"Experience profile" TP systems - Anyone else not keen?

[Love Zhaoying]

15 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

Not entirely.

The Experience can only affect you on parcels where it's enabled, but if you leave and come back, it can resume affecting you.

Yeah, I covered that in my ETA. 

[Qie Niangao]

39 minutes ago, Kerri Macarthur said:

Its not "easier".

Furniture can do things when you sit.

And when you stand, perms are revoked.

Experiences are not like this

Also, furniture doesn't change your environment.

The "easier" here refers to it being easier for furniture and attachments to get away with causing abuse. I'm not sure what's controversial about that. The discussion was about how all instances of an Experience can be disabled simultaneously from a single abuse report, whereas it's a much bigger deal to remove all instances of an abusive seat or attachment.

I'll certainly grant that an abusive attachment can cause more trouble than furniture can, and indeed it can cause much nastier problems than anything an Experience can do because while attached it travels everywhere the avatar goes. It's been a minute since the last juicy report of an attached chat spy script ending a relationship, but it's only a matter of time 'til the next attachment-caused break-up.

Anyway, as already mentioned (I'm trying to multiplex some RL with this thread, so takes a while to catch up), the analogy to standing from furniture is leaving the land scope of an Experience. If the Experience's permission isn't revoked, it'll come back into effect when you return to that parcel, much as sitting in the same chair will re-establish its permissions—the difference being that the chair never had to ask permissions in the first place.

Now, I have a lot to say about the relationship between Experiences and EEP environments—more than anybody wants to read. Some bullets:

• Experiences can only affect a viewer's "shared environment", not any personal environments the user may choose instead.
• The scope of an Experience is pretty analogous to a parcel's EEP settings: they're both limited to the land where they're defined, so leave that parcel and the shared environment (parcel- and/or Experience-defined) changes to whatever's defined at the next location.
• Experience-defined EEP can be used to fine-tune the parcel EEP in three important ways:
  1. greater spatial granularity than the five fixed layers of parcel EEP, most importantly between inside and outside settings, as visitors move around
  2. by individual, so not every visitor needs to see the same EEP at the same time, and
  3. temporally, so those individual visitors can have EEP experiences that start when they arrive and change over time.

I've used #2 in a "recharging station" where the participant gets a bunch of cables rezzed around them and instantly their lighting changes to a very bright white-flooded scene that nobody else sees. That totally depends on Experience-defined EEP.

At one point I had a houseboat parcel that used #3 to change the weather and the sea to correspond to a storm coming in. Honestly, I disabled it because I personally found it too effective: I had a palpable sense of foreboding every time I visited the parcel and let the EEP script play out. That's an impressive effect for a visit to a haunted seashore, and again dependent on Experience-defined EEP, but it turns out not every visit to my houseboat wants haunting.

[Love Zhaoying]

21 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

The discussion was about how all instances of an Experience can be disabled simultaneously from a single abuse report

Hmm..it would be nice if clicking "report abuse" also gave you an option to immediately "revoke" the Experience.

[Paul Hexem]

4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Hmm..it would be nice if clicking "report abuse" also gave you an option to immediately "revoke" the Experience.

That it doesn't is a massive oversight by Linden Lab.

Which probably shocks no one.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Paul Hexem said:

That it doesn't is a massive oversight by Linden Lab.

Which probably shocks no one.

Dumb, simple people like me, lacking "common sense", have an overabundance of "obvious conclusions"!

Smart people have to work a lot harder to reach similar conclusions, because their brains (and thoughts therein) get in the way.

[Qie Niangao]

17 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Hmm..it would be nice if clicking "report abuse" also gave you an option to immediately "revoke" the Experience.

I mean… assuming "revoke" means either "Forget" or "Block", they're in the same dialog box as "Report Abuse".

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Qie Niangao said:

I mean… assuming "revoke" means either "Forget" or "Block", they're in the same dialog box as "Report Abuse".

Thanks, I had assumed "Report Abuse" was somewhere "higher level" (that you didn't have to dig into the Experience Profile). Nope!

ETA: My point being, that someone who "doesn't know" how to find it won't find it (either "Report Abuse" or "Forget/Block").

Edited December 12, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Rowan Amore]

4 hours ago, Kerri Macarthur said:

Ok to start with, I'm not stupid.

When you accept, it IS a yes forever - UNLESS the user does something to revoke it. 

Many will forget / not know / be too lazy / not actually realise what they accepted.

Should these people be exploited?

I just checked out which experiences I had allowed.  I probably had 20+ on the list.  Not once in however many years they have been active has anything nefarious happened to me or my avatar and I travel to A LOT of less than reputable places.  I've actually never heard of anyone who has had a bad experience with Experiences.  YMMV but they seem to be safe overall.   I do understand people not wanting to allow them for whatever reason but claiming they're collectively bad is just not so.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

16 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I've actually never heard of anyone who has had a bad experience with Experiences

The only bad experience I ever had with Experiences, was some fool trying to combine rlv and experience, using the experience to try and force attach an auto-rlv-relay onto people.

I have a bunch accepted too, mostly furniture, and a couple of teleport systems for specific places I visit.

The teleport ones however are from people I know and trust.

MY biggest concern about experiences is actually self proclaimed "artists" who scream if you don't accept their "artistic vision" and allow them to f**k with your viewer settings.

I remember one content creator in particular, who ranted and frothed at the mouth about how the current system didn't give them ENOUGH control over other people, and how "better people" like them, with "artistic vision" should have more authority to f**k with the viewers of visitors to their parcel.

[Rowan Amore]

5 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

The only bad experience I ever had with Experiences, was some fool trying to combine rlv and experience, using the experience to try and force attach an auto-rlv-relay onto people.

I have a bunch accepted too, mostly furniture, and a couple of teleport systems for specific places I visit.

The teleport ones however are from people I know and trust.

MY biggest concern about experiences is actually self proclaimed "artists" who scream if you don't accept their "artistic vision" and allow them to f**k with your viewer settings.

I remember one content creator in particular, who ranted and frothed at the mouth about how the current system didn't give them ENOUGH control over other people, and how "better people" like them, with "artistic vision" should have more authority to f**k with the viewers of visitors to their parcel.

I'd actually prefer creators of regions over simple stores using experiences.  If I'm going to wander around a specific region because of the visuals, then it's fine to change my EEP or TP me through it.  What I don't like are stores who, for whatever reason, use an experience instead of a simple TP board.  I want the women's shoe section or newest releases.   I swear, the store I got my lashes from had me moving through 3 or 4 portals before I could get the dang things.  That was just ridiculous.

[Zalificent Corvinus]

19 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

over simple stores using experiences

Don't get me started on

"Hi I'm a store owner with delusions of being a leet artist, I know *YOU* just want to come in look at vendor boards you can see clearly, and buy stuff, but *I* want you to appreciate my artistic flair in choosing moody eep settings, and therefore I've abused the tools available to make your shopping experience as miserable as possible!"

 

Having to use an Experience-Abuse teleportal to get to a teleportal hub, 1000 m above the store, and then wait for the other portals to rez in enough for you to decide which one to walk into to teleport back to a point 10 m from where you started.

Couldn't they just put a sodding DOOR HOLE in the sodding wall?

[Fionalein]

10 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Don't get me started on

"Hi I'm a store owner with delusions of being a leet artist, I know *YOU* just want to come in look at vendor boards you can see clearly, and buy stuff, but *I* want you to appreciate my artistic flair in choosing moody eep settings, and therefore I've abused the tools available to make your shopping experience as miserable as possible!"

 

Having to use an Experience-Abuse teleportal to get to a teleportal hub, 1000 m above the store, and then wait for the other portals to rez in enough for you to decide which one to walk into to teleport back to a point 10 m from where you started.

Couldn't they just put a sodding DOOR HOLE in the sodding wall?

Well at least you didn't have to ride through Small World to get to the store 🐱

[Polenth Yue]

On 12/11/2023 at 1:06 PM, Qie Niangao said:

Sometimes I offer alternate ways of reaching a destination, and sometimes I explain what the overall Experience is for—but sometimes not and very intentionally not. Some of the fun of exploring can be uncertainty, encountering successive surprises, and even a little apprehension about what may happen to the explorer just around that mysterious corner. If folks don't want that, they're better off not venturing further.

When I visit an area, I want to see the sights and the story and so on. The permissions list is not a spoiler. It does not entertain me in any way. You can tell me what permissions you're going to use (or not) without it revealing anything about the plot.

Forced animation can deform non-human avatars, which I'd rather not have to sort out. Forced camera control can make me motion sick, which is a dealbreaker and will most likely last the rest of the day once triggered. You aren't going to know all the reasons why people want to know which permissions you're using, so just tell them.

[Kerri Macarthur]

5 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

I do understand people not wanting to allow them for whatever reason but claiming they're collectively bad is just not so.

Yet again putting words in my mouth. 

I did not say they were "collectively bad". I said they had the potential to do bad things without warning.

Big difference.

[Ceka Cianci]

I haven't had any problems with any that I've ever allowed.. Honestly, I never heard any  talk about them being abused yet either..

I probably would have heard something by now if they were a big problem.. I'm sure there is some sort of risk to them, but I doubt anything I couldn't get myself out of ..hehehe

[Rowan Amore]

24 minutes ago, Kerri Macarthur said:

Yet again putting words in my mouth. 

I did not say they were "collectively bad". I said they had the potential to do bad things without warning.

Big difference.

Well, from one of your previous posts, that's the impression I got.  Whether that is what you meant, only you know...

On 12/11/2023 at 3:51 PM, Kerri Macarthur said:

I think this is the core of the argument. Giving up control of so much to a person who you don't know that could use this on you in the future.
I mean, lets look at the actual conditions one by one:

Once permission is granted you will not see this message again for this experience unless it is revoked from the experience profile.

So we can expect to lose control over our actions anytime in the future, unless we manually revoke each and every permission.

Scripts associated with this experience will be able to do the following on regions where the experience is active: 

And not just in the location we accepted these requests. Literally anywhere on the grid that has one of the same experience scripts.

Then we get to the actual level of control they have:

    Act on your control inputs
    Animate your avatar
    Attach to your avatar
    Track your camera
    Control your camera
    Teleport you
    Force your avatar to sit
    Change your environment settings

I mean, come on. Who in their right mind would allow all of this at any time and in any place? Its basically losing control over your whole sl. Its possible you could be on another sim minding your own business and randomly your avatar would do its own thing, deform, start wearing attachments, tp somewhere you didn't choose and be forced to sit on some object!

Is this OK?

HELL NO!

*bolding in above quote is mine

Edited December 13, 2023 by Rowan Amore

[Qie Niangao]

10 minutes ago, Polenth Yue said:

Forced animation can deform non-human avatars, which I'd rather not have to sort out. Forced camera control can make me motion sick, which is a dealbreaker and will most likely last the rest of the day once triggered. You aren't going to know all the reasons why people want to know which permissions you're using, so just tell them.

This is interesting. Now that I have reasonably settled implementations at my Experience-equipped locations, I could list which specific permissions I use at each one and be pretty confident the lists are complete and won't change for an explorer's next visit. Although… because the same Experience is used in maybe a half-dozen different locations, I guess I'd need to list the union of the permissions used anywhere at all those sites, which actually would be the full list.

But I have no experience using a non-human avatar that deforms from regular animations, nor with motion sickness from camera control, so I have an even more preliminary problem: I script chairs that do both these things, and did so for many years before Experiences existed. They don't even ask permissions, and the way some of the seats' cam parameters work there'd be no permissions involved at all, it's just a persistent property that a temporary setup script established. Setting aside Experiences for the moment, how should these be handled, ideally?

[Pandora Nova]

On 12/11/2023 at 3:21 PM, Zalificent Corvinus said:

An experience can attach an object to your avatar, once attached, the scripts/animations in the object can affect your avatar, in a variety of ways, stealthed attachments with tracking code, griefer style deformer weapons, etc.

Only LL could track with stealthed attachments, because only Grid Scope experiences could do that. For any normal experience, objects attached with llAttachToAvatarTemp stop working once you leave the experience region. They're also supposed to automatically detach but they sometimes get stuck, the scripts definitely stop working though. What's more, the script even stops working if you go from one region with the experiences enabled to another region with the experience enabled, but not always, which is a major nuissance for experience HUDs on RP sims.

As for griefing and tracking, all of that can be done with the same efficacy without experiences. And unlike experiences, they can't be easily deleted upon abuse by LL. An example for tracking would be invisible micromesh that follows you (there is micromesh floating around that is invisible even in ctrl-alt-t mode and can't be selected in edit mode), or animations that crash all versions of the official SL viewer and FS when played back on someone else. (Note: If someone knows how to stop that animation from doing that, please let me know, I've had to remove the animation from my products as it only recently started causing crashes.)

People are completely free to distrust any script or experience, but region owners are also free to not cater to those unwilling to accept the experience or even bar them from the region entirely. We won't think any less of you, we just don't want to cater to you. For my personal use case, I use seamless teleporters to fake a kilometers long hallway using some collision math and experience teleports on a single region.

Also, as an important aside, there are two pieces of misinformation in this thread:

• Experiences can ONLY override EEP if you have it set to "Shared Environment". If you have it overridden, the experience tools won't be able to change your EEP settings.
• Experience-attached items can only use RLV commands if the experience is rated M or higher.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Pandora Nova

[PheebyKatz]

I recently "forgot" several Experiences I had enabled, since I figure why bother if I haven't visited someone's sim in over 5 years, and ended up having to reenable a couple of them, because (unbeknownst to me, or forgotten by me) our home sim actually uses them for things.

I had completely forgotten that Loki Eliot's Experience key makes half of our insane Realm of Azathoth function without having to keep henpecking people for permissions.

I haven't been paranoid about Experiences since learning what they do and are for, and feel sort of bad for people who don't get how useful an Experience Key can be for creating interactive adventures and stuff.

Sure, some butthead could probably abuse it and make everyone look up their own backsides instead of doing anything useful or decent, but anyone who actually builds interactive adventures on sims can probably be trusted, or nobody would be allowing their Experiences on their land anymore.

My advice to anyone who's paranoid about Experiences is to look at how many of them are enabled grid-wide by default, and cannot be forgotten or revoked in any way. If you worry that someone can use your camera to spy on you, or anything similar, consider the fact that you already have Experiences enabled permanently that belong to the Lindens.

Still here? Then hey, no worries.

Edited December 16, 2023 by PheebyKatz