"Experience profile" TP systems - Anyone else not keen?

[Sid Nagy]

4 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

That's one feature that makes them more safe than alternatives. Unlike an Experience, there's no button to simultaneously report every instance of an abusive attachment, and no easy switch the Lab can flip to disable them all. (They can trace object provenance and eventually blacklist every associated object, but it's not trivial to determine which branches of the tree are abusive.)

And Experience developers are well aware of that, so they're apt to behave.

Also, at the risk of being classist, Experience key owners are all Premium, so arguably they may have more at stake than an unknown scripter of some creator's wearable…

… or furniture, for that matter. Again, other than temporary EEP settings and llSitOnLink, regular attachments can do without asking everything Experiences can do—and other than attach, so can anything an avatar sits on.

But isn't it also an acknowledgement from LL that they can be used abusively and they even expect that some creators will?

So I feel better safe than sorry, and only accept a request when I'm convinced that I have something to gain from an experience, not because a sim owner/builder/creator wants me to use what they created and think that is good for me.

So far I missed out what is going on on a few sims, because I got a request to accept  under my nose right away on arrival. But I can live with that.
I like to be in charge of my own SL as much as possible.

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Qie Niangao said:

Not really? Maybe it's a question of how literally "equivalent" is meant. I agree there are valid analogies there, but there are an awful lot of big, practical differences, too.

Good point. I am not sure this thread has covered the nuances of the permission details of Experiences. I did see one post that I believe showed a list in the dialog a user sees.  This is part of where I got the idea to try and state an equivalence.

2 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

It's true that there's a certain trust factor involved in all these cases. Trying to think of it from the viewpoint of the participant, if the Experience request really came out of the blue like a random TP or request to animate, they're all pretty sus, whereas if you click on a danceball and get a request to animate or collide with a portal and get an Experience request, those seem legit, so I guess that's analogous.

Yes, this also goes to the core of my previous post, about how people would trust Experiences in some cases.

But "Giving Permissions" and "Accepting Experiences" seem to both be about "trust". Unless I missed something obvious (as usual).

 

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

14 minutes ago, Kerri Macarthur said:

Try to respond to what we actually say rather than what you think we say

Careful what you wish for.

Sheesh! It's like "they" want an actual discussion instead of just drama and hyperbole. 

How.Dare."They".!!!1!!

 

[Paul Hexem]

20 minutes ago, Kerri Macarthur said:

Try to respond to what we actually say rather than what you think we say

That's exactly what I did, yes.

If I said what I actually thought of some of these posts, I'd probably hurt some feelings.

[Solar Legion]

If an actual discussion is desired then all the charged language, standoffishness and hyperbole needs to be dropped.

So far I'm seeing it only from the one end.

So if ya'll want an actual discussion, act like it.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

If an actual discussion is desired then all the charged language, standoffishness and hyperbole needs to be dropped.

So far I'm seeing it only from the one end.

So if ya'll want an actual discussion, act like it.

But MOMMMM!!!!

[Sid Nagy]

@Solar Legion Only laugh when people say something that doesn't comply with your views, isn't the best discussion method either.
Just saying.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Paul Hexem]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Sheesh! It's like "they" want an actual discussion instead of just drama and hyperbole. 

How.Dare."They".!!!1!!

 

Which "they"? The ones using terms like griefers, disinformation, asshats, or the "they" that are explaining what Experiences do, how to leave them, and how to contact LL to suggest changes to the system?

[Solar Legion]

4 minutes ago, Sid Nagy said:

@Solar Legion Only laugh when people say something that doesn't comply with your views, isn't the best discussion method either.
Just saying.

That's nice.

I laugh at amusing things. I also laugh when someone says/does/posts/suggests something absolutely ridiculous with no care for what is being presented in said post.

Want a discussion? Act like it. Then it will be treated as such.

Simple.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Solar Legion

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Which "they"? The ones using terms like griefers, disinformation, asshats, or the "they" that are explaining what Experiences do, how to leave them, and how to contact LL to suggest changes to the system?

They! Them! Those ones! The people complaining about the discussion, whichever side they be. Or bees.

Edited December 12, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Qie Niangao]

1 minute ago, Sid Nagy said:

But isn't it also an acknowledgement from LL that they can be used abusively and they even expect that some creators will?

So I feel better safe than sorry, and only accept a request when I'm convinced that I have something to gain from an experience, not because a sim owner/builder/creator wants me to use what they created and think that is good for me.

So far I missed out what is going on on a few sims, because I got a request to accept  under my nose right away on arrival. But I can live with that.
I like to be in charge of my own SL as much as possible.

And yet I'll bet you sit on furniture and wear attachments you didn't script yourself, and it's really much easier for those to cause abuse and get away with it than it is for an Experience. I see that "report abuse" button as more a deterrent than a fire alarm.

I'm sure some Experience has been abused at some point, or if not one surely will be someday—all SL features eventually get abused. And yet we persist in logging in and moving around and interacting with objects any of which may be booby-trapped. We judge that we have adequate control, despite the ways they can cause entropy. To me, Experiences are not meaningfully different but I accept that others assess that differently. That doesn't mean that I'll ever understand why.

[UnilWay SpiritWeaver]

To me these the best thing since sliced bread.

At least on my own land - I use them to zip around and move between my different plots on mainland and belli.

I have a wrapper around the permission thing so it should only ask if you're on my approved list (which is just me and my alts).

 

I absolutely HATE having my movement flow in a virtual world involve any screen clicking. I want to be able to move around naturally at fast speed. So anything I can do to remove clicks is a win.

I've even put them into the floor mats of my belli homes so I can move through the door without clicking the screen (on mainland my doors are collision detect based)/

 

My mouse should be for steering. Like in an FPS or action MMO. But I've yet to get SL to let me do that. Still, the closer to it I can get the better.

list approvedNames = [
	"me",
	"you,"
	"somebody else"
];
...
integer findApprovedName(string thisPerson)
{
    if (llListFindList(approvedNames, [thisPerson]) != -1)
    {
        return TRUE;
    }
    else return FALSE;
}
...
collision_start(integer total_number)
    {
        if (findApprovedName(llKey2Name(llDetectedKey(0)))) {
            llRequestExperiencePermissions(llDetectedKey(0), "");
        }
    }
...
    experience_permissions(key agent)
    {
        float angle = -45 * DEG_TO_RAD;

      //When teleporting to another region, we need a direction vector.
      //vector look_at = <llCos(angle), 0, llSin(angle)>;
        vector look_at = <189,91,80>;
        if (findApprovedName(llKey2Name(agent))) {
            llTeleportAgent(agent, "OutsideTheDoor", ZERO_VECTOR, look_at);
        }
    }

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by UnilWay SpiritWeaver

[Kerri Macarthur]

2 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

And yet I'll bet you sit on furniture and wear attachments you didn't script yourself, and it's really much easier for those to cause abuse and get away with it than it is for an Experience. I see that "report abuse" button as more a deterrent than a fire alarm.

I'm sure some Experience has been abused at some point, or if not one surely will be someday—all SL features eventually get abused. And yet we persist in logging in and moving around and interacting with objects any of which may be booby-trapped. We judge that we have adequate control, despite the ways they can cause entropy. To me, Experiences are not meaningfully different but I accept that others assess that differently. That doesn't mean that I'll ever understand why.

Its not "easier".

Furniture can do things when you sit.

And when you stand, perms are revoked.

Experiences are not like this

Also, furniture doesn't change your environment.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 minutes ago, UnilWay SpiritWeaver said:

To me these the best thing since sliced bread.

That's saying a lot! And I read not too long ago, that sliced bread was the best thing since Betty White!

 

[Kerri Macarthur]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

That's saying a lot! And I read not too long ago, that sliced bread was the best thing since Betty White!

 

Do we even have sliced bread?

[Fionalein]

Just now, Kerri Macarthur said:

Also, furniture doesn't change your environment.

I've seen useful camera permissions stuff in SL theatres, changing environment isn't usual for seats but could make sense in certain cases.

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Kerri Macarthur said:

Experiences are not like this

..but you can revoke an Experience's permission at any time. Perhaps it should be easier to do so (revoke an Experience's permissions), like a button with "Leave Experience" somewhere on the screen at all times similar to the "stand" button when you sit on something?

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Kerri Macarthur said:

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

That's saying a lot! And I read not too long ago, that sliced bread was the best thing since Betty White!

 

Do we even have sliced bread?

Who's 'we'? Do you have a mouse in your pocket?

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/you_got_a_mouse_in_your_pocket

Edited December 12, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Kerri Macarthur]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

..but you can revoke an Experience's permission at any time. Perhaps it should be easier to do so (revoke an Experience's permissions), like a button with "Leave Experience" somewhere on the screen at all times similar to the "stand" button when you sit on something?

 

Personally I think there should be an "only this time" accept button rather than a choice between "no" and "yes forever"

[Gabriele Graves]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

It seems to me that the only posts being belittled are the exaggerated, over the top posts claiming that Experiences are only made by griefers and trolls.

What a surprise! of course you see it that way.  I expected nothing less and how little that actually means.

[Solar Legion]

6 minutes ago, Kerri Macarthur said:

Personally I think there should be an "only this time" accept button rather than a choice between "no" and "yes forever"

Except that there is no "yes forever" option unless you yourself choose to leave that permission in place.

Read the documentation - it can be revoked at any time and it does not require much to do so.

[Kerri Macarthur]

2 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Except that there is no "yes forever" option unless you yourself choose to leave that permission in place.

Read the documentation - it can be revoked at any time and it does not require much to do so.

Ok to start with, I'm not stupid.

When you accept, it IS a yes forever - UNLESS the user does something to revoke it. 

Many will forget / not know / be too lazy / not actually realise what they accepted.

Should these people be exploited?

[Love Zhaoying]

Perhaps it would "help" if we "spelled out" some examples of "worst case scenarios"; what "could" happen with an Experience if it were "abusive".

First of all, an Experience CANNOT "take money from you".  I'm putting it out there as a "fact". (Call BS on me!)

Making up a "worst case scenario", I assume people fear they could be:

- Teleported to places where bad things are done to their avatar

- Animated in ways they would never agree to.  This could be "sexual situations", but could also mean something as simple as a "tiny" or "feral furry" being animated in such a way that their "normal" avatar is distorted by applying "standard" animations (basically "ruining" their avatar and immersion, etc.).

- Humiliated, "abused", "tortured", or "used" in some way by being placed in a "compromising" situation

- Otherwise, I'm having trouble coming up with other general "abuse cases". 

Question: Assuming the Experiences are not "grid wide" as has been stated, then merely "teleporting home" should remove one from the Experience. Shouldn't it?  I'm not saying "this makes it all ok", I'm just asking.  ETA: Of course, going to another region with the same Experience enabled would allow the Experience to run again unless you "revoke" it.

 

Edited December 12, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Paul Hexem]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Question: Assuming the Experiences are not "grid wide" as has been stated, then merely "teleporting home" should remove one from the Experience. Shouldn't it?  I'm not saying "this makes it all ok", I'm just asking.

Not entirely.

The Experience can only affect you on parcels where it's enabled, but if you leave and come back, it can resume affecting you.

"Don't hang out on a parcel owned by someone that does things you don't like" is generally good advice with or without Experiences, though.

[Solar Legion]

Just now, Kerri Macarthur said:

Ok to start with, I'm not stupid.

When you accept, it IS a yes forever - UNLESS the user does something to revoke it. 

Many will forget / not know / be too lazy / not actually realise what they accepted.

Should these people be exploited?

M'kay- never said you were 'stupid' so do us both a favor and don't pull that again, hmm?

No, when you accept it is a "yes until I personally revoke this" - if you forget to revoke it, that is on you. If you do not know, you can be shown that it is revokable and how. If you are to lazy that is on you. If you do not realize what was accepted then why did you accept it in the first place?

Avatar attachments work similarly - until you revoke their permission (for some this is as simple as removing the object) they continue to have said permission.

As far as exploitation goes: You can be exploited in any manner of ways within Second Life, the use of an Experience is not required for such.

There have been topics started in the past on the varied fora concerning the varied exploitable permissions (including the Debit permission) as well as RLV systems - this is nothing new whatsoever and the answer is always the same: Educate users on what is possible.

Not what someone imagines is possible, what is actually possible.