Blocking Ineffective

[Ceka Cianci]

56 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Or at least not telling them you're blocking them...

Which seems to be a thing many people usually say before they block someone or ignore someone.. I can't count the amount of times I've seen someone in a group chat or general or anywhere really, that before blocking someone  will say, BLOCKED!

For me it's much more satisfying just cutting things off without a word and letting them waste more of their time thinking things are landing somewhere..

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 hours ago, cunomar said:

Not sure why this news headline comes to mind , any ideas ?

A serving police officer who was raped by David Carrick has said she didn't report it to the Met because her colleagues would have "laughed" and it would have been "the end of my career"

Instead she blocked , avoided , ran away for 20 years so many more could suffer the same .

 

Victim blame much?

[Sukubia Scarmon]

16 minutes ago, cunomar said:

No blame . Just pointing out that she , the victim , followed the only course of action she felt available to her because its a cruel world we live in .

Seems both ridiculous and ironic that here in the forum and in sl that the very same course of action is unanimously pushed as the best way forward .

If you block someone for being a minor nuisance then this whole question never arises . When your blocking to prevent someone teaching you to hate then this whole matter takes on a more profound  meaning .

Nononono, friendo, you blamed her. You pointed out that because she did not report it, others had to suffer the same. That is shifting the responsibility onto the victim, rather than the ones who did it. Thus, victim blaming. 

You don't seem to understand that there's fundamental differences between some quabble in an online-environment - and I do believe that most, if not all, conflicts on here and in games are rather meaningless, in essence -, and trying to protect your existence in RL. They're certainly not the same, not even close.

I do not understand what you'd hope to archive what you're not already able to do with the tools provided. By blocking people, you ARE already giving them the consequences for their actions. And if they don't learn from that, and turn around to bother others, then it's not your responsibility, nor fault. And if they always continue, well, at some point, they're blocked by so many people, that they're entirely powerless to affect anyone, have noone to reach out to anymore, and are effectively alone an will propably move on. And I believe that someone who does not learn anything from that, will not learn anything just because you reply with more drastic measures.

[Silent Mistwalker]

30 minutes ago, cunomar said:

No blame . Just pointing out that she , the victim , followed the only course of action she felt available to her because its a cruel world we live in .

2 hours ago, cunomar said:

Instead she blocked , avoided , ran away for 20 years so many more could suffer the same .

 Your words. The emphasized part in red is victim blaming.

 

 

[Arielle Popstar]

2 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

That's nice. The viable solution is to do exactly as stated by myself and others in this thread. You are ot the system administrator, those are the tools you have, you have had it repeatedly explained to you.

Enough is enough.

It is a forum where we discuss Secondlife including the options available to us for dealing with potential issues. We have had a few people who have shown examples of why what you state isn't enough. If you don't like it and it bothers you that I continue discussing it, you do have the option of blocking me unless you are the moderator you make yourself out to be?

[Prokofy Neva]

One reason blocking of text and/or Voice doesn't work is that griefers come back on alts; or they use rogue viewers that overpower those blocks, and don't even bother to change their mains.

Still, you can use a tried-and-true method: log off, even for 5-10 minutes, to break their attention and cause them to get bored and move on.

The only effective way to get rid of chronic griefers is for the Lindens to ban VPNs, which they refuse to do, and even more importantly, to ban groups as a whole -- and enable group land bans on individual or group owned land.

Groups are hugely important to griefers. They need them to keep their identity, their comms, their stashes of loot such as copybotted stuff or griefer prims. They spawn alts but join the same groups to keep access to all those friendships, comms, stashes. 

Philip once famously banned about 50 avatars from Something Awful, but it really was only a slight deterrent, as the mains that held the cloak remained, as did the groups. Lindens treat groups with great reverence; they shouldn't. They delete groups with obscene names, but they can't see their way clear to deleting obvious copybotting and griefer groups. Those groups have such high populations that you can't successfully put them all in ban lists, even automated or shared ones which I personally refuse to use, it's too blunt an axe.

 

[Rowan Amore]

45 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

It is a forum where we discuss Secondlife including the options available to us for dealing with potential issues.

While some may feel the options available aren't enough, proposing other ways that aren't available is kind of pointless in the forums.

File a new feature request for blocking both parties.  Let us know how that goes.

[Solar Legion]

20 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

While some may feel the options available aren't enough, proposing other ways that aren't available is kind of pointless in the forums.

File a new feature request for blocking both parties.  Let us know how that goes.

Furthermore what has been taking place is not any sort of 'discussion' ... and every time this comes up, the same users pretend to be aiming for 'discussion' and never do.

The same 'suggestions' and 'points of discussion' have been brought up time and time again and each time they have it explained why their idea will not work out, why it is a bad idea ... The entire nine yards.

At this point it is clear that they're not looking for a 'discussion' ... and never were.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

I think the problem with this discussion is that it's looking for a one-size-fits-all code solution for a really complicated human problem.

Abuse, stalking, harassment, griefing, bullying . . . these all take different forms in different contexts, or when wielded by different people. We're all so wedded to the idea now that there should be a simple and easy-to-use software tool to solve it -- but human problems are not, and have never been, so easily resolved.

Block is one tool we have, and it can be useful, but in most cases it's going to be inadequate on its own. Shutting your eyes and plugging your ears to abuse, particularly when it is occurring within a community where things like social standing and reputation are at stake, isn't enough: it does nothing to redress the real damage that might be inflicted while you aren't looking or listening.

So, yes, block is "ineffective" -- on its own.

But we have other tools available to us, and most of them are social and require sometimes difficult interactions with other people. We need to be using those in conjunction with block.

So, use ARs. Talk to the club or sim owner. Address the situation with the community within which this might happen. Document the abuse or harassment to reinforce your case. Obtain assistance and support from friends.

Yeah, it's difficult sometimes. These are the things we need to do in analogous situations in RL. They apply here too because the communities and people in SL are every bit as complicated and human as they are in RL.

There's no switch we can flip to solve human problems in RL. We shouldn't expect to find one in SL either. But we do have tools, including block. We need to learn to use them, and not expect that software engineers and developers are going to solve our problems for us. They can't.

[Ceka Cianci]

I also think that when it comes to the point of having to AR someone.. It's very important to remember to not post with emotions in the AR.. Keep strictly to the details, because the details are all they are going to be concerned with.. Venting or expressing things while giving a report is not going to help the investigation go any quicker..plus you may end up leaving something out..

It's best to take some deep breaths and calm down and put as much details and information as you can to help them help you.

[cunomar]

10 hours ago, Sukubia Scarmon said:

Nononono, friendo, you blamed her. You pointed out that because she did not report it, others had to suffer the same. That is shifting the responsibility onto the victim, rather than the ones who did it. Thus, victim blaming. 

Make it all about me because i really don't give a ....

Fact is i feel she's suffered twice over and more because establishment insists - be meek and move on .

There is no excuse for that in rl and even less excuse for it in virtual .

Is SL a game by which the user interacts with only bots or is it something more ?

If its the latter should it not strive to be a better world for everyone ?

"Blocking ineffective" is a new title for an old and repetitive thread , and every time it ends with "there will be no two way block because the "establishment" doesn't want it .

The claim that "it will be spammed by griefers" does not hold water . Nobody can hide from LL so report date and time of griefing event and the griefer will automatically be slapped with a ban .

[Zalificent Corvinus]

9 minutes ago, cunomar said:

. Nobody can hide from LL so report date and time of griefing event and the griefer will automatically be slapped with a ban .

No, they won't be "automatically" banned, it's done manually, because SOME "special snowflakes" have strange definitions of "griefing".

These can range from "disagreeing with me in a public place" to "crashing multiple regions".

 

I once had a guy demand in local chat that half a dozen bystanders file Abuse Reports against me because "...I im'd her to say hi and she closed the im window...".

Specifically, guy teleported in walked up and stood behind me close enough to bump and im'd with

"HI

Now don't go off the rails"

 

Which I assumed, correctly meant he was about to harass me further with unwanted garbage and knew it was unwanted because he'd read my profile, so

"/me closes the im window"

 

Needless to say the 6 regulars did not AR me for refusing to talk in im with a retarded thug.

 

[Aethelwine]

16 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Thing is as long as they can still see my Avatar they have great potential to harass me and even if I cannot see it, my friends and other people in the area could. That is why I personally wouldn't block an enemy. Not sure why some of you aren't getting the downsides of not having the ability to be invisible to a stalker/griefer.

If you could make yourself invisible to a griefer when you block them, what would there be to stop them blocking you and then grieving you. You would then be being griefed by someone invisible to you that you could neither block nor report.

The "solution" has a far worse unintended consequence.

[Love Zhaoying]

4 hours ago, cunomar said:

Make it all about me because i really don't give a ....

Fact is i feel she's suffered twice over and more because establishment insists - be meek and move on .

There is no excuse for that in rl and even less excuse for it in virtual .

Is SL a game by which the user interacts with only bots or is it something more ?

If its the latter should it not strive to be a better world for everyone ?

"Blocking ineffective" is a new title for an old and repetitive thread , and every time it ends with "there will be no two way block because the "establishment" doesn't want it .

The claim that "it will be spammed by griefers" does not hold water . Nobody can hide from LL so report date and time of griefing event and the griefer will automatically be slapped with a ban .

Yes.

No?

Yes!

Maybe.

[Sukubia Scarmon]

11 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think the problem with this discussion is that it's looking for a one-size-fits-all code solution for a really complicated human problem.

Abuse, stalking, harassment, griefing, bullying . . . these all take different forms in different contexts, or when wielded by different people. We're all so wedded to the idea now that there should be a simple and easy-to-use software tool to solve it -- but human problems are not, and have never been, so easily resolved.

Block is one tool we have, and it can be useful, but in most cases it's going to be inadequate on its own. Shutting your eyes and plugging your ears to abuse, particularly when it is occurring within a community where things like social standing and reputation are at stake, isn't enough: it does nothing to redress the real damage that might be inflicted while you aren't looking or listening.

So, yes, block is "ineffective" -- on its own.

But we have other tools available to us, and most of them are social and require sometimes difficult interactions with other people. We need to be using those in conjunction with block.

So, use ARs. Talk to the club or sim owner. Address the situation with the community within which this might happen. Document the abuse or harassment to reinforce your case. Obtain assistance and support from friends.

Yeah, it's difficult sometimes. These are the things we need to do in analogous situations in RL. They apply here too because the communities and people in SL are every bit as complicated and human as they are in RL.

There's no switch we can flip to solve human problems in RL. We shouldn't expect to find one in SL either. But we do have tools, including block. We need to learn to use them, and not expect that software engineers and developers are going to solve our problems for us. They can't.

I do agree that there is no, and can't be, a one-size firts all solution, at least not one that makes everyone equally happy.
I do think block is the best solution so far - AR, I'd assume, would only work in cases where the offending party would do something that is a banable offence - it'd be utterly useless in just conflicts between people. 
Taking to others is good, tho. Personally I'd not do that, since I pretty much don't care about my social standing, or my reputation. In Germany, we do have a saying for that. "Ist der Ruf erst ruiniert, lebt es sich ganz ungeniert!" - losely "If you're reputation is ruined, you can do what you want because you do not have to worry about that anymore".
What I do care about, is whether or not the people I care about believe it when someone goes around to talk badly about me due to a conflict with me. I'll be disapointed in those who do, and move on from them as well. 

Can't damage me if I don't give them that power over me. 

[Love Zhaoying]

What if, when you blocked someone, you both disappeared for each other? Can't grief someone who's not there.

[Istelathis]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

What if, when you blocked someone, you both disappeared for each other? Can't grief someone who's not there.

*Eyes pop wide open, as a surge of panic spreads through my body*

What have you done Love?  

 

 

[Rowan Amore]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

What if, when you blocked someone, you both disappeared for each other? Can't grief someone who's not there.

Psst...that's what the OP wanted.

[Sukubia Scarmon]

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

What if, when you blocked someone, you both disappeared for each other? Can't grief someone who's not there.

And take the opportunity away from them to see how good I look? Hell naw! That's cruel and unusual punishment.

[Silent Mistwalker]

35 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

What if, when you blocked someone, you both disappeared for each other? Can't grief someone who's not there.

Then the griefers would immediately know they had been blocked when your av suddenly disappears, so they immediately log in an alt and round and round and round we go.

No, thank you.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Psst...that's what the OP wanted.

Is funny because I only need to stop brain CPU a few cycles, and it makes sense. Darn AI! I want to be a real boy, err hoo-mon someday!

[Arielle Popstar]

23 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

While some may feel the options available aren't enough, proposing other ways that aren't available is kind of pointless in the forums.

File a new feature request for blocking both parties.  Let us know how that goes.

The forum is full of posts proposing alternative ways for Secondlife to be doing things rather then the way they are and in spite of their normal lack of response here, at least ideas get more exposure here then they do on feature requesting Jira's.

22 hours ago, Solar Legion said:

Furthermore what has been taking place is not any sort of 'discussion' ... and every time this comes up, the same users pretend to be aiming for 'discussion' and never do.

The same 'suggestions' and 'points of discussion' have been brought up time and time again and each time they have it explained why their idea will not work out, why it is a bad idea ... The entire nine yards.

At this point it is clear that they're not looking for a 'discussion' ... and never were.

Strange coming from one whose typical discussion is a 😄 response. Even now you are not discussing the issue but just attacking the poster and what you have posted so far on the topic, I feel is a weak argument as I have pointed out already.

[Arielle Popstar]

13 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

If you could make yourself invisible to a griefer when you block them, what would there be to stop them blocking you and then grieving you. You would then be being griefed by someone invisible to you that you could neither block nor report.

The "solution" has a far worse unintended consequence.

If I have blocked and made myself invisible to them, how would they still go about griefing me since they can neither see nor contact me? I don't see any consequence, unintended or otherwise.

[Arielle Popstar]

19 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think the problem with this discussion is that it's looking for a one-size-fits-all code solution for a really complicated human problem.

Abuse, stalking, harassment, griefing, bullying . . . these all take different forms in different contexts, or when wielded by different people. We're all so wedded to the idea now that there should be a simple and easy-to-use software tool to solve it -- but human problems are not, and have never been, so easily resolved.

Block is one tool we have, and it can be useful, but in most cases it's going to be inadequate on its own. Shutting your eyes and plugging your ears to abuse, particularly when it is occurring within a community where things like social standing and reputation are at stake, isn't enough: it does nothing to redress the real damage that might be inflicted while you aren't looking or listening.

So, yes, block is "ineffective" -- on its own.

But we have other tools available to us, and most of them are social and require sometimes difficult interactions with other people. We need to be using those in conjunction with block.

So, use ARs. Talk to the club or sim owner. Address the situation with the community within which this might happen. Document the abuse or harassment to reinforce your case. Obtain assistance and support from friends.

Yeah, it's difficult sometimes. These are the things we need to do in analogous situations in RL. They apply here too because the communities and people in SL are every bit as complicated and human as they are in RL.

There's no switch we can flip to solve human problems in RL. We shouldn't expect to find one in SL either. But we do have tools, including block. We need to learn to use them, and not expect that software engineers and developers are going to solve our problems for us. They can't.

I agree with most of what you say here but I don't feel it is all that complicated. If two children can't get along then we isolate them from each other until they are willing to work things out. The best way to accomplish that with a minimal fuss or Linden interaction is to simply block their ability to interact with each other, visually and textually.

[Rowan Amore]

13 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

ideas get more exposure here then they do on feature requesting Jira's.

Not by anyone who matters.  The same topic was discussed a few months ago, as @Madelaine McMastersposted at the beginning, with a similar outcome.  Nothing has changed.