What does a new mesh body need to take off?

[SodaGnome]

I always wonder why some body makers didn't make the head as well. It can't be that much harder. Then there would be zero neck seam problems. It's like "Hey I'm going to make a mesh avatar to sell! "Oh great idea" "Yea but I'm not going to include the head." Wat?" "Meh heads are hard." Imagine if the makers of barbie were like, "Let's just make the bodies, heads are harder." Then barbies would have a neck seam where the colors of the plastic didn't match exactly as they were made by different factories. 

[steeljane42]

37 minutes ago, SodaGnome said:

I always wonder why some body makers didn't make the head as well.

They do, sometimes, and it's awful. E.g. Signature's male heads, or even better (worse?) example, that horrible "aesthetic" body+head. No one into avatars customization and who doesn't want to look like a mess replaces those with something better. Slink was making heads too back in the days, lots of heads. I can probably count on fingers times I saw people using their heads. Old TMP had heads as well, those were a bit more common during pre-bento days.

So as history shows, it's just a waste of time and efforts.

Edited December 29, 2023 by steeljane42

[Janet Voxel]

4 hours ago, SodaGnome said:

I always wonder why some body makers didn't make the head as well.

A couple of creators tried it. One, I forget who, made a complete avatar. Slink made heads and body. Most people opted for Catwa or Lelutka.

People opted for buying the head and body separately early on and it became the norm and it’s been that way ever since.

People get really tribal about which body they use. Practicality is not the name of the game when it comes to either of those. It’s what looks best. Part of it is, there is a finite number of shapes you can do. It wouldn’t be long before people started looking the same. Mainly though, it just never took off.

Come to think of it……there might be space for someone to come out with a complete avatar, but it would have to be really, really good.

[Dorientje Woller]

1 hour ago, Janet Voxel said:

A couple of creators tried it. One, I forget who, made a complete avatar. Slink made heads and body. Most people opted for Catwa or Lelutka.

Funny that only those two are getting mentioned ... while Akeruka, LOGO, LaQ and others were also around. My first mesh head with bento animations was from Mayreal. 

[MissSweetViolet]

6 hours ago, SodaGnome said:

I always wonder why some body makers didn't make the head as well. It can't be that much harder. Then there would be zero neck seam problems. It's like "Hey I'm going to make a mesh avatar to sell! "Oh great idea" "Yea but I'm not going to include the head." Wat?" "Meh heads are hard." Imagine if the makers of barbie were like, "Let's just make the bodies, heads are harder." Then barbies would have a neck seam where the colors of the plastic didn't match exactly as they were made by different factories. 

I'm rather glad they don't, I had that with Altamura, and while they did allow you to hide the head, that just throws unneeded geometry into the mix when I'm just gonna hide it and use one of my Lelukta heads anyway.

Edited December 29, 2023 by MissSweetViolet
Spelling corrections

[Janet Voxel]

29 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

Funny that only those two are getting mentioned ... while Akeruka, LOGO, LaQ and others were also around. My first mesh head with bento animations was from Mayreal. 

Because most people did go with Catwa mainly, then Lelutka early on.

[Anna Nova]

A lot of it, both with bodies and heads is all about confidence that you can make what you want with it.  I got a free LOGO head the other day, it's fine - I mean really good - I just can't make it look the way I want it to, and the instructions are rubbish - there isn't a go-to place (that I have found) where I can learn how to configure it.  With Lelutka and Maitreya, on the other hand, there are no end of resources to show you how to get the look you want, but I already know, from years of trying.  LaraX Petite, for instance is just like Lara Petite, which is just like Lara, and I have been doing that for years.  Lelutka Noel feels the same as Nova(still my go-to head).  It's hard to shift people to a new line.

[SodaGnome]

3 hours ago, Janet Voxel said:

People opted for buying the head and body separately early on and it became the norm and it’s been that way ever since.

 

It's interesting to me and wonderful really. Human creation and expression with all of it's outcomes. Cause and effects. It's probably mostly because individuals create second life content and not professional game & virtual world developers. If a developer made the heads not match the bodies, it would be part of the intentional game or virtual world design as they wanted one task to be trying to get the head and body to match exactly in color and tint shade etc. Gives people in virtual world something to do. Like adding a money element or needing housing or food or whatever. But in Second Life that was no ones intent it was just the outcome. It's just body makers wanted to focus only on that as heads would be a whole other thing. Game developers or virtual world designers could also have set restricted game color pallets, color sources, so everything would match perfectly. But then that limits creativity.

One unintended side effect is probably creating a demand for some item to hide the seam like a choker or neck item. But then I opted for that solution and kinda got yelled at and called lazy for fixing it that way but I am happily lazy! Plus I like the look of the item. 

 

[Dorientje Woller]

53 minutes ago, Anna Nova said:

A lot of it, both with bodies and heads is all about confidence that you can make what you want with it.  I got a free LOGO head the other day, it's fine - I mean really good - I just can't make it look the way I want it to, and the instructions are rubbish - there isn't a go-to place (that I have found) where I can learn how to configure it.  With Lelutka and Maitreya, on the other hand, there are no end of resources to show you how to get the look you want, but I already know, from years of trying.  LaraX Petite, for instance is just like Lara Petite, which is just like Lara, and I have been doing that for years.  Lelutka Noel feels the same as Nova(still my go-to head).  It's hard to shift people to a new line.

Open your mouth in the LOGO VIP chat ... I might see it and help you out with the configuration. And concerning you can't make it look like you want, sorry but each mesh head has it limitations whether that is from Akeruka, LaQ, LOGO, LeLUTKA or CATWA.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Dorientje Woller

[SarahKB7 Koskinen]

What does a new mesh body need to take off?

Wings.

😜

[Dorientje Woller]

1 minute ago, SarahKB7 Koskinen said:

What does a new mesh body need to take off?

Wings.

😜

I was thinking of propellers, jet engines, rocket boosters ...

[Ceka Cianci]

41 minutes ago, Dorientje Woller said:

I was thinking of propellers, jet engines, rocket boosters ...

Red Bull

[Eddy Vortex]

On 12/28/2023 at 11:49 AM, MissSweetViolet said:

I can only speak for what would make me invest in a body; Which is price, availability, design, and support. My first mesh body was Altamura, and while not bad by any means, wasn't something that ever really seemed to stick long term for me, this was just a bit before BoM came on, and I hated appliers, having spend several months prior to getting it using a system avatar. So I was so glad when they added a BoM hud. But I also hated the huge amount of script usage and complexity

After that I ended up going to LucyBody, also very nice, but like Altamura never really felt right and I hated the Maitreya clothing/slink shoe combo (this was before LucyBody got that update.

Then I went to Kalhene with their free test body Ariadna, and then over to their full Anya body once it was release. Everything was amazing at first, then came Erika, and she started to package her Anya body with her Transgender body Alexa into the new all in one Analexa, which was fine, I was good with that, but then she stopped updating with empty promises of Analexa getting Erika's updates. I even politely messaged asking if it would be updated, she assured me that it would receive them in a few days, it didn't days, weeks months, went by, and she became incredibly hostile to anyone asking about it [She had formerly be quite nice to talk with and get questions answered and I had loved how she handled support]. After nearly 6 months of this run around I finely told others to be careful, because it could easily start to reflect on Erika down the line. I was met with the "Rude responses of the Kalhene cult chat telling me I didn't know what it took to make a body and it would come in time and Analexa would get it's updates when she could get them (it didn't). I left the group and began demoing other bodies, Then a few hours after leaving said group got a nasty im from the creator alone with the supposed rubbing in my face that Analexa would receive updates that week, for simply pointing out what she had promised and failed to deliver half a year prior.

Needless to say I went from being a hardcore supporter of Kalhene [had she not done all that, I'd honestly probably still be using it, as I had being a major fan and supporter of Anya/Analexa], to completely disillusioned. So I ended up going with Maitreya since that was my whole inventory [since Anya/Analexa had fit Maitreya like a glove], and because I liked the over look of the body still, compaired to the others I had demoed. I've not looked back. I still miss how good the customer support was back before Erika came into play, cause no other place has had that same level of support that Kalhene once had, but over all have been far happiest with Maitreya, and have been loving their LaraX body.

So yeah, tldr; body design, support both clothing and customer wise and price [I didn't even glace over to Legacy, GenX or Reborn after seeing the price] are the things that motivate me to keep/drop a body.

I sometimes forget why the Maitreya shoes doesn't fit on my LucyBody until a "Slink feet, oh yeah" light bulb goes on. XD  But I'm not mad about it. I'm guessing that's how the LucyBody owner managed to avoid a DMCA takedown.

My experience closely mirrors yours with Kalhene. They are shooting themselves in the foot for future sales with abysmal customer service. I would've considered getting Erika for an alt or two if they hadn't pissed off the Analexa customers. Gee, I wonder why Erika isn't as popular as Reborn & Lagacy.

Speaking for myself as a consumer, a new body would have to be distinctively unique, have mod permissions, have enough clothing & skin support from the gate, and backed by good customer service. The female body market is oversaturated so a creator would have to offer something that other garden-variety cis bodies don't have. Modifiable permissions has become important to me. I like being able to manually control the shine and gloss, and develop BoM nails. Belleza, CZ Slim, and Anatomy allow me to do that. I could never go back to a no-mod body.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Eddy Vortex

[Ayashe Ninetails]

16 minutes ago, Eddy Vortex said:

I sometimes forget why the Maitreya shoes doesn't fit on my LucyBody until a "Slink feet, oh yeah" light bulb goes on. XD  But I'm not mad about it. I'm guessing that's how the LucyBody owner managed to avoid a DMCA takedown.

This was updated. Try getting a redelivery! The Lucybody HUD now has a setting to match Maitreya feetsies - the High Special option:

 

I believe the other options should all still fit Slink (haven't tried - I have my alt living in Maitreya heels now).

[Persephone Emerald]

I don't think we need more female mesh bodies, except maybe a more athletic shape? Maitreya Lara, LaraX & Legacy fill the Barbie & natural mid-size body niche. Reborn, Kupra & GenX fill the curvy & pear-shape niche. I'm slightly annoyed that I have to set my leg length to 20 on LaraX to keep my proportions relatively realistic, but I can manage with that.

Maybe we could use a more realistically proportioned body?

Maitreya Lara classic shown, from Strawberry Singh's blog, February 5, 2018.

We need more male mesh bodies, but it's hard to get guys to buy them. Male avatars deserve to have more realistic options for how their bodies can look.

Signature Gianni shown, also from Strawberry Singh's blog, February 5, 2018.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Persephone Emerald

[Theresa Tennyson]

On 12/29/2023 at 3:33 AM, SodaGnome said:

I always wonder why some body makers didn't make the head as well. It can't be that much harder. Then there would be zero neck seam problems.

1) Mesh bodies started becoming popular pre-Bento. A pre-Bento head would be very difficult to customize and everyone wearing a body-and-head combination would have an almost identical face.

2) Even post-Bento mesh heads don't have the wide range of looks in a single head that you can get by using separate heads.

[Dorientje Woller]

4 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

Maybe we could use a more realistically proportioned body?

What is a realistically porportioned body as we humans aren't realistically porportioned by nature?

[Persephone Emerald]

1 hour ago, Dorientje Woller said:

What is a realistically porportioned body as we humans aren't realistically porportioned by nature?

I'm thinking of how legs tend to be too long, while arms tend to be too short. (Most of us are aware of the T-rex arms problem.) I'm also not a fan of small heads with wide shoulders (a problem with some male bodies).

Of course, we can address these problems by adjusting our shape, but if I have to set my leg sliders to a length if 20 to approach a realistic length, then the mesh body is not aiming for realistic proportions. I don't mind if some people prefer Barbie doll proportions, but I'm suggesting realistic proportions as another alternative. 

Here's another alternative, which I think current bodies and heads can already accommodate - anime and furry shapes. SL can have both realistic and fantasy shapes.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Persephone Emerald
To add picture

[AmeliaJ08]

I'll just throw in my wish: Kupra Kups but with a booty that can actually be tamed. No, it probably wouldn't be popular but I'd buy it the upper portion of that body is gorgeous!

For a more serious answer though I think the male market is probably where it might be possible to find some success, it is far less saturated. I made a mAlt and to be honest wasn't really satisfied with any of the options, settled on Jake eventually but... he's imperfect. It got me thinking though, why hasn't a "fully equipped" male body been attempted? I suppose this also applies to the female market but we have seen a couple of examples of this.

 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by AmeliaJ08

[Janet Voxel]

16 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

1) Mesh bodies started becoming popular pre-Bento. A pre-Bento head would be very difficult to customize and everyone wearing a body-and-head combination would have an almost identical face.

Exactly this!

[Anna Nova]

14 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I'm thinking of how legs tend to be too long, while arms tend to be too short. (Most of us are aware of the T-rex arms problem.) I'm also not a fan of small heads with wide shoulders (a problem with some male bodies).

Of course, we can address these problems by adjusting our shape, but if I have to set my leg sliders to a length if 20 to approach a realistic length, then the mesh body is not aiming for realistic proportions. I don't mind if some people prefer Barbie doll proportions, but I'm suggesting realistic proportions as another alternative. 

Here's another alternative, which I think current bodies and heads can already accommodate - anime and furry shapes. SL can have both realistic and fantasy shapes.

I am pretty sure Buddha didn't have those proportions.  Al least none of his statues do.   

Designers please note the Adult Female in these drawing has realistic breasts and waist.  (I wanted an emoji with the tongue sticking straight out, but there is no realism in emojiland)

Edited December 31, 2023 by Anna Nova

[Marianne Little]

I think a body for men that is as big as Aesthetic could be popular. Aesthetic is really old.

A body should not have a new UV. I see barely any skins for Aesthetic. It is recolored versions.

Maybe it could have 2 versions, a custom UV body and a SL UV body, in the same pack? If people do not have to invest money for a new UV body, they can use the SL UV body with all the old skins and tattoos. And if creators want to pick up on more details, everyone with this body can switch over to the new UV and keep all the rigged content. A new UV could be as popular as EvoX, if people already had a body ready for it.

Aesthetic is popular among the male furry population. A body need to be mod, for it to win support in this market. Easy to get content creator packs for the professional designers. Personal creator packs included with every body.

I think big Hulk bodies is yuck, but (most) men want big muscles.

[Marianne Little]

I think the female body market is

1. Thin/medium sized
2. Top heavy (exaggerated breasts)
3. Bottom heavy (average/small breasts, wide hips and butt)
4. Hourglass, big breasts, wide hips, big butt
5. Flat chests, big breasts, rolls and squishy
6. Special bodies, anime, special directed for the furry market

-----------------------------------

I think the top 4 (5) places is already taken. I am sure Maitreya will release a LaraX with the flat chest. And all the addons for Reborn makes it very hard for another thicc body. Maybe a body that comes with all the juicy and squishy parts already in place could take off... maybe... with expert marketing, introduction price and creators already on board.

That leaves a market for special bodies. Perhaps a body with all the asian clothes designers on board, directly aimed at the Anime and Loli market. Kenomo is super old, is anybody using it at all? That could be something. A body that can use V-tech rigged clothes could be popular. I do not think V-tech could sue the creator of such a body. It would be a new product, same way as the bodies that can use Maitreya clothes.

Maitreya is No Modify. Even if very few users need modify rights, the market part that want Mod is very hard to sway over to a No Mod body. I am not sure how much it hurts Maitreya that it is No Mod, but in this very oversaturated market for female bodies, Maitreya should make Lara and LaraX bodies Mod as soon as possible. Every customer count.

I am not saying this because I want a very thin body, but it is an opening for a body where Kate Moss is the thickest body you can make. A body that appeal to those with an unhealthy view of their body. The question was not for a body that would be 'responsible' to make.

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Despite spending the majority of my time in SL as primarily non-human and often some variety of creature/animal, I'd actually hate to see more bodies specifically made for alternative  avatars.

As it stands, on the furry and fantasy side, we've got a pretty large assortment of independent body parts, many of them rigged - heads, tails, feet, legs, paws and hands, wings, claws, horns, hooves, rigged fur decoration, and more - and everything requires third-party designer support in the way of textures. Mod and skin kits will always specify which particular heads/feet/tails/whatever textures are included for (either as BOM layers or textures we have to manually set in the Edit menu), and it can take quite a while to find a kit that fits your unique configuration of parts as it is. The ONLY constant in that equation, though, is the body. Wear Maitreya, wear Legacy, wear Reborn, wear Jake, wear male Legacy, and more recently, wear Anatomy - you're golden. Wear Kupra or Kario or Gianni or CZ Slim, you'll be alright with some of the more popular mods. Start throwing brand new animal/creature-specific bodies into the mix, and that's going to put even more strain on creators in that realm. 

Not to mention clothing would be a disaster. The way things are now, I could turn myself into a griffin and still have full access to my entire wardrobe, then change into a reindeer and wear all the same stuff.

I'm not in the anime community, so I don't know how they'd feel about having bodies made for them and what specific quirks exist in that market. If anything, I'd guess they probably want a greater assortment of updated heads. From what I've seen on Flickr from those using the Utilizator heads, they're primarily wearing the usual bodies - Maitreya, Legacy F, and Reborn.

[Ceka Cianci]

23 hours ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I'm thinking of how legs tend to be too long, while arms tend to be too short. (Most of us are aware of the T-rex arms problem.) I'm also not a fan of small heads with wide shoulders (a problem with some male bodies).

Of course, we can address these problems by adjusting our shape, but if I have to set my leg sliders to a length if 20 to approach a realistic length, then the mesh body is not aiming for realistic proportions. I don't mind if some people prefer Barbie doll proportions, but I'm suggesting realistic proportions as another alternative. 

Here's another alternative, which I think current bodies and heads can already accommodate - anime and furry shapes. SL can have both realistic and fantasy shapes.

What I think happens with the short arms and the wide hips nowadays is, other than it probably being more of a type of look people prefer.. It's something that can't be helped..

With humans we can get more meat  on our hips which make things look like the shoulder joints are in more, where in reality it is just more meat on the bones..

In second life, if we have to move the bones to make it look like more meat in the hips.. When that happens  the shoulder and the hip bones become unaligned..  Then the hands will start to clip into the body.. When that happens  a lot raise the arms up until the clipping stops rather than widening the shoulders.. That or hunt for an AO with curvy or full figure animations..

A lot of the charts we see for body proportions is mainly for artists and a starting point.. Some will say 7 heads  high,some say 7.5, some say 8.. then 2 heads wide for the shoulders or 2.5 for the shoulders.

In reality for the most part humans joint and bone wise, front to back and side to side there is more consistency with joint bone proportions, where it varies more and we have more freedom to adjust from head to feet.. Some have longer bodies and short legs, some have shorter bodies and longer legs, some  are more in the middle ans so on..

Rigged mesh bodies we just can't add the meat to the bones so the joints get moved out instead..

As far as short arms for men and proportions in general.. Honestly, A lot of men that I talk with really don't seem to get into it as much.. many just get a look they are happy with and hit the road and stay that way for years and years.. hehehe

The ones that do though, they make some pretty fine bodies.. hehehe

 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Ceka Cianci