"Experience profile" TP systems - Anyone else not keen?

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Kerri Macarthur said:

    Act on your control inputs
    Animate your avatar
    Attach to your avatar
    Track your camera
    Control your camera
    Teleport you
    Force your avatar to sit
    Change your environment settings

A script in any item you attach, without asking for any permission, can

• act on your control inputs,
• animate your avatar,
• rack your camera,
• control your camera, and
• teleport you.

The only things Experiences can do in addition are change environment settings and force your avatar to sit on another object (which aren't especially common nor disruptive, but they are useful for some effects).

These are not exotic things, and can be readily disabled in the viewer—not really different from removing an attachment.

But more importantly, actually abusive Experiences can be reported and disabled in one stroke by the Lab. That's a lot more control than they can readily exercise over all instances of an abusive attachment.

[sirhc DeSantis]

Interesting. I can see both (actually thought out) points of view.  It should be an addon - not a deal breaker.

I have played with both 'experiences' (stupid name) and 'RLV' (used to have a more stupider but apt name) and use the second for - some quite mundane things. The first gives me nothing I am interested in building that I can't already grab (as Qie says above). The second I never really got in to.  Scriptwise anyway

Now I *do* go 'okie dokie why not' for the first if someone thinks I ought to but mostly.. what was the point of the sitter one again? Still not worked that one out.  Or a dance thing that asks 'is it ok to animate your avatar for eternity plus all this extra stuff'? Had one the other day. Sure, but why ask 'is it ok to animate' when I clicked on the one next to it the day after. Can't remember the last time I clicked on something to dance and went 'oh noes my soul is lost'. Other things, perhaps =^^=

Its a half erm torso part never explained properly nor implemented.

[Kerri Macarthur]

3 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

 

What you were asking for? In that other thread? That's what "experiences" do. That's why they exist.

 

 

Seriously what are you smoking? 

Nice attempt at scoping my posts for some dirt to throw at me but its not even close to the same thing.

Sit down, you're embarrassing yourself 

[Kerri Macarthur]

3 hours ago, Qie Niangao said:

A script in any item you attach, without asking for any permission, can

• act on your control inputs,
• animate your avatar,
• rack your camera,
• control your camera, and
• teleport you.

The only things Experiences can do in addition are change environment settings and force your avatar to sit on another object (which aren't especially common nor disruptive, but they are useful for some effects).

These are not exotic things, and can be readily disabled in the viewer—not really different from removing an attachment.

But more importantly, actually abusive Experiences can be reported and disabled in one stroke by the Lab. That's a lot more control than they can readily exercise over all instances of an abusive attachment.

I think at this point you are being deliberately obtuse. Seems I touched a nerve. Not my fault this whole idea is invasive and inappropriate. 

You know its not the same. I have never worn a scripted item that has changed my environment settings. And everything is revoked when you remove it. 

However, these scripts take more permissions and can engage them at any time in any place. Detaching an object will not revoke this. Who is going to bother fiddling around in the viewer preferences every time they visit a store or something? Nobody.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Kerri Macarthur

[Solar Legion]

Bit late to the party and to close that barn door. A decent enough show of paranoia though - thanks, needed that.

Now then ... Go and learn about Experiences.

Simple enough system to use.

As for the entire RLV vs Experiences quibbling back and forth: One side has remained objective, one has not (and it isn't the side demonizing Experiences).

[Rowan Amore]

37 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Bit late to the party and to close that barn door. A decent enough show of paranoia though - thanks, needed that.

Now then ... Go and learn about Experiences.

Simple enough system to use.

As for the entire RLV vs Experiences quibbling back and forth: One side has remained objective, one has not (and it isn't the side demonizing Experiences).

That one needs to obtain an Experience key directly from LL and that you have to be a premium account member to obtain one, makes it safer than any RLV or other scripted object as far as I'm concerned.  Any yahoo can make, sell or pass around nefarious scripted objects using a throw away alt.  LL has a record of all experience keys passed out.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 12/10/2023 at 3:13 PM, Gabriele Graves said:

I've shared my feelings on this a few times before so I'll be relatively brief.  I don't accept experiences except where I am forced to by LL and then I generally avoid those regions once I become aware of those stealth experiences which cannot be revoked (very poor form in my opinion).

My reasons are about giving up control of my avatar to the whims of another whom I haven't met and therefore have no established trust with.  If the experience is necessary, I don't mind being sent home though obviously places that allow me to wander anyway are very much appreciated.

I don't mind (and have never minded) popups asking for my permission to do things when I interact with objects in the way that some find inconvenient, in fact I like that I get to choose on a case by case basis when I choose to interact with something and not at any other time.

That said, these days I do use collision-based experience teleporters for portals on my own lands.  These are for private use only though and are set to only allow my partner and I access.  These portals don't offer the experience to others and wont teleport them should they search and join the experience manually.  Of course, we both can always trust that I will not abuse the experience and so there are no issues with us using them.

In addition, I don't enable anyone else's experiences on my lands.

I  have to chuckle at your "distrust of thee and trust for me" approach to SL which is so very, very typical.

I'm always amazed at the people who feel entitled to deploy -- and also meekly accept the consequences for even their friends --  of harsh, nasty land ban orbs that bounce them away or teleport them all the way home, but when it comes to clicking "yes" on an experience, they feel as if they have been terribly violated.

When you say you "don't enable anyone else's experiences," you're telling me that you refuse to allow a ChicChica or cinoe beverage deliver into your hands smoothly, as well as the hands of your guests. OK, so noted.

In part, the Lindens are to blame for allowing their world to become a p2p shooter game in places, with "unsafe" land and teleporters that return you home as if you are in a MMORPG game killing monsters. This is all beneath our dignity. 

Even so, I think I can tell the difference between some BDSM type forced-animation in somebody's experience set, and a...teleport to the upper floor in their store. Plus, I'm in a virtual world and can log off any time.

I have both commissioned Experience scripters and deployed them in quests (nowhere else that I can think of) in order to make people magically whoosh to a place if they click on a potion (the Experience TPs are preferred to landmarks across sims because you don't get the Linden splash ad as you are whooshing and it gives a greater feeling of immediacy and immersion). I have also used them to make a quester not pass through a door or a wall until they either drink the potion or type the magic word or hold out the object they scavenged; or have them collide into something to make them teleport or get a prize or whatever. You know, have fun. In a quest. In a game. In a virtual world.

Again, you are always fully in control and can log off to RL if you are unhappy. Also, did you know that you can delete experiences out of your land if you tire of any of them for any reason?

And did you know:

To leave an experience by revoking its permissions, you may either Forget or Block it: Choose Me > Experiences... from the top menu bar. The Experiences window opens. Click the Allowed tab on the Experiences window.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

On 12/10/2023 at 4:13 PM, Gabriele Graves said:

You cannot revoke or block an LL experience and that is what I meant by stealth experience.

If there is such a thing, and I'm not sure there is, it's in their games, and you are not required to play their games to be in Second Life.

[Prokofy Neva]

2 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

Bit late to the party and to close that barn door. A decent enough show of paranoia though - thanks, needed that.

Now then ... Go and learn about Experiences.

Simple enough system to use.

As for the entire RLV vs Experiences quibbling back and forth: One side has remained objective, one has not (and it isn't the side demonizing Experiences).

We missed your comments of this nature back when it was suggested (and with certain Linden enthusiasm) to put RLV in the official as a function to forcibly lift and carry people over regional crossings when they are traveling, something I personally would oppose as it means lifestyle capture of the public commons.

[Gabriele Graves]

Ahh yes, here we are with yet another post belittling the choices of others because they disagree.  That's typical.

[Gabriele Graves]

7 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

If there is such a thing, and I'm not sure there is, it's in their games, and you are not required to play their games to be in Second Life.

There is and even I have about half a dozen of them from visiting various Linden events and I don't even play games.

[Prokofy Neva]

7 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

There is and even I have about half a dozen of them from visiting various Linden events and I don't even play games.

I haven't seen any Linden events that force an Experience on you. For example, the Halloween event had a HUD, not an Experience to get the trick 'r treat bucket. But if there is an unwanted experience that makes you feel mauled, then just don't go to Linden events. I don't think you will miss much.

[Gabriele Graves]

It's so sad that exercising my choices somehow causes this much butthurt in some and provokes such frothing rants.  Ahh well, fiddle-dee-dee!

Edited December 12, 2023 by Gabriele Graves

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

I avoid places if they ask for Experience permissions.  But reading the thread it looks like it derailed now.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

5 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

That one needs to obtain an Experience key directly from LL and that you have to be a premium account member to obtain one, makes it safer than any RLV or other scripted object as far as I'm concerned.  Any yahoo can make, sell or pass around nefarious scripted objects using a throw away alt.  LL has a record of all experience keys passed out.

See, there's a funny thing about that, take a widely accepted and generally trusted Experience like say...

AVSitter.

That experience is on a vast number of parcels, pretty much any home owner with AVSitter scripted chairs, sofas and beds, will enable it.

 

Anyone can make an AVSitter scripted item, that takes advantage of the AVSitter Experience with the pre-compiled AVSitter scripts. And it's p*ss easy to use AVSitter, not to play cool anims when people choose to sit on the item, but, say, to attach an object to an avatar if the item is clicked on. It's a standard feature of the system, meant to attach coffee mugs when in a drinking pose on a cafe chair/table set, etc.

 

But that system, would allow some unscrupulous person to wear a clickable attachment, say a fake "spanker" on their ass, so when any random guy clicks her ass, it uses the AVSitter experience to attach a griefer style deformer to him, and knots his avatar up like a pretzel before teleporting him to the Cornfield.

If one reads up on what Experiences CAN actually do, one knows how that can be abused.

That would be done with the AVSitter experience, but the owner of that Experience Key wouldn't even KNOW it was being done, let alone face any consequences for it.

 

Keys being one per Premium account isn't the "protection" people imagine.

[rasterscan]

I love experiences. I love how knife forks, skate blades, beers, snacks and a bunch of other stuff just appears in the right place and disappears when done without having to do anything, once the experience is accepted. I wonder if anyone has created deliberately offensive experiences though ?

Edited December 12, 2023 by rasterscan

[Qie Niangao]

22 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

But that system, would allow some unscrupulous person to wear a clickable attachment, say a fake "spanker" on their ass, so when any random guy clicks her ass, it uses the AVSitter experience to attach a griefer style deformer to him, and knots his avatar up like a pretzel before teleporting him to the Cornfield.

The AVsitter Experience could not attach a script that teleports anybody anywhere. If you deny the Experience, though, and accept an item it offers to your inventory, that item could teleport you when worn. It's a limitation built into llTeleportAgent and llAttachToAvatarTemp.

It's true that anything you attach could turn out to be a deformer, whether its attached from Inventory, from its own request to attach, put on from the ground, or by an Experience. (Personally, I haven't seen a deformer in the wild for over a decade, but I'm sure they're out there, so YMMV.)

[Sid Nagy]

Why is there a "report abuse"-button in the experience dialog box, if experiences are so safe?
 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Love Zhaoying]

I think people don't trust Experiences after one "bad experience" with them.  That, plus lack of clarity.

On the other hand..

- If you happen to be a Tiny and your Tiny community has a well-publicized, beneficial Experience, then you'd probably trust THAT Experience.

- If you happen to support a specific Merchant and they have a helpful shopping Experience, then you'd probably trust THAT Experience.

- If you like to "tour" Second Life, and you read about a "highly reviewed" Experience, you'd probably not be too shy to try THAT Experience.

- If you have a Friend or Partner in Second Life who created an Experience, you would probably trust THAT Experience.

- If you yourself created an Experience, you would probably defend to others THAT Experience.

etcetera. 

[Paul Hexem]

9 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Ahh yes, here we are with yet another post belittling the choices of others because they disagree.  That's typical.

It seems to me that the only posts being belittled are the exaggerated, over the top posts claiming that Experiences are only made by griefers and trolls.

[Qie Niangao]

1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said:

Why is there a "report abuse"-button in the experience dialog box, if experiences are so safe?

That's one feature that makes them more safe than alternatives. Unlike an Experience, there's no button to simultaneously report every instance of an abusive attachment, and no easy switch the Lab can flip to disable them all. (They can trace object provenance and eventually blacklist every associated object, but it's not trivial to determine which branches of the tree are abusive.)

And Experience developers are well aware of that, so they're apt to behave.

Also, at the risk of being classist, Experience key owners are all Premium, so arguably they may have more at stake than an unknown scripter of some creator's wearable…

… or furniture, for that matter. Again, other than temporary EEP settings and llSitOnLink, regular attachments can do without asking everything Experiences can do—and other than attach, so can anything an avatar sits on.

[Love Zhaoying]

Fair statement or not..?

"Accepting an Experience from an unknown / random person is the equivalent of accepting a random TP request , random request to 'Animate your avatar', and possibly even a random RLV request."

 

[Kerri Macarthur]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

It seems to me that the only posts being belittled are the exaggerated, over the top posts claiming that Experiences are only made by griefers and trolls.

Try to respond to what we actually say rather than what you think we say

[Qie Niangao]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

"Accepting an Experience from an unknown / random person is the equivalent of accepting a random TP request , random request to 'Animate your avatar', and possibly even a random RLV request."

Not really? Maybe it's a question of how literally "equivalent" is meant. I agree there are valid analogies there, but there are an awful lot of big, practical differences, too.

It's true that there's a certain trust factor involved in all these cases. Trying to think of it from the viewpoint of the participant, if the Experience request really came out of the blue like a random TP or request to animate, they're all pretty sus, whereas if you click on a danceball and get a request to animate or collide with a portal and get an Experience request, those seem legit, so I guess that's analogous.

[Qie Niangao]

13 hours ago, Kerri Macarthur said:

I think at this point you are being deliberately obtuse. Seems I touched a nerve. Not my fault this whole idea is invasive and inappropriate. 

11 minutes ago, Kerri Macarthur said:

Try to respond to what we actually say rather than what you think we say

Careful what you wish for.