Second Life on Mastodon

[Coffee Pancake]

[Prokofy Neva]

On 12/21/2022 at 9:55 AM, Love Zhaoying said:

I've seen other posts from you that seem to "other" coders. Put them (us) in a group who are apparently nefarious, cultish, etc.

Kind of like..intelligentsia. At least we're in good company!

Of course coders are "other". 

They themselves established this order.

No, I'm not going to "learn to code".

 

[Prokofy Neva]

On 12/20/2022 at 12:22 PM, Arielle Popstar said:

Not so much because then we go back to Coffee's post about the federation:

 

So it's not much of a federation if in fact some people's instances can be isolated off it for any reason or no reason.

[Prokofy Neva]

On 12/19/2022 at 9:15 PM, Paul Hexem said:

I'm not sure that's true.

Setting up all the relevant channels and roles would be a massive undertaking, but I'm on a couple Discord servers with thousands and tens of thousands of members. It's very possible.

Most people don't have the felt need to chat in a group all day long.

And in fact, the SL groups work well *enough* to enable, for example, Bellisseria Citizens to chat nonstop all day long, with only occasional complaints that a statement doesn't show up in the group chat. It works sufficiently well for the purpose of socializing and gaining information about Linden Homes.

Shopping groups generally don't get into extended conversations -- the mods want people to stay on only the topic of that merchant.

There is 50,000 concurrency tops. So you don't need an endless or huge number of Discords; probably accommodating 5,000 to 10,000 people would be sufficient.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

I'm loving Mastodon!

[PandiSapphire]

@pandisapphire@toot.shoes

Edited December 28, 2022 by PandiSapphire

[belindacarson]

 

[Paul Hexem]

On 12/26/2022 at 11:00 AM, Coffee Pancake said:

That seems like it would heavily encourage people to never experience thoughts or opinions outside of very limited bubbles.

[Love Zhaoying]

8 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

That seems like it would heavily encourage people to never experience thoughts or opinions outside of very limited bubbles.

It's part of why I'm glad that I signed up on a "big" generic server.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Love Zhaoying

[Ayashe Ninetails]

8 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

That seems like it would heavily encourage people to never experience thoughts or opinions outside of very limited bubbles.

I don't necessarily see a problem with that. If Mastodon works similarly to something like Twitter following, Discord, Facebook groups, subreddits, etc., chances are I'm going to want to join a community about a certain topic (crafting, food/recipes, certain games, gaming in general, Second Life, design software, selling on Etsy, freelancing, audio production, etc. etc.), so I don't see a particular need to experience much outside of that main bubble.

Of course, if that's not how that works and there ARE no communities for said things, then I dunno what I'd even use it for. But that's generally how I use everything else.

[Coffee Pancake]

3 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

That seems like it would heavily encourage people to never experience thoughts or opinions outside of very limited bubbles.

Hashtags are how things propagate.

You follow people you are interested in, follow hashtags like you would people and tailor the content to your interests.

The goal is community though a personally meaningful social graph, not to put edge lords, racists and terfs onto your time line to "challenge your beliefs" and bait you into arguments. Twitter does this on purpose because it needs the fist fight to keep the numbers up for advertisements. Mastodon does not have advertisements, so a rolling never ending brawl over trans people's rights to exist or "the jews" doesn't serve any purpose.

[Paul Hexem]

16 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Hashtags are how things propagate.

You follow people you are interested in, follow hashtags like you would people and tailor the content to your interests.

The goal is community though a personally meaningful social graph, not to put edge lords, racists and terfs onto your time line to "challenge your beliefs" and bait you into arguments. Twitter does this on purpose because it needs the fist fight to keep the numbers up for advertisements. Mastodon does not have advertisements, so a rolling never ending brawl over trans people's rights to exist or "the jews" doesn't serve any purpose.

I gotta say, it seems like (based on your posts and requests in these forums) you run into that type of content a lot, everywhere- even here in SL. Which strikes me as a little odd; I have social media accounts too, and I virtually never see anything I don't explicitly search out. Not to mention how welcoming a place SL is in general.

While there's no denying that people like these exist and will go out of their way to make life hard for their intended targets, is it possible you're also doing something to invite or otherwise find all this offensive content?

[Coffee Pancake]

On 12/29/2022 at 1:59 PM, Paul Hexem said:

is it possible you're also doing something to invite or otherwise find all this offensive content?

People having poor outcomes because they were "asking for it" is not a thing.

Blaming the victim for negative experiences that you yourself don't experience is a pretty good sign of privilege, especially If you happen to be white, male, straight and cis.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Coffee Pancake

[Scylla Rhiadra]

On 12/29/2022 at 1:59 PM, Paul Hexem said:

While there's no denying that people like these exist and will go out of their way to make life hard for their intended targets, is it possible you're also doing something to invite or otherwise find all this offensive content?

Respectfully, Paul . . . Coffee has a point.

I can't speak with much if any personal experience of the interactions that someone representing as a relatively "realistic" cis white male experiences in SL, but if you are professedly or obviously trans, a furry, or represent as any number of other non-normative identities, you DO get uninvited harassment, even just shopping. I think it's a little easier for gays than maybe it was, but I've had friends who've experienced homophobia here -- and not because they went to an "all-straights" night club. Even just being a cis white woman means that you're going to get unsolicited and generally unwanted IMs.

SL is actually not as bad as social media (such as Twitter). Anyone taking an even mildly political stance on Twitter can suddenly find themselves the target of a pile-on, generally led by week-old bots with followers in the single digits. And as someone who is "political" in her SL in-world profile, I can attest that I will occasionally get mugged because of that too (although only by individuals).

You don't have to look for trouble if a significant proportion of the population has decided that you violate their sense of what is "right" or "normal." It will generally find you.

[Dyna Mole]

This looks like a good time for a reminder to please avoid making posts that are "hostile or disruptive".  Enthusiastic discussion is always welcome. Just try not to say things that are intended to incite an angry response.

[Love Zhaoying]

@Paul Hexem, I liked the patient answers Scylla and Coffee gave. I've been thinking about it a lot, and my take on it is this: if one is a part of a "targeted" group (LGBT, Trans, and I believe Jews were mentioned), then negative attention and posts come naturally.

For example, one's friends may post about their own experience, or news of concern to one's group. Honestly, the whole concept of "looking for trouble" really does sound like "baiting" and "victim blaming".  I hope you learned something.

Thanks,

Love

[Paul Hexem]

10 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

People having poor outcomes because they were "asking for it" is not a thing.

Blaming the victim for negative experiences that you yourself don't experience is a pretty good sign of privilege, especially If you happen to be white, male, straight and cis.

 

9 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Respectfully, Paul . . . Coffee has a point.

I can't speak with much if any personal experience of the interactions that someone representing as a relatively "realistic" cis white male experiences in SL, but if you are professedly or obviously trans, a furry, or represent as any number of other non-normative identities, you DO get uninvited harassment, even just shopping. I think it's a little easier for gays than maybe it was, but I've had friends who've experienced homophobia here -- and not because they went to an "all-straights" night club. Even just being a cis white woman means that you're going to get unsolicited and generally unwanted IMs.

SL is actually not as bad as social media (such as Twitter). Anyone taking an even mildly political stance on Twitter can suddenly find themselves the target of a pile-on, generally led by week-old bots with followers in the single digits. And as someone who is "political" in her SL in-world profile, I can attest that I will occasionally get mugged because of that too (although only by individuals).

You don't have to look for trouble if a significant proportion of the population has decided that you violate their sense of what is "right" or "normal." It will generally find you.

 

8 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

@Paul Hexem, I liked the patient answers Scylla and Coffee gave. I've been thinking about it a lot, and my take on it is this: if one is a part of a "targeted" group (LGBT, Trans, and I believe Jews were mentioned), then negative attention and posts come naturally.

For example, one's friends may post about their own experience, or news of concern to one's group. Honestly, the whole concept of "looking for trouble" really does sound like "baiting" and "victim blaming".  I hope you learned something.

Thanks,

Love

While it's true that there are people who will search you out (I even admitted it in my previous post), are we really confident in saying there's absolutely nothing we do that contributes to the reactions we get? It's totally out of our control?

Personally, I think the phrase "victim blaming" is too easy to hide behind and avoid self-reflection. If I leave my mainland roadside parcel with rez enabled and autoreturn off, then leave for a couple weeks and someone rezzes stuff there... Is it victim blaming to say I should have turned on autoreturn before I left?

I shouldn't have to turn that on, people should know to clean up after themselves, after all.

If everywhere I go on the Internet people treat me like a troll and react negatively, could it be that I'm only putting that face forward everywhere?

[Love Zhaoying]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

 

 

While it's true that there are people who will search you out (I even admitted it in my previous post), are we really confident in saying there's absolutely nothing we do that contributes to the reactions we get? It's totally out of our control?

Personally, I think the phrase "victim blaming" is too easy to hide behind and avoid self-reflection. If I leave my mainland roadside parcel with rez enabled and autoreturn off, then leave for a couple weeks and someone rezzes stuff there... Is it victim blaming to say I should have turned on autoreturn before I left?

I shouldn't have to turn that on, people should know to clean up after themselves, after all.

If everywhere I go on the Internet people treat me like a troll and react negatively, could it be that I'm only putting that face forward everywhere?

Forrest Gump may have said something like, "I may not be a smart man, but I know a logical fallacy or a false equivalence when I see one",

Or to paraphrase Dr. Leonard "Bones" McCoy, "Damn it Jim, I'm a doctor, not a logician."

Or as the immortal Monty Python sang, Heidegger may have been a "boozy beggar", and Immanuel Kant may have been a "real pissant" but, they might have had something to say.

What do I know? I'm just a silly lion.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Love Zhaoying
Missing comma

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

If everywhere I go on the Internet people treat me like a troll and react negatively, could it be that I'm only putting that face forward everywhere?

As Love notes, you've provided a series of false equivalencies, Paul. False, because they refer to actions -- to decisions that you may or may not make.

Someone who is being bullied or harassed in SL because they are trans, or gay, or black, or a furry, or a woman, is not being attacked for what they are doing: they are being targeted because of who they are. Being trans isn't a "thing one does": it's who one is. You can hide it, I suppose, but the point is that they are not being attacked because of their actions, but because someone doesn't think they should exist at all, or that they should be defined in a different, and invariably oppressive, way.

Your example of your troll forum avatar is a particularly poor example, because it is almost literally a "mask": it's something you choose to represent yourself with, presumably, a half joking intent. Remove it, and you don't change who you are in any way: you merely remove the outward expression.

When people are attacked for who they are, they have no such choice. Unless, of course, you are suggesting that black people shouldn't represent as black, that women shouldn't represent as women, that gay people should just "not be gay" in-world, etc? I don't think that is what you are suggesting, but those are the implications of your analogy.

Edited December 31, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Paul Hexem]

14 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

When people are attacked for who they are, they have no such choice. Unless, of course, you are suggesting that black people shouldn't represent as black, that women shouldn't represent as women, that gay people should just "not be gay" in-world, etc? I don't think that is what you are suggesting, but those are the implications of your analogy.

I'm suggesting that if we stand in a public space with a megaphone listing everything about ourselves, we might bear some responsibility if people interact with us, for good or bad.

There's things about me that would upset people if they knew, and cause them to lash out at me. So I leave it out of my profile, and share the info responsibly. Reduces my negative experiences in world a ton.

Like I said, some people and some traits, this advice doesn't apply. My point wasn't about occasional negative experiences, it was about why someone would have nothing but negative experiences.

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Paul Hexem said:

I'm suggesting that if we stand in a public space with a megaphone listing everything about ourselves, we might bear some responsibility if people interact with us, for good or bad.

Oh, are you? That's nice.

[Rolig Loon]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

My point wasn't about occasional negative experiences, it was about why someone would have nothing but negative experiences.

Some people just do. Sometimes you can blame inattentiveness.  Some people hang out in places that are chaotic and potentially distracting. Some people don't have the reflexes (or the eyesight or the hearing) that they had when they were younger.  And some people simply have bad luck.  Negative experiences happen, and they don't happen to everyone at the same rate.  And once they happen to you a few times, you can start to get overly cautious and tense, and that sets you up for another negative experience. 

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Paul Hexem said:

I'm suggesting that if we stand in a public space with a megaphone listing everything about ourselves, we might bear some responsibility if people interact with us, for good or bad.

There's things about me that would upset people if they knew, and cause them to lash out at me. So I leave it out of my profile, and share the info responsibly. Reduces my negative experiences in world a ton.

Like I said, some people and some traits, this advice doesn't apply. My point wasn't about occasional negative experiences, it was about why someone would have nothing but negative experiences.

Number of years back I had occasion to listen to a talk by a Psychologist who focused on relational dynamics and was in regard to why some people keep running into the same sort of perpetrators, specifically in relationships but it also extended to other areas. His biggest takeaway was that to stop it, one had to ask themselves two questions. 1. What is it about me that attracts that kind of person (whether good or bad) and 2. What is is about me that I am attracted to that kind of a person. (good or bad). The answer to those questions will then help someone to stop a repeating cycle.

By taking the focus off the other and putting it on myself, I have a chance of stopping the cycle of victimization in relationship abuse. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

23 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Number of years back I had occasion to listen to a talk by a Psychologist who focused on relational dynamics and was in regard to why some people keep running into the same sort of perpetrators, specifically in relationships but it also extended to other areas. His biggest takeaway was that to stop it, one had to ask themselves two questions. 1. What is it about me that attracts that kind of person (whether good or bad) and 2. What is is about me that I am attracted to that kind of a person. (good or bad). The answer to those questions will then help someone to stop a repeating cycle.

By taking the focus off the other and putting it on myself, I have a chance of stopping the cycle of victimization in relationship abuse. 

Conflating cycles of personal abuse with toxic and oppressive behaviours that target one, not as an individual, but as a class of person, is an even worse form of false equivalence than Paul offered up. Are you suggesting that victims of racism, for instance, are guilty of attracting racists?  How? By not being white?

2 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

I'm suggesting that if we stand in a public space with a megaphone listing everything about ourselves, we might bear some responsibility if people interact with us, for good or bad.

There's things about me that would upset people if they knew, and cause them to lash out at me. So I leave it out of my profile, and share the info responsibly. Reduces my negative experiences in world a ton.

Like I said, some people and some traits, this advice doesn't apply. My point wasn't about occasional negative experiences, it was about why someone would have nothing but negative experiences.

This is so vague, Paul, that I don't even know how to address it.

I think I've said all I need or want to say on this subject. You get it, or you don't.

Time to move on, and back on subject perhaps?

[Robin Kiyori]

@opaledbirbs@cupoftea.social

my system mates are also there, o/