So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[Vivienne Schell]

13 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

So even if I'm wearing my modesty later and a swimsuit and I arrived on the beach before the nude adult, and it's not a nudity beach, then I'm still at fault? The word present pretty much means that. 

 

7 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

My point is that situation is that I would be breaking TOS through no fault of my own. I would not have been in a place where there was an expectation of nudity, but as soon as nudity is present I would have to leave, even if it's not allowed in that area. That means there is literally no where safe in SL for kids to be as a situation could change at any moment. Go up to a kid avi, take off your clothes, report them... 

I strongly doubt that an AR would be successful in such a case. But yes, to avoid any kind of such trouble, it might be a good idea to leave the place without much complaining a soon as possible. You also could try to AR the guy who dropped undies for:

"Promoting or normalizing sexual attraction to minors as a form of identity or sexual orientation."

But I do not think that this would be successful, either. In my opinion: The rules on what is "Moderate" did not change. Nudity is allowed there. So, if  you go to a moderate rated sim using a child avi you must expect nudity and act accordingly.

[Codex Alpha]

.

Edited May 5 by Codex Alpha

[Indy Melody]

sighs. Sometimes I think that although some people have been in Second Life for years and years and years, they have never really taken the time to actually read all of the TOS and other guidelines that are available to them.

 

[Persephone Emerald]

6 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

Are you allowed to be nude on moderate regions in public? Or only in private? That makes a difference. 

Adult avatars are allowed to be naked in Moderare regions. Child avatars are not (with the new changes to the TOS).

[Rowan Amore]

6 minutes ago, Wincil said:

Faces can tell age bodies can't? What even is that logic? Faces alone cannot People who think that don't even know how the real world works.

You have previously said that some adult females are slim and some are not which is true.  If two avatars with the same shape are standing next to each other, the face would be the next indicator of approximate age.  It's subjective, yes.  But overall, faces would be a better indicator than shapes.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Oof.

I really do feel we are now repeating ourselves. I guess, as new people join the thread, that's somewhat inevitable, but still . . .

[Codex Alpha]

3 minutes ago, Ineffable Mote said:

If the person running the child avi chooses to stay then it's no longer accidental and they know what they're doing.

No, because they could be afk. A lack of response or action is not participation.

If they engaged in anything else, then they'd be breaking the TOS.

Technically, the naked adult (in a M sim or not) is actually breaking the TOS by trying to engage in inappropriate contact or situations with a child avatar. So again it is THEY that would be inappropriate and at risk of disciplinary action.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Codex Alpha said:

No, because no matter what, it is YOUR behaviour and actions count, not what someone else does.
If they stand near me naked (if I was in a child avatar), it is them that is the weirdo, not me. Most people who would do that are either trolls or weirdos anyway, you could just AR them for harassment (after blocking and ignoring or de-rendering them).

YOU don't  have to worry.

Then it would be your word against theirs!

[brodiac90]

I honestly don't see the point of G M A anymore. They should just make it G and A and keep kids on G if M isn't even safe under the new TOS changes. 

[Codex Alpha]

2 minutes ago, Indy Melody said:

sighs. Sometimes I think that although some people have been in Second Life for years and years and years, they have never really taken the time to actually read all of the TOS and other guidelines that are available to them.

 

Nope, then they want to argue with me endlessly, when I and others DID read it.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Arielle Popstar said:

Then it would be your word against theirs!

No it wouldn't, because LL has access to the records of what went on there.

[Rowan Amore]

8 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

Ok so no child avatars in a Mature area.. I'd hope that it would be more cut and dry.. just have General areas, and Adult areas.

Adult areas can only be accessed by users with credit cards on file as a first resort, then apply the TOS regarding child avatars not be used in those areas. Solutions are quicker than people think

Adult can be accessed without credit card.on file.

[Ceka Cianci]

47 minutes ago, Aya Sweetheart said:

Used several photos of my avatar and its gone from 14 to 28 lol  I think it might have issues with non-real faces

I did a couple of my RL pics and it thought 14 and 16 ... and I'm 22 lol.  Its probably not too inaccurate though, many people think I'm a kid still... (I had the police called on me not long ago for using a "fake ID" and the police had to straighten them out that women come in all shapes and sizes, and how to know if its a real ID) so I have to deal with it in RL and deal with it in SL unless I want to look old/ugly, maybe why this all annoys me more.

 I'm 4 ft 10 inches tall.. My husband is 6 ft 5 inches tall and around 300 pounds, I'm 116 in the winter time soaking wet..

People think I'm his daughter half the time, which gets old after awhile.. All my boys are taller than me now and my youngest is 8 years old soon to be 9.. They haven't even hit their growth spurts yet.

What's really gonna get me going is if after they all get way up there, that I start getting mistaken as the little sister.. that'll be the straw that broke something..

hehehe

[Arielle Popstar]

2 minutes ago, Indy Melody said:

sighs. Sometimes I think that although some people have been in Second Life for years and years and years, they have never really taken the time to actually read all of the TOS and other guidelines that are available to them.

 

It changes annually with more gobbeldy***** and its myriads of interpretations.

[Codex Alpha]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Then it would be your word against theirs!

I guess, and quickly discarded, so that attention can be paid to people who are really a menace, rather than every random stupid encounter people might have on SL - for w/e reason.

[Kathlen Onyx]

2 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

No, because they could be afk. A lack of response or action is not participation.

If they engaged in anything else, then they'd be breaking the TOS.

Technically, the naked adult (in a M sim or not) is actually breaking the TOS by trying to engage in inappropriate contact or situations with a child avatar. So again it is THEY that would be inappropriate and at risk of disciplinary action.

Good luck with that. If I was a child and in a M rated region, no way would I go AFK.  That's just stupid. If I was going to go AFK, I'd TP myself back to my G rated location or shut SL off.

[Codex Alpha]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Adult can be accessed without credit card.on file.

Well, then that's a problem. Perhaps I got it confused with MY ability to only have visitors to my land with that. I'm surprised that is not standard for any Adult area... well there's something that can be fixed immediately. Age verification is important for adult areas and activities.

Edited May 5 by Codex Alpha

[MissSweetViolet]

13 hours ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Unless they make a specific account for adults that can't purchase child avatar things and a specific Child Avatar account that can't purchase adult things then it's very simple to get around the rules while appearing to comply in public.

Unfortunately this wouldn't stop it ether, there's nothing to stop someone determined to break the law from buying furniture as an adult avatar then rezing it and inviting an underage user.

11 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Which is loaded with personal, social, peer group and cultural bias.

.. and they really seem to have a problem with femboys and kawaii makeup. It shouldn't be surprise that a group commonly seen as a gateway to homosexuallity catches abuse reports, shame and guilt and all that.

Being actually asian and wanting a self similar adult avatar is also felt to be high risk.

There are likely more furries, however child avatars don't exist in a vacuum. They are the heart of family groups and as such underpin a very broad social graph that includes a lot of entirely adult avatars, and that starts to get into social cascade territory.

How many of your friends would it take before SL feels cold and lonely, and you move on, leaving someone else feeling cold and lonely.

 

As someone who has made Asian looks, they already get this kind of harassment. I remember once in an inworld group someone asking about Asian skins and one of the places I mentioned was Heaux and someone made a comment implying it was a children's store. It is not, it does tend to cater to more Asian pop idol looks though, and their vendor pics do tend to the younger looks. But the skins in and of themselves do not and I've made them look like adult avatars easily enough. They also get fetishized more, I've never get hit near as much as I do when wearing an Asian avatar, it's disturbing. If I get hit on that much, I can't even imaging what someone of Asian decent goes through in real life or on SL.

11 hours ago, Alwin Alcott said:

people are always free to leave when the rules can't be accepted. But i am pretty convinced that the ones that close their accounts on this new change are overreacting, as it has to many open lines at this moment to make a good choice what to do.
The only two things that change;   no A access anymore, and no genitals. That;s all.

Their were never any genitals to begin with, no mainstream avatar coms with genitals nor have I ever seen them for sale in any of the kid stores I've been in nor are such attachments encouraged, in fact quite the opposite, the kid avatars I've met would be just as creeped out as I would. Someone who have to purposefully seek them out and I would be creeped out by someone who did that.

And no that's not all, if their rule was just no genitals, I don't even think this would be as big as it is [at least not for this topic, the age appearance debaters might still by at it.] As I've stated a few times, the issue is with the lack of clarification on the now required modesty layers and what they are supose to look like if if they need to be built into the body mesh or not, as some of their wording in their FAQ would suggest.

8 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

They're a minority, but not by any stretch a "very small" minority. Minorities of residents make up the whole population if we dice up their attributes finely enough. Let's not get too eager to declare minorities dispensable. (I expect points here for refraining from quoting Niemöller.)

It's not 2007-level disruption (as I noted) but we really do ourselves no favors by pretending nobody worth consideration is affected. This is a policy change; let's not deny it affects people. As one tiny example, until this week, landlords could remain child avatars while they visited rentals they own on Adult land. It's not the end of their world that they now need to wear another avatar, but were it me I think I'd just sell the land to avoid the hassle, wouldn't you? Again, it's not 2007, but it's not nothing.

(Also consider, if it's such a negligible minority, why all the fuss about them? Because suddenly that minority—in fact a tiny minority of that minority—makes people so uncomfortable. Now they're not so negligible, huh?)

I think that's correct. It seems pretty obvious they didn't get all the right Lindens thinking about how this can actually work and what different approaches will do to the Governance workload.

Maybe not this, exactly, but something needs to be communicated about consequences of filing falsified or frivolous reports. I'd start by saying that Governance will only review reports of content visible in the standard Linden viewer using normal viewer settings. Residents accept all responsibility for anything they see when they derender.

There are self-proclaimed nude beaches, but I have some nice M-rated beachfront, casually open to the public, where nudity can break out at any time and occasionally does. I'm not going to tell anybody they can't get nude there. But nor am I going to tell child avatars they can't visit. They can report each other all they want, but I sure hope Governance has a way of efficiently ignoring all those whiny ARs.

I agree with all of this except only reviewing reports in the standard viewer, people from all viewers need to be able to report content that is a violation.

6 hours ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

Seriously?

In nearly 4 years on the grid I can count the number of times I've ever encountered a child avatar who looks like a toddler on one  hand with fingers left over ... and by child I don't mean dinkies, furrys, fantasy pixies etc ... I mean a 3-12 year old.

I spend time across every kind of G/M/A sim and event (not the hard core adult places though) all over doing various activities so I have no clue where this huge population of toddler avis are all hanging out. Heck I've only ever seen some of the most posting avatars from these forums in world less than a handful of times.

I understand why folks want to be a toddler avatar, sure, I run a female avatar 100% of my time in world and am not the 30-something redhead you all think I am , and have at it, but there are no many of you.

I would guess furries outnumber toddlers by a wide margin but would love to see numbers.

Probably because most stay in the areas they've made for themselves or with their SL families. Places like Nuggets, adoption sims, etc. I only ever wear my kid avatar if I'm going to a kid specific place, or one of the very few not strictly kid communities I know I'm safe in. any other place I change, regardless of if the rating is G or not. But there are lot of kid spaces most don't realize exists. Just events alone for example. Kids have shopping events just like adult avatars do, off the top of my head, Rosaline Event, Cloudlings, Woodland Kids, and Daydream, just to name a few. I could easily list well over 50 shops too.

6 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I had been wondering why this thread was so big, then remembered that "everyone" is getting the new TOS when they login.

Even if they don't READ the TOS / see the changes, they are probably hearing about them from others. 

If they search for "Second Life TOS changes", they probably find this thread right away.

So, we get a lot of people checking in on this thread, who are not normally Forum users.

 

I found out through TD's Discord and camp looking for change in it. I hadn't logged into SL yet that day so was trying to find out more about it.

5 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

If LL decided that that one body that goes from child to adult is too problematic, they would simply use the unique asset number associated with that product and remove it from the database.  No idea how they do.that but it's doable.  Any genitalia associated with that body, gone.  As they see reports of items, they could make decisions.  

There's a blurry line here though that another post today remined me of for adult bodies that I don't think LL thought of. I'll post it in a new thread though since Quarzt had asked us not to post more pics, but I think it'll need one to get what I'm going to address acrossed.

59 minutes ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

A lot of people do though.

What irks me the most are the Child Avi's that come into groups asking for support or questions about a product and sit there and STILL act like children. They say things like "I'm a kid, I don't understand" in that whining voice. They use child babble.  Unless it's a RP group for children,  then please act like the adult you are when asking for support help. 

I agree with this, this is one thing that does happen with a fair amount of kids even in kid communities, and unless the avatar in under 2, drive me a bit nuts. My kid avatar is age 4, but I don't talk like that, no real 4 year old does ether, for anyone else reading that wants to see that in action, just watch a later rerun of full house, I don't see Michelle talking like that at age 4-5. XD 

52 minutes ago, ILIKEPIEPIEPIEPIEPIEPIEPIEPIEPI said:

Thats not entirely fair to people who roleplay Older Teens either. The ages of 13 and below are covered 14 and above are not. You can make a Teenage avi using Maitreya, Legacy , Jake Etc off of messing with Body proportions So stating this is not that ingenious either. Using Tweenster it does not look right when your rping a In-between age.

I'll be addressing this shortly in a new thread.

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, Codex Alpha said:

I guess, and quickly discarded, so that attention can be paid to people who are really a menace, rather than every random stupid encounter people might have on SL - for w/e reason.

Conjecture. None of us has any real idea of how governance acts or doesn't. Who even knew Governance has a "tree" that they refer to for severity of infractions?

[Wincil]

18 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

You have previously said that some adult females are slim and some are not which is true.  If two avatars with the same shape are standing next to each other, the face would be the next indicator of approximate age.  It's , yes.  But overall, faces would be a better indicator than shapes.

Again faces alone cannot approximate age I doubt it is subjective and no faces are not a good indicator.(Don't get my word's twisted)

Edited May 5 by Wincil

[Codex Alpha]

1 minute ago, Kathlen Onyx said:

Good luck with that. If I was a child and in a M rated region, no way would I go AFK.  That's just stupid. If I was going to go AFK, I'd TP myself back to my G rated location or shut SL off.

Ok, but that's why I used the word 'could', in the sense that just because they're standing there doesn't mean they're participating in anything. The TOS clearly states 'activity' as a determining factor.  The nude adult who even warped to the child, for any reason, and if they purposefully took a screen shot, would be the ones trying to 'engage' with a child 'while nude', and THEY would be banned.

[Sparkle Bunny]

I take the attitude that if a kid would reasonably hang out in a setting IRL, you should be fine doing that on Moderate land. A clothes shop, a playground, a quiet cove in Bellisseria? Fine. A lingerie store, a nightclub, a beach club? I wouldn't take a child there even if it's technically allowed.

[Leslie Trihey]

8 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

If that's the case then letting kid avis on M land just seems like setting us up to fail. 

Nah, it's insanely easy to avoid bad moderate places.

Public nudity, while technically not prohibited is frowned on in most moderate regions.

[Persephone Emerald]

5 minutes ago, Codex Alpha said:

No, because they could be afk. A lack of response or action is not participation.

If they engaged in anything else, then they'd be breaking the TOS.

Technically, the naked adult (in a M sim or not) is actually breaking the TOS by trying to engage in inappropriate contact or situations with a child avatar. So again it is THEY that would be inappropriate and at risk of disciplinary action.

What if the adult avatar says, "I was dressed, but my clothes hadn't rezzed yet" or "Sorry. Clothing malfunction. I was trying to change into a bathing suit." ?

[Kathlen Onyx]

1 minute ago, Codex Alpha said:

Ok, but that's why I used the word 'could', in the sense that just because they're standing there doesn't mean they're participating in anything. The TOS clearly states 'activity' as a determining factor.  The nude adult who even warped to the child, for any reason, and if they purposefully took a screen shot, would be the ones trying to 'engage' with a child 'while nude', and THEY would be banned.

Better read and interpret that TOS again. Because that is incorrect.