fine in my honest opinion.
I'm not even saying this is a problem, either. If people want to be built tall or strong (or both!) like a big-time b-ball player, have at it. Same goes for your average-sized adventuring adult exploring locales of virtually (or artificially) ancient (or other thematic) varieties. Gotta get out there and experience the world, maybe even tussle with some virtual dinos, or go for a picturesque swimming session while you're at it. All in good fun!

From a builder's perspective, and considering the former scenario of RHH scaling, most buildings and objects would tend to be sized realistically or at least with some resemblance to what they're depicting. At the very least, the build tools in-world make use of metric units, an actual global standard, meaning it'd be easy to size things appropriately to work with these numbers.
The current (virtual) reality is that scaling of objects, more often than not, tend to be scaled up to 2x, 3x, or even more times their original size, in order to take into account for the non-RHH avatars that are a more common. This in turn puts some stress on builders and content creators as well as some end-users of said content, because depending on their use case, they may have to resize the objects in question, and sometimes that isn't easy or an option. The latter may involve objects that are no-copy and/or no-modify, which are stuck at their purchased / acquired size and shape no matter what.
Again, I'm not saying this is a problem, because hey, maybe someone would like to have a comically-oversized everyday object (like a peach!) as a funny piece of furnishing, or maybe drive around their town in a vehicle of clown-car proportions. Have at that, too. Some people keep it real, as well. Nothing wrong with that, either.

So, how is any of that possibly problematic?

Think for a moment about what I said earlier, about stigma. When something is built up to and seen as "the believable and acceptable norm", some of those following this thinking sometimes go astray and also build up the stigmatic belief that all outside the supposedly defined norms isn't exactly how to go about things, and others within the astrayed group will (wrongfully) go out of their way to harass and harm those said non-conformants, regardless of the situational context. This occurs in many things, be it mental health, hobbies, interests, clothing and art styles, you get the idea. Others still would rather have the "norms" be broken entirely, or at least bent into a much different shape than they are already in, instead of getting themselves bent out of shape to conform to it. There are instigators on that side as well, but perhaps they're also doing some things wrong, as well... Not my place or desire to say.

Now, to consider how this stigma is and has been built up into SL over the past decade or more. Most avatars and objects are sized up and built in such a way not only because Residents are afraid to be mistaken for childish behavior and appearance, but also because being over 212.5 cm and having matchingly sized furnishings and objects is often seen as a "rule of thumb" to go by. This in turn leads users (some old-timers having been here for ages, some fresh off the boat to the lands of opportunity composing Second Life), to believe "everyone's super-tall, all the objects are huge, anything below these numbers and sizes isn't right." There's those on the other side of the spectrum, too, where it's said, "Hark! There's much too many Amazons in this Jungle! We must retreat!", usually a sentiment seen from the people using RHH or other scalars for their builds. The latter sometimes involves people (or even a large group of people) reclusing themselves and/or their group further off the map, gatekeeping out those that they feel don't understand or would otherwise want to cause harm, all the while making more and more isolated pockets of people in-world...

Now, put the content of these two paragraphs together, and consider another thing: the end-users who are using RHH as a common meter for their builds and avatars, instead of choosing to focus on what on the surface appears to be an established overall sizing bias that exists for some reason or another (yet isn't exactly the underlying issue in my opinion, more on that later). These Residents who use RHH to craft their content and create their avatars tend to get bullied because they are, for brevity's sake, "too short" compared to the average populace, even when using the the higher range of said height and scaling gamut. It's unfair on the formerly mentioned people just being people (again, within fair reasoning), and always wrong for anyone to bully or harass anyone. Sometimes even the inverse happens (the shorter folks pestering the taller folks), perhaps not as common, but also not morally or legitimately correct in the least.

Truth is, Second Life takes all kinds, a variety of peoples, places, things..  It's a sum of its parts. An insurmountable, difficult-to-gauge amount of parts, of all shapes, sizes, forms, everything. Most come here, to Second Life, to have a sort of vacation, an escape from the troubles and fears they experience IRL, to have fun, to socialize, to dress up, to shop, to explore, to do all sorts of things. They come here to live and enjoy their biggest dreams. As long as the things are all done within legally-acceptable reasoning, we shouldn't be at eachother's throats, fighting eachother, disrupting people, or even making things difficult for ourselves or other Residents. We should get along and, if we can, help eachother where possible. We should show respect wherever and whenever possible, at all times even, and if someone isn't on board with that idea and causing trouble, handle them appropriately.

Side-note: A theory as to why a sizing bias exists could be, given the span of time that SL has been a thing, things have changed and developed since it's conception. We have tools and things now that would have been heaps of use back in the day... Example, I've been around on SL long enough to remember the days when you had to script up a gadget to get an accurate-ish height reading on your avatar. Nowadays you can see a general amount of that info in the Avatar Shape editor. Might not be super-accurate for everyone's case, but it's appreciated. There's even things that aren't part of the program these days, which I don't mind missing out on (deformable ground-level terrain with objects and explosions in and out of combat sims, for example, that must have been a time and a half. Much older, longtime friends of mine told me about this one.) Anyways, back then, things were sized and handled differently all over the place, and because it was early on, things weren't as understood as they are now. Eventually the things evened out, mostly in the direction of "larger scales = better". Not exactly a proven truth, but that's beside the point.

Point being in that last paragraph: We now have the tools and means to build and create and make things more accurate (or inaccurate) as we want (again, within reason!) than ever before. We have the ability to enjoy SL more than when I signed up nearly 17 years ago, and definitely more than how things were even further before then. Imagine a time where there was no animesh, no avatar body physics, no uploadable mesh, no sculpties, and the "Teen Grid" was an actual thing. Now imagine having been a member of Second Life at such a time, and being someone still wishing to enjoy it in the modern day. I want to see it continue to flourish and grow more, not become a bunch of deeply isolated communities afraid to interact with eachother out of fear that their otherwise reasonable and valid avatar design choices would upset people believing this or that about their appearance into saying, "you're doing it wrong!".

What do I propose? Well, I'm definitely not saying or even suggesting anyone has to change their avatars or builds or how they create things. That's not my place to decide, nor my intention to say or do or even pursue, at all.

What would be commendable is, instead of focusing soley and entirely on cleaning up the childish messes from earlier, maybe educate people even further. Not just on how that the aforementioned childish behavior is not and should not be allowed (mostly and especially in adult contexts), but also consider fostering and building understanding and respect between Residents using Realistic Humanoid Heights, those using the current "standardized" sizing of avatars and objects, pretty much EVERYONE at that rate. Perhaps in time, and with enough positive reinforcement and education, EVERYONE will have a better understanding of what's reasonable behavior, and what isn't acceptable. At least that way, those who refuse to be informed or understand (or furthermore chose be disrespectful and hurtful about it) will be in a clearer spot to learn from and adapt to things appropriately. It works many ways, honestly.

Basically, people shouldn't have to be afraid to go out and about using realisticly-adult-heighted and/or realistically-adult-proportioned avatars and objects, nor should they discriminate and harass those outside their sizing brackets. Likewise, neither should people with unrealistically-heighted and/or unrealistically-proportioned avatars and object preferences be afraid to be what they want to be, nor should they discriminate and pick on anyone outside of their size, either. Be respectful, be considerate, let people be people (within fairness and reason, of course!). Get along, do things right, and we can all enjoy our Second Lives. That's the intention, and the goal!

That last paragraph takes precedence over everything before it, pretty much. If anything said earlier seemed off-putting, said paragraph sets forth how I really feel.

Now for the "Too Long, Didn't Read" blurb!
"Average" Avatar and Object Scaling may seem to be skewed towards the "bigger is better" direction, having some basis in a variety of historical, technical, and in-world cultural factors.
Regardless of the how's and why's... While it's not necessary to change our outwardly in-world appearance (so long as it's already within reason and adhering to the rules) or the size of our objects and creations (within same reasonings)...
We could ALL do with being thoroughly educated and properly informed into better understanding and better respecting that using realisticly-based heights, proportions, and scaling is just as valid as having unrealisticly-based sizing and forming of the same stuff be a thing, as well, vice-versa withstanding.
In turn, we could theoretically lessen the possibility of communities feeling fearful and isolating themselves further, while making it clearer for all what's appropriate and what's not.

Be respectful, don't be a pain, and handle things appropriately if they don't work out right.
Clearing up (or at least easing up) stigma that either/or is "wrong", for either direction, would work wonders.

One more thing! Maybe, just maybe... Don't let a specific avatar styling be the sole-definer of a person or their intentions, either.
Not just a thing for LL to consider, but the average SL Residents, too. Just my L$2 here...
Anime folks, Furries, Elves, Default Avatars, Bodybuilders, Inanimate Objects, Airships.. Anything and Anyone! As long as they're presented within fair reasoning, aren't blowing holes in the ol' ToS ship, and don't literally and user-intentionally look like and/or behave like a youngster being used in wrongful contexts, things should be fine and dandy, in my honest opinion.

It's all a lot to ask, a massive amount to hope for, but please, consider it.

Most importantly, we must get along, do things right, enjoy our Second Lives, and of course, never harass, abuse, or even insult others.

Sorry for the massive wall of text. I've been up since at least 2AM Eastern Time typing this up, so it's had a LOT of heart and thought put into it.
Hopefully it makes some sense to somone out there. Even if it doesn't, at least I vented my thoughts somehow.

Thank you for reading at any rate. Have an awesome weekend, everyone, and remember to do your best in all that you do!

♥~SV~♥

[Paul Hexem]

... Anybody want to summarize all that?

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

... Anybody want to summarize all that?

My avatar just seems too short because buildings are too big.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

... Anybody want to summarize all that?

My avatar just seems too short because buildings are too big.

I want to try too!

Starting here (for brevity):

8 hours ago, Serena Voxel said:

Now for the "Too Long, Didn't Read" blurb!

8 hours ago, Serena Voxel said:

"Average" Avatar and Object Scaling may seem to be skewed towards the "bigger is better" direction, having some basis in a variety of historical, technical, and in-world cultural factors.

8 hours ago, Serena Voxel said:

using realisticly-based heights, proportions, and scaling is just as valid as having unrealisticly-based sizing

8 hours ago, Serena Voxel said:

Don't let a specific avatar styling be the sole-definer of a person or their intentions

8 hours ago, Serena Voxel said:

Anime folks, Furries, Elves, Default Avatars, Bodybuilders, Inanimate Objects, Airships..

8 hours ago, Serena Voxel said:

As long as they're presented within fair reasoning, aren't blowing holes in the ol' ToS ship, and don't literally and user-intentionally look like and/or behave like a youngster being used in wrongful contexts, things should be fine and dandy

 

[Codex Alpha]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

... Anybody want to summarize all that?

I tried, but even I couldn't do it. That's an awful large cup of coffee.

[CaithLynnSayes]

8 hours ago, Serena Voxel said:

Prefacing this right off the starting line: this post isn't about or taking issue with anyone in specific or particular, nor is it going to bother focusing on the inherently and agreeably justifiable problems with "*****" or even those who practice it. The posts on those latter issues specifically are a haypenny-a-Linden-Dollar, and are already being handled. There're other issues needing addressing, or at least need considered addressing, as well.

This may come as a shock to some, might not to others, but there's an underlying issue that's been present in SecondLife culture and design since it's inception it seems, and continuing to let it be a problem isn't helping matters.

If you'd like a "Too Long, Didn't Read" synopsis, I'll put that at the bottom of this post, though I'd appreciate it if people read the post in full for context.

Anyways, what's the issue? Is it avatar height in general? Is it how accentuated your avatar's bits and bobs are (or aren't)? Is it how the world's scaling is handled overall? Is there a stigma towards anything previously mentioned?

In my opinion, and I'm sure others who feel the same, it's a mishmashed combination of a lot of these things.
I'm not at all discriminating upon the former two items in that list (height and bitbob sizes), nor do I want to. There're ways to know when those are getting into problematic areas or not, so nothing needing defined here. Let people be people, within fairness and reason, of course.
But the latter two (scaling and the stigma), let's look at those for now.

For starters, default scaling of avatars and the environment they are put into. Before we get into this, know that we now have tools in-world that can accurately-enough measure the heights and sizes of both avatars and objects. Tools like this are useful, and people do use them... It's not a requirement to use them, but knowing they exist as an option is neat. They didn't have that stuff in the old days. Anyways...

From a reasonable old timer or even a fresh newer user's perspective, avatars may preferably (in some cases) be sized with consideration of on-average, real-world measurements. A sort of reference to work from, if you will. (Yes, I know I said "scaling" and that the next paragraph is about "height" but patience is a virtue, as this bit helps tie into that later.)
Realistic Humanoid Height (or RHH going forward), as far as the average adult is concerned, seems to run the gamut of 156 cm to 177 cm, or 5'1" to 5'9" . There are obviously real exceptions to these averages, an example usable here is a famous basketball player (no names dropped, big guy!) having being 216 cm, or 7'1" .
The current (virtual) reality is that, surprisingly, most avatars are on average designed, shaped, and heighted at and beyond the given extreme realistic example. Most content and sizing is done with the "over-212.5 cm" avatars in mind. There are also groups of people using the aforementioned RHH to make their builds and avatars feel more comfortable to work with. Both are fine in my honest opinion.
I'm not even saying this is a problem, either. If people want to be built tall or strong (or both!) like a big-time b-ball player, have at it. Same goes for your average-sized adventuring adult exploring locales of virtually (or artificially) ancient (or other thematic) varieties. Gotta get out there and experience the world, maybe even tussle with some virtual dinos, or go for a picturesque swimming session while you're at it. All in good fun!

From a builder's perspective, and considering the former scenario of RHH scaling, most buildings and objects would tend to be sized realistically or at least with some resemblance to what they're depicting. At the very least, the build tools in-world make use of metric units, an actual global standard, meaning it'd be easy to size things appropriately to work with these numbers.
The current (virtual) reality is that scaling of objects, more often than not, tend to be scaled up to 2x, 3x, or even more times their original size, in order to take into account for the non-RHH avatars that are a more common. This in turn puts some stress on builders and content creators as well as some end-users of said content, because depending on their use case, they may have to resize the objects in question, and sometimes that isn't easy or an option. The latter may involve objects that are no-copy and/or no-modify, which are stuck at their purchased / acquired size and shape no matter what.
Again, I'm not saying this is a problem, because hey, maybe someone would like to have a comically-oversized everyday object (like a peach!) as a funny piece of furnishing, or maybe drive around their town in a vehicle of clown-car proportions. Have at that, too. Some people keep it real, as well. Nothing wrong with that, either.

So, how is any of that possibly problematic?

Think for a moment about what I said earlier, about stigma. When something is built up to and seen as "the believable and acceptable norm", some of those following this thinking sometimes go astray and also build up the stigmatic belief that all outside the supposedly defined norms isn't exactly how to go about things, and others within the astrayed group will (wrongfully) go out of their way to harass and harm those said non-conformants, regardless of the situational context. This occurs in many things, be it mental health, hobbies, interests, clothing and art styles, you get the idea. Others still would rather have the "norms" be broken entirely, or at least bent into a much different shape than they are already in, instead of getting themselves bent out of shape to conform to it. There are instigators on that side as well, but perhaps they're also doing some things wrong, as well... Not my place or desire to say.

Now, to consider how this stigma is and has been built up into SL over the past decade or more. Most avatars and objects are sized up and built in such a way not only because Residents are afraid to be mistaken for childish behavior and appearance, but also because being over 212.5 cm and having matchingly sized furnishings and objects is often seen as a "rule of thumb" to go by. This in turn leads users (some old-timers having been here for ages, some fresh off the boat to the lands of opportunity composing Second Life), to believe "everyone's super-tall, all the objects are huge, anything below these numbers and sizes isn't right." There's those on the other side of the spectrum, too, where it's said, "Hark! There's much too many Amazons in this Jungle! We must retreat!", usually a sentiment seen from the people using RHH or other scalars for their builds. The latter sometimes involves people (or even a large group of people) reclusing themselves and/or their group further off the map, gatekeeping out those that they feel don't understand or would otherwise want to cause harm, all the while making more and more isolated pockets of people in-world...

Now, put the content of these two paragraphs together, and consider another thing: the end-users who are using RHH as a common meter for their builds and avatars, instead of choosing to focus on what on the surface appears to be an established overall sizing bias that exists for some reason or another (yet isn't exactly the underlying issue in my opinion, more on that later). These Residents who use RHH to craft their content and create their avatars tend to get bullied because they are, for brevity's sake, "too short" compared to the average populace, even when using the the higher range of said height and scaling gamut. It's unfair on the formerly mentioned people just being people (again, within fair reasoning), and always wrong for anyone to bully or harass anyone. Sometimes even the inverse happens (the shorter folks pestering the taller folks), perhaps not as common, but also not morally or legitimately correct in the least.

Truth is, Second Life takes all kinds, a variety of peoples, places, things..  It's a sum of its parts. An insurmountable, difficult-to-gauge amount of parts, of all shapes, sizes, forms, everything. Most come here, to Second Life, to have a sort of vacation, an escape from the troubles and fears they experience IRL, to have fun, to socialize, to dress up, to shop, to explore, to do all sorts of things. They come here to live and enjoy their biggest dreams. As long as the things are all done within legally-acceptable reasoning, we shouldn't be at eachother's throats, fighting eachother, disrupting people, or even making things difficult for ourselves or other Residents. We should get along and, if we can, help eachother where possible. We should show respect wherever and whenever possible, at all times even, and if someone isn't on board with that idea and causing trouble, handle them appropriately.

Side-note: A theory as to why a sizing bias exists could be, given the span of time that SL has been a thing, things have changed and developed since it's conception. We have tools and things now that would have been heaps of use back in the day... Example, I've been around on SL long enough to remember the days when you had to script up a gadget to get an accurate-ish height reading on your avatar. Nowadays you can see a general amount of that info in the Avatar Shape editor. Might not be super-accurate for everyone's case, but it's appreciated. There's even things that aren't part of the program these days, which I don't mind missing out on (deformable ground-level terrain with objects and explosions in and out of combat sims, for example, that must have been a time and a half. Much older, longtime friends of mine told me about this one.) Anyways, back then, things were sized and handled differently all over the place, and because it was early on, things weren't as understood as they are now. Eventually the things evened out, mostly in the direction of "larger scales = better". Not exactly a proven truth, but that's beside the point.

Point being in that last paragraph: We now have the tools and means to build and create and make things more accurate (or inaccurate) as we want (again, within reason!) than ever before. We have the ability to enjoy SL more than when I signed up nearly 17 years ago, and definitely more than how things were even further before then. Imagine a time where there was no animesh, no avatar body physics, no uploadable mesh, no sculpties, and the "Teen Grid" was an actual thing. Now imagine having been a member of Second Life at such a time, and being someone still wishing to enjoy it in the modern day. I want to see it continue to flourish and grow more, not become a bunch of deeply isolated communities afraid to interact with eachother out of fear that their otherwise reasonable and valid avatar design choices would upset people believing this or that about their appearance into saying, "you're doing it wrong!".

What do I propose? Well, I'm definitely not saying or even suggesting anyone has to change their avatars or builds or how they create things. That's not my place to decide, nor my intention to say or do or even pursue, at all.

What would be commendable is, instead of focusing soley and entirely on cleaning up the childish messes from earlier, maybe educate people even further. Not just on how that the aforementioned childish behavior is not and should not be allowed (mostly and especially in adult contexts), but also consider fostering and building understanding and respect between Residents using Realistic Humanoid Heights, those using the current "standardized" sizing of avatars and objects, pretty much EVERYONE at that rate. Perhaps in time, and with enough positive reinforcement and education, EVERYONE will have a better understanding of what's reasonable behavior, and what isn't acceptable. At least that way, those who refuse to be informed or understand (or furthermore chose be disrespectful and hurtful about it) will be in a clearer spot to learn from and adapt to things appropriately. It works many ways, honestly.

Basically, people shouldn't have to be afraid to go out and about using realisticly-adult-heighted and/or realistically-adult-proportioned avatars and objects, nor should they discriminate and harass those outside their sizing brackets. Likewise, neither should people with unrealistically-heighted and/or unrealistically-proportioned avatars and object preferences be afraid to be what they want to be, nor should they discriminate and pick on anyone outside of their size, either. Be respectful, be considerate, let people be people (within fairness and reason, of course!). Get along, do things right, and we can all enjoy our Second Lives. That's the intention, and the goal!

That last paragraph takes precedence over everything before it, pretty much. If anything said earlier seemed off-putting, said paragraph sets forth how I really feel.

Now for the "Too Long, Didn't Read" blurb!
"Average" Avatar and Object Scaling may seem to be skewed towards the "bigger is better" direction, having some basis in a variety of historical, technical, and in-world cultural factors.
Regardless of the how's and why's... While it's not necessary to change our outwardly in-world appearance (so long as it's already within reason and adhering to the rules) or the size of our objects and creations (within same reasonings)...
We could ALL do with being thoroughly educated and properly informed into better understanding and better respecting that using realisticly-based heights, proportions, and scaling is just as valid as having unrealisticly-based sizing and forming of the same stuff be a thing, as well, vice-versa withstanding.
In turn, we could theoretically lessen the possibility of communities feeling fearful and isolating themselves further, while making it clearer for all what's appropriate and what's not.

Be respectful, don't be a pain, and handle things appropriately if they don't work out right.
Clearing up (or at least easing up) stigma that either/or is "wrong", for either direction, would work wonders.

One more thing! Maybe, just maybe... Don't let a specific avatar styling be the sole-definer of a person or their intentions, either.
Not just a thing for LL to consider, but the average SL Residents, too. Just my L$2 here...
Anime folks, Furries, Elves, Default Avatars, Bodybuilders, Inanimate Objects, Airships.. Anything and Anyone! As long as they're presented within fair reasoning, aren't blowing holes in the ol' ToS ship, and don't literally and user-intentionally look like and/or behave like a youngster being used in wrongful contexts, things should be fine and dandy, in my honest opinion.

It's all a lot to ask, a massive amount to hope for, but please, consider it.

Most importantly, we must get along, do things right, enjoy our Second Lives, and of course, never harass, abuse, or even insult others.

Sorry for the massive wall of text. I've been up since at least 2AM Eastern Time typing this up, so it's had a LOT of heart and thought put into it.
Hopefully it makes some sense to somone out there. Even if it doesn't, at least I vented my thoughts somehow.

Thank you for reading at any rate. Have an awesome weekend, everyone, and remember to do your best in all that you do!

♥~SV~♥

[Codex Alpha]

Let's not discourage them from writing. It is well formulated at least. It's just going to take some patience to read it is all.

[Love Zhaoying]

Has anyone else noticed the crazy-long list of keywords on this thread? It's some kind of record (for keywords added to an initial post)!

[Love Zhaoying]

5 minutes ago, CaithLynnSayes said:

Is that the "list of names" from a Holocaust Remembrance?

[Annie Evergreen]

Buildings are tall, partially due to default camera angles. There's at least one builder I can think of, who sells houses in two sizes, the regular size and a smaller one that is sized for smaller avatars or those who use lower camera angles.

[Rolig Loon]

It's been a couple of years since the last time someone made a long serious post about this concern.  It's non-trivial, but it's also not an issue that is ever going to go away.  There are too many good logical reasons why people make oversized buildings and oversized avatars. LL is not going to step in and tell everyone to start using "realistic" scales, and there are economic and social pressures that will keep creators, merchants and everyday residents from doing it. I certainly appreciate the concern. My av and alts are reasonably sized, and I build things on my own region that are appropriately scaled -- except that I prefer high ceilings, to avoid cam problems -- so I'm doing my bit. I just don't expect to see all the gigantic buildings and avatars elsewhere in SL go away.

[Rowan Amore]

10 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I want to try too!

Starting here (for brevity):

 

Anyone who has been out and about in the past 5 years will notice all this has been changing.  Sure, if you're in a build made in 2009, it's oversized.  Most things made more recently are scaled down considerably.  Not necessarily to exact RL proportions but close enough to make avatars based on RL height appear normal.  Hasn't anyone seen the drastic change in average avatar height?   These 7' tall people everyone claims are everywhere?  Where?  I don't see them.  I'm my RL height of 5'9" and rarely have anyone towering over me to that extent.

 

[CaithLynnSayes]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Is that the "list of names" from a Holocaust Remembrance?

I love the edgy joke here and there and like to walk on the edge of the rules. But i won't even go there. Not cool, my guy, not cool.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

 These 7' tall people everyone claims are everywhere?  Where?  I don't see them.  I'm my RL height of 5'9" and rarely have anyone towering over me to that extent.

Meeeeeeee.

I'm probably not who they're talking about, though.

As a very tall person (or thing, or whatever), my observation has been that many people are very short. Primarily the avatars in Reborn or Kupra. I tower waaaaay above some of those. Legacy and Kario dudes are pretty tall, though.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

As a very tall person (or thing, or whatever), my observation has been that many people are very short. Primarily the avatars in Reborn or Kupra. I tower waaaaay above some of those. Legacy and Kario dudes are pretty tall, though.

Very often in RL, I just consider "tall" people to be very close, and "short" people to be very far away.

[Rowan Amore]

7 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Meeeeeeee.

I'm probably not who they're talking about, though.

As a very tall person (or thing, or whatever), my observation has been that many people are very short. Primarily the avatars in Reborn or Kupra. I tower waaaaay above some of those. Legacy and Kario dudes are pretty tall, though.

I've never seen you out in the wild.  Since the concern is mostly about appearing too small for adult situations, I don't image that's a concern for you either.  I'm mostly IN adult regions and just don't see it.  There are a few men who are extremely tall who do use a height deformer.   They seem to be the except and not the rule. As far as females?  Less than a handful on any given day.

Edited May 10 by Rowan Amore

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

I've never seen you out in the wild.  Since the concern is mostly about appearing too small for adult situations, I don't image that's a concern for you either.  I'm mostly IN adult regions and just don't see it.  There are a few men who are extremely tall who do use a height deformer.   They seem to be the except and not the rules.  As far as females?  Less than a handful on any given day.

Oh shoot, I forgot about height deformers...need...

Yeah no, I'm not at all concerned with my own height in terms of adult content or anything. It's just a stylistic choice for certain avatars I run.

It's just that out in the wild, I see mostly shorter women and some of the guys are up there, but it doesn't seem overly noticeable. 

The ONLY person I've seen that I'd classify as a "giant" is a woman who showed up to last year's Fantasy Faire wearing one of those humongous giant avatars. Like, we'd be as tall as her ankle kind of humongous. Seriously cool avatar, but damn, lol.

[Blaise Glendevon]

 

So, some of us have basically kind of dialed it in on the conversation we've been having in other threads that people react more to facial features than Avatar height as an indication of age. 

 

 

[Yorkie Bardeen]

In the before times, in the long-ago in history back, before mesh bodies, people struggled to make reasonably proportioned shapes with the avatar mesh when it was under a certain height. You ran the risk of your sternum collapsing visually in some animation poses and the like, so people got used to breaking the virtual meter standard from an early time. Then they got into some kind of arms race about who can be bigger.

It's basically ruined SL ever since in terms of using the Linden Meter for measuring and building, since most just convert Real Meters x1.25 or so to Linden Meters and it makes you look like a wee small person sitting on a lot of even currently made furniture.

It will never be solved.

[Coffee Pancake]

10 hours ago, Serena Voxel said:

....

You're missing fundamental key details.

Avatars and builds in SL are a product of their environment. The SL camera, initial cartoonish nature of the avatars (and their structural limitations) and desire to see one's own entire avatar on screen all the time, is entirely to blame for the scaling issues we have today.

Trying to police scale is a non starter, and not for all the reasons you cite, but because people like what they like.

On average, that's going to be trash and the only scale that matters is relative.

Edited May 10 by Coffee Pancake

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

The ONLY person I've seen that I'd classify as a "giant" is a woman who showed up to last year's Fantasy Faire wearing one of those humongous giant avatars. Like, we'd be as tall as her ankle kind of humongous. Seriously cool avatar, but damn, lol.

Was she roleplaying "Attack of the 50 Foot Woman"? I remember seeing the remake of that with Darryl Hannah.

[Psyche Starling]

1 hour ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

Oh shoot, I forgot about height deformers...need...

Yeah no, I'm not at all concerned with my own height in terms of adult content or anything. It's just a stylistic choice for certain avatars I run.

It's just that out in the wild, I see mostly shorter women and some of the guys are up there, but it doesn't seem overly noticeable. 

The ONLY person I've seen that I'd classify as a "giant" is a woman who showed up to last year's Fantasy Faire wearing one of those humongous giant avatars. Like, we'd be as tall as her ankle kind of humongous. Seriously cool avatar, but damn, lol.

She's a regular there and she's cool! One day I will need to ask her how she finds such fabulous clothes for that avi. 

[animats]

Is there a good height measurement device now?

I just visited WelcomeHub to see how tall new avatars are. Around 6'2", it seems.

I have a 6'9" avatar (Roth) and a 6'2 avatar (Brox), and the bigger one seems a better fit for SL.

 

[Sparkle Bunny]

I'd like to be a more realistic height in theory, but when I try putting an avatar less than 6ft in a Linden Home it just looks ridiculous. So I adjust my size to fit my surroundings, rather than expecting the surroundings to adapt to me.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 hour ago, Psyche Starling said:

She's a regular there and she's cool! One day I will need to ask her how she finds such fabulous clothes for that avi. 

That's absolutely incredible, LOL. Scared me senseless the first time I saw it. Like WAT. 🤣