Simulated intimacy in SL vs the world ..

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Coffee's point, re. the animation thing, is that the code base doesn't currently support the more up-to-date and versatile kinds of animations that other games have. Anyone creating poses and animations is limited by the kinds of formats and approaches that the platform will actually support. And no single creator, working independently of LL itself, can fix that: the best that they might be able to manage is a crude hack of some sort. The code base itself needs to be updated to accommodate new, different, and better forms of animation.

As to whether fixing the animations should be a priority . . . that's another question. I think a really broad and representative survey of residents would reveal that more would be interested in improvements to the behaviours associated with mesh garments and hair. But I could be wrong!

Ahh okies, this is why I told her earlier to create a support ticket for an entire overhaul of the system. I mean that is the only thing you can do. 

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Coffee's point, re. the animation thing, is that the code base doesn't currently support the more up-to-date and versatile kinds of animations that other games have.

Irony:

- I only recently learned about a "position" called "side".

- SL Animations work just fine for "side".

 

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

Ahh okies, this is why I told her earlier to create a support ticket for an entire overhaul of the system. I mean that is the only thing you can do. 

It's kind of a confusing thread because, there are parts complaining about the quality in Second Life, and parts complaining about how that whole aspect of Second Life is "hidden" (not shouted about from soapboxes, rooftops, advertised on cereal boxes and milk cartons)..

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

It's kind of a confusing thread because, there are parts complaining about the quality in Second Life, and parts complaining about how that whole aspect of Second Life is "hidden" (not shouted about from soapboxes, rooftops, advertised on cereal boxes and milk cartons)..

And there is this sort of subtext about "the sort of people" who currently make up the residential population, or who LL supposedly thinks would be "better people": what I think of as the SL equivalent of "The Great Replacement Conspiracy Theory."

And that subtext also casts some shade, subtly or not, on those who supposedly stand in the way of making SL more "open" to sex, such as "academics" and, well, "prudes."

It's not a part of this discussion with which I am very comfortable.

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And there is this sort of subtext about "the sort of people" who currently make up the residential population, or who LL supposedly thinks would be "better people": what I think of as the SL equivalent of "The Great Replacement Conspiracy Theory."

And that subtext also casts some shade, subtly or not, on those who supposedly stand in the way of making SL more "open" to sex, such as "academics" and, well, "prudes."

It's not a part of this discussion with which I am very comfortable.

I am (mostly) able to let the "sort of people" and "better people" comments fly by, like "water off a duck's back".

Reason being:  These parts of the discussion really reflect personal bias, and are not part of the OP topic.  In my opinion.  So, since I do not take these comments "personally" but see them more as a curiosity, I am "mostly" able to ignore them except for some good-natured teasing. 

After all, it's hard to take the topic "seriously" at all, if we get all "judgmental".  Even if it's to take offense at the apparently "judgmental" statements.  

On the surface, "most of us know" why "most people are here".  It crosses the line for "ridiculous" if we really take seriously the idea that "everyone is here for the same reason", judge those who disagree, and judge those who claim not to be here for that same reason.

So, I guess I forget about that subtext so long as I stop seeing posts about it. 

LOL

ETA: I would never say that "academics are prudes". See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Reports

Edited June 24, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Sammy Huntsman]

22 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And that subtext also casts some shade, subtly or not, on those who supposedly stand in the way of making SL more "open" to sex, such as "academics" and, well, "prudes."

I hated those jabs, as it felt like they were looking down upon us. Going, why are you not part of this? Maybe because I already did it, I find it boring and realize that SL is for so many more things than sex and intimacies. Look we are all equal here, and I mean if you really like sex. That is cool on you, you do you. But please don't look down upon me, as lesser. Just cause I have no inkling of doing any of that now. 

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

27 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And that subtext also casts some shade, subtly or not, on those who supposedly stand in the way of making SL more "open" to sex, such as "academics" and, well, "prudes."

I hated those jabs, as it felt like they were looking down upon us. Going, why are you not part of this? Maybe because I already did it, I find it boring and realize that SL is for so many more things than sex and intimacies. Look we are all equal here, and I mean if you really like sex. That is cool on you, you do you. But please don't look down upon me, as lesser. Just cause I have no inkling of doing any of that now. 

Add to that, the fact the OP clearly says "intimacy" - which I completely distinguish from sex..

..and I have to do a lot of literal "code-switching" (it's a thing!) to follow the topic without either taking things personally, or misunderstanding what is "meant".  (Way too much "wink wink, nudge nudge" BS.)

Edited June 24, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Bagnu]

56 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Possibly.

I'm a little uncomfortable (for personal as well as theoretical reasons) with blanket characterizations of people in SL, and we're coming close to that in this discussion of academics (which I am) and SL educators (which I am not, but I've known many).

Is the idea here to truly democratize SL . . . or to replace one person's supposed idea of "better people" with our own?

And to add to your thoughts, we simply cannot characterize people based on who they are and what they do in in SL. I spent 7 years studying at the same learning institution where you are now. I started SL as an Escort. How do we know the beggars who sometimes harass us aren't billionaires in RL? We simply don't.  

[Bagnu]

43 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And that subtext also casts some shade, subtly or not, on those who supposedly stand in the way of making SL more "open" to sex, such as "academics" and, well, "prudes."

And it's quite amazing how some "prudes" and "academics" can be collared and thrown in a cage for sex.. So again, we can't characterize.

I don't doubt some would stand in the way, but I just don't see it as being a good business model to do so for LL. Caution is what I'm seeing.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Bagnu

[Arielle Popstar]

39 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

And there is this sort of subtext about "the sort of people" who currently make up the residential population, or who LL supposedly thinks would be "better people": what I think of as the SL equivalent of "The Great Replacement Conspiracy Theory."

And that subtext also casts some shade, subtly or not, on those who supposedly stand in the way of making SL more "open" to sex, such as "academics" and, well, "prudes."

It's not a part of this discussion with which I am very comfortable.

In all fairness though especially with educators who might be using a particular Virtual World to hold classes, there is a tendency to prefer to keep the sex aspect visibility to a minimum. Have seen this happen in another grid where quite a few educators went after SL put up their land rates for educational institutions. Since then a particular grid over there has become increasingly strict about clothing coverage and any sort of sexual connotations in the more public areas for when students come through those areas.

[Coffee Pancake]

9 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I mean that is the only thing you can do. 

That is a waste of time and well all know it.

The only JIRA feature request that ever get anywhere are ones that LL have already committed to do. An accepted idea is .. literally that. Accepted with no desire or commitment to ever do anything about it. Just put it on the pile with the rest.

 

And no, that is not "the only thing you can do".

 

This complete lack of apparent interest in the platform they operate is why I got into viewer development.

We have spent years trying to give LL code, features and help them understand actual use cases. As a general rule, they do not use the platform, do not engage with users, do not dress themselves and don't even have an AO (let alone understand why anyone would want more than one stand animation). We have had discussions that would shock you as to just how out of touch some are. Can count the number of staff with more than one outfit on one hand.

The group of people who attend office hours is very small, but they have been instrumental in getting results from LL. Even if the pace is glacial because SL development has been massively underfunded.

 

Overhauling our simplistic animation system was my goto example of something that would directly improve the experience on offer to the adult activities in SL and benefit everything else we do with an animation for free. The list of things that need work is very long, but this item has been haunting us since the very start.

Adult activities are the best place to do this development work as that is where the hardest problems are. This is an actual use case for a huge chunk of the population.

Get the humping / hugging avatars to work right, and every single 'not at all adult' activity will be amazing with no effort required.

But first, that requires LL to acknowledge and take this use of the platform seriously and do so without shame.

 

But no.

Were 22 pages deep because people needed to clutch pearls, nitpick, make sure everyone else knew they weren't into the icky sexors, or invent ideas about LL repositioning SL as a adult haven so they could then attack it.

 

I  enjoy expressing intimacy in SL, everything starting from a cuddle and beyond. It is healthy, positive and not something to be ashamed of.

Some people in this thread know that of me personally, but you wouldn't know it from the posts here 😘

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

13 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Were 22 pages deep because people needed to clutch pearls, nitpick, make sure everyone else knew they weren't into the icky sexors

This is either case of you being disingenuous or deliberately obtuse. And totally selfish. You floated an idea, people responded from varying perspectives, then you insult them, not even low key, for not being totally on board. If that's not navel gazing and entitlement, I dunno what is. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

52 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I hated those jabs, as it felt like they were looking down upon us. Going, why are you not part of this? Maybe because I already did it, I find it boring and realize that SL is for so many more things than sex and intimacies. Look we are all equal here, and I mean if you really like sex. That is cool on you, you do you. But please don't look down upon me, as lesser. Just cause I have no inkling of doing any of that now. 

In fairness, I've seen less than I thought I might here, either of the "ick, sex! Fetishist weirdos!" variety, or of the "You're just repressed prudes" type. Mostly this has been pretty civil.

But . . . subtexts . . .

24 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Were 22 pages deep because people needed to clutch pearls, nitpick, make sure everyone else knew they weren't into the icky sexors, or invent ideas about LL repositioning SL as a adult haven so they could then attack it.

Coffee, c'mon, this is ad hominem.

No one is clutching pearls here. You have made a proposal for a fairly radical shift in how LL markets and treats adult content. People, including myself, have responded for the most part in a measure way, and questioned the impacts that this might have on the platform. No one, that I've noted anyway, has suggested that sex here, or those who engage in it, are "icky." No one has made an argument from morality -- the objections or issues raised have been about the nuts-and-bolts impact on recruitment and retention of residents.

You raised an idea here for debate. Don't smear those who respond with reservations as pearl clutchers or clandestine members of the Moral Majority.

ETA: Ingrid just beat me to it, with a more succinct version of the same point.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Sid Nagy]

Okay, my 2 cents on page 22:

In every country of the world there is a lot sex going on.
Do you ever see one of them openly advertise with it when they try to lure in tourists?
Not a single one of them. Not Amsterdam with its famous red light district, nor Thailand with Pattaya and other places. I guess there is a good reason for that: Sex sells, but keeps people out when you openly advertise it.
Everybody who has heard about SL knows that sex happens in our wonderful world, just like in every place in RL.
There is no need to advertise it. It would only be counter productive IMHO.

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Love Zhaoying]

Lest we forget, even people who say, "Second Life is not a game" we're insulted.  The general approach seems to be: agree or be insulted.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

33 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

In all fairness though especially with educators who might be using a particular Virtual World to hold classes, there is a tendency to prefer to keep the sex aspect visibility to a minimum. Have seen this happen in another grid where quite a few educators went after SL put up their land rates for educational institutions. Since then a particular grid over there has become increasingly strict about clothing coverage and any sort of sexual connotations in the more public areas for when students come through those areas.

There are two issues here, somewhat related.

The first relates to the actual virtual classroom environment. Personally, I tend to think this is overblown: in my RL classrooms, the women students frequently show up wearing low cut, midriff bearing tops, and short, tight, shorts or skirts. (The men tend to dress in tees and jeans . . . same as it ever was.)  We don't have a real dress code -- or not one I've ever seen enforced. And I have not had students making out in my class as a result. So, meh. Whatevs. I suppose actual nudity might distract, but "sexy" clothing is a non-issue.

The second issue is a somewhat more legitimate one: by introducing students into SL, teachers are potentially exposing them to all sorts of behaviours and environments outside of the teacher's control. I haven't seen a lot of "Eeek! What if students discover virtual sex!" responses: students have already discovered virtual sex. Hell, they're making out in the library.

But exposing them to scams, to depictions of extreme violence and especially extreme sexual violence, to racism, sexism, homophobia, griefers, etc. . . there is some concern that the teacher or the institution might be viewed as liable for the impacts of these.

Frankly, I think this concern is also overblown. Anything they can find in SL is already probably crossing their screens using Google search. Some kind of introduction to SL that covers "safety" is surely enough, in my view, to dismiss that issue.

Were I teaching here -- and I don't -- I'd want my students to have access to the variety that SL has to offer, rather than teach them in sterile and hermetically sealed classrooms environments.

[sirhc DeSantis]

8 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Lest we forget, even people who say, "Second Life is not a game" we're insulted.  The general approach seems to be: agree or be insulted.

Yep. But that one played the 'on the spectrum' card so we are not allowed to be - roodword- annoyed. Back on page 9 of this I believe but what do I know. Here anyway

 

[Sid Nagy]

In every house around every school all over the world, sex happens on a regular basis.
Is there even one person concerned about that?
Teens know what sex is, how it looks like and where it happens. They know the websites and search strings needed to find it. A lot of them have sex from time to time or on a daily basis.

Same goes for SL IMHO.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Sid Nagy

[Marigold Devin]

On 6/16/2023 at 4:35 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

The top and trending list on STEAM has two titles in the top five containing graphic sexual content, far more detailed than we can ever hope to manage.

Can we stop being ashamed of the massive adult community ?

Can LL start to put some effort into addressing the systemic problems that have undermined such content in SL since say one? (like the simplistic animation system)

I'm a late joiner too, so please forgive if I accidentally repeat something that has gone before as I don't feel like wading through all the pages. I thought I had nothing to say on this subject, but it turns out I do.

Just this.

As Projekt Passion and Fetish Locator are totally designed for sex, maybe Second Life needs to branch out and have a separate platform just for SLex. I don't mean remove the sexual content we have already in Second Life, just also have a separate platform so those would-be residents who are looking for just sex in one form or another can go directly rather than encounter the rest of us weirdos who like doing other stuff like hunting bots and shooting zombies and riding rubber ducks around virtual waterland sims, etc. 

Everyone I've ever encountered in real life who actually had even heard of Second Life all thought it was just a place to meet other people anonymously for sex! (But they were very few, as hardly anyone I have ever met in real life has even heard of Second Life.)

Not keen on being labelled a prude by those who like to label, really am far from it, but virtual reality sex is just not my thing (and I can hear laughter in my head). I personally don't feel any shame about it either, although not keen on the diaper fetish stuff. To each their own though. 

I'm regretting clicking "submit reply" already, but I'm still gonna! 

 

Edited June 24, 2023 by Marigold Devin

[Kathlen Onyx]

12 minutes ago, Marigold Devin said:

As Projekt Passion and Fetish Locator are totally designed for sex, maybe Second Life needs to branch out and have a separate platform just for SLex. 

I don't think this is what @Coffee Pancake is asking for.  I'd never join a platform that was just about getting in on with anonymous people and that was the only reason why they were there. I can watch P*orn for that.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Sam1 Bellisserian

[Katherine Heartsong]

15 minutes ago, Marigold Devin said:

..  maybe Second Life needs to branch out and have a separate platform just for SLex ...

I can name one popular 3D platform with almost as good avatars as we can make, much bigger land holdings, no lag when 100 people are in one dance club, and far better sexual animations that we have here. Plus at least one more in development that, if based on  the screen shots, is truly sexy. So I don't think that SL couldn't begin to compete in that specific market.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

Just to add some context, in case anyone isn't aware - those two games being referenced are single-player dating-sim visual novels. Essentially just like reading an erotic novel in a game format, but with animations, interactions, and choices you can make as the player that will probably affect which ending you get.

Nothing multiplayer that I can see. Just getting it on with story NPCs.

[Arielle Popstar]

21 minutes ago, Marigold Devin said:

As Projekt Passion and Fetish Locator are totally designed for sex, maybe Second Life needs to branch out and have a separate platform just for SLex. I don't mean remove the sexual content we have already in Second Life, just also have a separate platform so those would-be residents who are looking for just sex in one form or another can go directly rather than encounter the rest of us weirdos who like doing other stuff like hunting bots and shooting zombies and riding rubber ducks around virtual waterland sims, etc. 

Or the opposite like having a separate place where one is protected from it.....like Opensim where there is very little of the highly sexualized content found in S/L as well as the ability to completely block what there is of it. 

Edited June 24, 2023 by Arielle Popstar

[Marigold Devin]

2 minutes ago, Katherine Heartsong said:

I can name one popular 3D platform with almost as good avatars as we can make, much bigger land holdings, no lag when 100 people are in one dance club, and far better sexual animations that we have here. Plus at least one more in development that, if based on  the screen shots, is truly sexy. So I don't think that SL couldn't begin to compete in that specific market.

Good job then that SL is good at virtual doll house and the Linden Homes have been a roaring success these past few years.

[Marigold Devin]

1 minute ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Or the opposite like having a separate place where one is protected from it.....like Opensim where there is very little of the highly sexualized content found in S/L as well as the ability to completely block it what is. 

Both.