So what changed in the Terms of Service?

[Starberry Passion]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Which seems wrong.  You're insisting that anyone who wants to play 15, 16 or 17 must now use a specific body with less content available instead of using Maitreya.  I doubt anyone or very few that are  playing a 10 yr old are using Maitreya.  As long as the avatars portraying under 18 stay out of adult areas, it should be ok to wear an 'adult' body.  I often see teens when out shopping using Maitreya and Prim.   Very few using tweenster because...available content.  18K apparel for tweenster.  Million and a half for Maitreya.

Prim Head is not a child head, It's a ball-jointed doll inspired head.

[brodiac90]

The adult land thing never bothered me honestly as I never went to A land anyway. Currently though my avatar is broken until the creator can come out with an update. I don't go around without clothing anyway, but there's nothing stopping people derending my clothes..... does BOM underwear count as a modesty layer until things can be updated? I'd hate to get banned because other people want to be sickos..... 

[Innula Zenovka]

3 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

What about adult women who look like 

Inori Minase | Japanese (28 years old):

 

Or like 

Shin Jae-Eun Korean (32 years old)

 

Are their looks at all typical for Japanese or Korean women of that age, though, or are they unusually youthful looking?

(Having been an estate manager on Adult regions in the past, I'm really not sure I'd have accepted "I'm role-playing someone who looks a lot younger than my age" as a reason not to ask someone to leave). 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, brodiac90 said:

The adult land thing never bothered me honestly as I never went to A land anyway. Currently though my avatar is broken until the creator can come out with an update. I don't go around without clothing anyway, but there's nothing stopping people derending my clothes..... does BOM underwear count as a modesty layer until things can be updated? I'd hate to get banned because other people want to be sickos..... 

I'd have thought that LL is not going to bring the ban hammer down hard on violators until they are reasonably sure everyone is aware of the new rule changes.

But you're right -- how long will it take for new skins with baked-on modesty layers to be generally available? Not overnight, for sure.

If you wear BOM underwear, which cannot be simply derendered, I'd think you're pretty safe. Even if a griefer does derender your clothing, you'll not be naked, and so not AR-able.

[Starberry Passion]

Just now, Innula Zenovka said:

Are their looks at all typical for Japanese or Korean women of that age, though, or are they unusually youthful looking?

(Having been an estate manager on Adult regions in the past, I'm really not sure I'd have accepted "I'm role-playing someone who looks a lot younger than my age" as a reason not to ask someone to leave). 

Majority of Asian women typically look youthful. To me, those two look adult.

But they are cute, which a lot of people dislike cute in Second life.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

2 minutes ago, brodiac90 said:

The adult land thing never bothered me honestly as I never went to A land anyway. Currently though my avatar is broken until the creator can come out with an update. I don't go around without clothing anyway, but there's nothing stopping people derending my clothes..... does BOM underwear count as a modesty layer until things can be updated? I'd hate to get banned because other people want to be sickos..... 

You have until June 30th to obtain a skin or body (?) with a built-in modesty layer, according to the FAQ.

Depending on the body you use, I imagine that content will get made fairly quickly (we can hope?).

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

46 minutes ago, Orwar said:

   On the whole modesty patch thing .. It feels as if, whilst the rules as written in combination with just a sprinkle of common sense makes it very clear that what you want to get at is 'no effing genitalia on kiddies'. But, also, the rules as written, does not in any way, shape, or form explicitly state that. 

   If it's an 'on the skin layer' thing, well, there's absolutely nothing stopping people from drawing nipples or ahems on a tattoo layer and putting it on top. 

No there isn't. But at that point the person who sold that resident the skin layer is no longer included in the penalty of the resulting AR.

Requiring the skin have the modesty layer baked in means they're planning to hold skin makers that market skins for child avatars accountable if they market them without that layer. It also means that if you're selling adult skins you'd be wise to clearly market them as such.

 

Right now if I go buy an adult skins, most brands have the nipples and for female skins the lower part baked in - despite the fact that the lower part can as a result stretch across the entire buttocks and make it look like you need to buy a bidet or some tissue paper...

They then often sell a tattoo layer to hide these.

If I were an adult skin maker, I'd flip that logic in my next release cycle. No longer include the nipples or lower bits in the base skin. Have a tattoo layer for each of these. Most people who want to "show of their naked parts" buy attachments for higher resolution - HD nipples (usually included as a setting in the body itself) and props for the lower bits.

So a skin maker is actually safest just no longer including those by default, and then baking on an entire "non-sensual" underwear layer for any skin marketed to an avatar design of someone under the age of 18 (the legal age in California, where this matters as that's where LL is).

 

Edited May 2 by UnilWay SpiritWeaver

[Rowan Amore]

10 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

Prim Head is not a child head, It's a ball-jointed doll inspired head.

I didn't say it was a.child head.  I said people who represent as tweens/teens often use.that head.

[Angelina Sinclair]

5 minutes ago, NymphAspect said:

As I pointed out earlier, though, there is very little if no objective way to determine if an avatar is 17 vs 18. This is easily done in RL because you have a birthdate and a license and can be verified to be the age you claim - there is no such feature in SecondLife.

Additionally, and people seem to forget this, an 18-year-old person looks EXCEPTIONALLY young by most standards. I had the opportunity to go back to college as an adult learned and I can tell you that a good portion of the 18-year-old freshman students definitely qualified as "child-like." Keep in mind, too, that there are, depending on when one's birthday is, 18-year-old High School students. It is literally possible, at least in the United States, to legally get into the pron industry and still be a High School student.

Trying, therefore, to make some kind of objective ruling about avatars that sit around that blurry line between adult and minor, is nearly impossible. I don't really know what the answer is.

 

Agreed, you can't tell apart a 17 year old vs an 18 year old. However that's not the line that should be argued about. The line I'm talking about is a teenager vs an adult, like someone the age of 12 -15. These are the kind of avatars that would show up, that you could tell, or should be able to tell, they aren't a full adult.

It's not a matter of height, breast or butt size; it's a matter of the proportions and how they related to each other that can help you determine if someone is using an underage avatar; intentional or not. It's a hard thing to explain in text only so in the past I gathered material with images and references that artists use for drawing children and teens as well as images clothing designers use to to make clothes. That's where I pulled them from anyway: https://sta.sh/262i8ds0dep

We don't need to worry about the barely 18 types. What we need to worry about are those that sit in the middle between child ava sand adult avas -- the teenagers and minor avatars.

 

 

[SynergyOne]

14 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

What about adult women who look like 

Inori Minase | Japanese (28 years old):

Or like 

Shin Jae-Eun Korean (32 years old)

 

They would certainly be banned lets not pretend. LL and the Kupra Karen Squad of maxed out obesity have now determined who and what constitutes beauty and being a real person by being exaggerated proportions.

[Rowan Amore]

She's 15.  

[Persephone Emerald]

20 minutes ago, Madi Melodious said:

The modesty requirement is ridiculous if you are wearing cloths or have nothing under the body.  It breaks years of content and makes the investments in people avatars now worth less

I agree. Wearing BOM underwear or alpha layers should be sufficient. If when mesh hasn't rendered or is derendered, the avatar's genitalia not visible, that should be sufficient. I also don't think babies and young children should have to have their nipples covered. That's just silly. Toddlers of either gender will routinely run around in just their diapers, especially at a pool or beach. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

4 minutes ago, Angelina Sinclair said:

It's not a matter of height, breast or butt size; it's a matter of the proportions and how they related to each other that can help you determine if someone is using an underage avatar; intentional or not. It's a hard thing to explain in text only so in the past I gathered material with images and references that artists use for drawing children and teens as well as images clothing designers use to to make clothes. That's where I pulled them from anyway: https://sta.sh/262i8ds0dep

The one that describes heights at specific points in age, does not best define a child avatar. As there adults that have pituitary issues or are shorter than the average adult. Also SL height is not 1:1 to RL height. Which basically what you are saying, is you want height standards and all adult avatars to be at a certain height. To be classified as an adult. 

Edited May 2 by Sammy Huntsman

[Angelina Sinclair]

19 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

What about adult women who look like 

Inori Minase | Japanese (28 years old):

Or like 

Shin Jae-Eun Korean (32 years old)

 

Why are you using RL photos of people and not avatars as an example?

This does not help move the topic towards solutions.

[Innula Zenovka]

5 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

Majority of Asian women typically look youthful. To me, those two look adult.

But they are cute, which a lot of people dislike cute in Second life.

To pursue my analogy with UK prosecution policy, I can't imagine any prosecutor would think an indecent image of a model who looked like either of those women could be the subject of a successful prosecution, even though the younger woman might have difficulty buying a drink without her ID

[Keira Linden]

42 minutes ago, Cristiano Midnight said:

So they investigated themselves and found no wrong doing. This is my shocked face 😐

Hi Cristiano,  this was addressed in the first blog post.  Specifically "As owner of Linden Lab, I have initiated a thorough investigation, both internally and with external partners, to review whether or not there have been any violations of our company and community policies by employees, contractors, or community members. "  Today's blog post is the result of the conclusion of those investigations.

 

[Angelina Sinclair]

bah double post

Edited May 2 by Angelina Sinclair

[Starberry Passion]

5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

She's 15.  

She looks 25

[Madi Melodious]

How about when I wearing nothing there?  Do I still need this modesty layer if there is nothing there?  I mean the complete lack of private parts, not just alphaed out.

 

[Luna Bliss]

[Sammy Huntsman]

Just now, Angelina Sinclair said:

Why are you using RL photos of people and not avatars as an example?

This does not help move the topic towards solutions.

I mean they do use real world models in video games. Good example is Stellar Blade, they scanned a Korean Models body, to create Eve. 

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Madi Melodious said:

How about when I wearing nothing there?  Do I still need this modesty layer if there is nothing there?  I mean the complete lack of private parts, not just alphaed out.

 

Are you a child avatar? If you are, then creators are required to bake on undergarments in those regions. 

[Rowan Amore]

Just now, Starberry Passion said:

She looks 25

Well, it's the reverse of what you were showing.  How someone looks is indicative of how.old we THINK they are.  

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

What is or isn't a Child AV is not something you can make a checklist of things to declare for. It's a gestault of the overall effect and how the account holder presents themselves.

Like the old SCOTUS ruling on obscenity stated so long ago, they declared that they couldn't tell you want it was per se, but everyone knew it when they saw it and it was not something rational people actually tended to disagree on unless they were arguing just to be difficult or to try and get away with things or unfairly persecute.

People know what a child AV when they encounter one.

It's not something that tends to be unclear.

But making a checklist to define it will never work.

When someone "gets it wrong" and goes after or fails to go after" someone they're not doing that because they don't know - they're doing it to make trouble. These claims of "I was banned because of..." or "...I saw some OMG stuff going on" always include an added layer of drama.

 

We're just going to have to trust in subjective judgment of people who are NOT part of that drama. They'll only get it wrong when they decide to join in the drama.

[Kylie Jaxxon]

I don't think we will ever see LL define what is a child avatar to them, and rightly so.  There are just too many variables.  I believe they are going to work on a one-on-one basis, the overall look, concept, language, circumstances, etc of each case brought before them.