Linden Lab vs. The Residents

[Sammy Huntsman]

4 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

In theory, that's not a bad idea. It's trying to put it into practice that's very difficult.

LL is extremely reluctant to alter the map of the Mainland, and I think that's wise. But it leads to a patchwork of abandoned land. This happened on a smaller scale during the Great Migration, when LL prohibited all Adult content on the Mainland and forcibly relocated it to Zindra. This resulted in about 3% of the Mainland becoming suddenly empty.

Now, LL could have consolidated all the remaining occupied Mainland into a new, smaller area. But imagine the outcry! People who had bought "protected" parcels would suddenly lose their water or road access. Every single Mainland land owner would have to uproot themselves and start over on a new, and possibly less desirable, parcel.

Doing that with the current amount of Abandoned land would result in a lot more than 3% of the Mainland being lost or relocated to the new "Shopping" continent.

 

I mean using abandoned land is a much better option then telling people to hit the road and find a new place to live in my opinion. That abandoned land is costing them money, just sitting there and doing nothing. 

[Finite]

I kind of like the idea of LL taking over Casper. From bad previous experiences with 3rd party websites and SL. I’m not sure what kind of info Casper allows vendors access too but others give “Gm” or whatever access to any Tom, Dick or Harry. I’ve also had a vendor post a screen shot of their top customers by lindens spent over a dispute or whatever going on in their group chat. I happened to be on the list. I thought it was cool to be one of the top buyers but did everyone need to know that? And I wasn’t involved in the conversation.

[Lindal Kidd]

12 hours ago, Finite said:

I’ve also had a vendor post a screen shot of their top customers by lindens spent over a dispute or whatever going on in their group chat.

It doesn't take an automated vendor system like Caspervend to know that. EVERY merchant, in fact every resident, has access to data telling them who's paid them, and how much and when. It merely takes saving one's Transaction History to a spreadsheet and then adding up everyone's purchases and sorting them in a spreadsheet.

[Paul Hexem]

On 9/14/2022 at 4:14 PM, Scylla Rhiadra said:

They have instead provided value for money, and the kind of rental / residential experience people evidently want. Maybe private land barons should pay some attention, and ask themselves how they might be able to replicate or even better this success?

On 9/15/2022 at 12:37 PM, Butch Daddy said:

there is nothing stopping anyone from offering the same or better options for those who are not premium.

Aside from the massively inflated prices a resident landlord has to pay for the region that LL doesn't?

[Silent Mistwalker]

On 9/15/2022 at 2:46 PM, Sammy Huntsman said:

But doing that would enrage people who have homes on Mainland. I mean if I have a home there and LL came through and said we are reclaiming your land. I would be a little irate about it. 

I don't think she meant reclaiming already owned/occupied parcels.

[Silent Mistwalker]

On 9/15/2022 at 2:44 PM, Coffee Pancake said:

I think if LL came up with something just for retailers on mainland that would be really popular, like lindy homes but for stores .. and reclaim mainland to do it. 

Way back when I was still a starry-eyed noob, falling all over myself trying to make friends and things (2004/5), I thought that LL should have specific areas for commerce on the mainland(s). Sort of a "town square" kind of thing where you can go to shop and all the other things we do as if it were RL. We already have the suburbs with Belli. Just mix in commerce areas with "farmland/country homes".

It was always a nice dream. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker

[WereBeast Alpha]

As long as I can keep my rental property without insane prices going up, I'm fine with it. I'm currently renting from @Count Burks who has reasonable land rental prices than with others I've had in the past for renting for SL land. Most of all each renter is different depending on the size of land and price per property. 

I hope it helps the business out in the long run. 

[WereBeast Alpha]

On 9/15/2022 at 4:40 PM, Sammy Huntsman said:

And how is this even bad? Like should all stores be on mainland or something? I don't get you. MP gives more visibility and the creators who have inworld stores are doing pretty well. I mean malls are great and all, but we don't really need 1000s of malls on SL. I like how it is now, the boutique store feel. 

Mainland makes me lag badly I try to avoid it as much as possible. 

[Persephone Emerald]

41 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Way back when I was still a starry-eyed noob, falling all over myself trying to make friends and things (2004/5), I thought that LL should have specific areas for commerce on the mainland(s). Sort of a "town square" kind of thing where you can go to shop and all the other things we do as if it were RL. We already have the suburbs with Belli. Just mix in commerce areas with "farmland/country homes".

It was always a nice dream. 

I don't think it's good to mix residential with commercial properties, unless it's part of a themed or RP sim. The vendors in shops can contribute to script lag, not to mention the shoppers wearing tons of mesh, textures, HUDs, pets or kids, and particle emitters.

I do think it could be good for LL to set up shopping malls for smaller shops, perhaps using a new, more efficient version of Caspervend vendors. Premium folks might want to use 512 m to 1024 m on such shops, rather than putting it into their home or traditional mainland. 

[Kathlen Onyx]

1 hour ago, Persephone Emerald said:

II do think it could be good for LL to set up shopping malls for smaller shops, perhaps using a new, more efficient version of Caspervend vendors. Premium folks might want to use 512 m to 1024 m on such shops, rather than putting it into their home or traditional mainland. 

The problem with that is that they would have to have enough shops available for everyone or now you have a problem of availability.  First come first serve isn't going to cut it.

[Finite]

14 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

It doesn't take an automated vendor system like Caspervend to know that. EVERY merchant, in fact every resident, has access to data telling them who's paid them, and how much and when. It merely takes saving one's Transaction History to a spreadsheet and then adding up everyone's purchases and sorting them in a spreadsheet.

Yes I understand that. And I understand why vendors would want to keep track of that. Casper however does it all for you. It wasn’t a screen shot of a spreadsheet. Regardless the semantics of that data wasn’t really my issue. It was that it was shared in a group chat using an gyazo link or one of those. So it wasn’t just shared in the group but it’s also out in the nether of the interwebs.

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Finite

[Scylla Rhiadra]

2 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Aside from the massively inflated prices a resident landlord has to pay for the region that LL doesn't?

No, clearly a resident couldn't compete directly with Linden Homes, in the sense of offering something similar.

But they could compete by offering themes and options that are not available in Linden Homes. I can use myself as an example: as much as I admire things about Bellisseria (the infrastructure, provisions to encourage community, the rules about ban lines, etc.),  I have zero interest in living in suburbia in SL.

Where I DO live is a really cool historically themed urban area, of exactly the kind that LL will never offer.

Not everyone wants to live in Pleasantville. Private landlords can compete by offering many of the same inducements that Belli offers, but with affordances and themes that LL won't.

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 hour ago, Persephone Emerald said:

I don't think it's good to mix residential with commercial properties, unless it's part of a themed or RP sim. The vendors in shops can contribute to script lag, not to mention the shoppers wearing tons of mesh, textures, HUDs, pets or kids, and particle emitters.

I do think it could be good for LL to set up shopping malls for smaller shops, perhaps using a new, more efficient version of Caspervend vendors. Premium folks might want to use 512 m to 1024 m on such shops, rather than putting it into their home or traditional mainland. 

I didn't say to mix them together. I distinctly indicated not mixing them together. 

You just described a shopping mall. Not what I had in mind at all. 

Slideshow: https://www.10best.com/interests/explore/10-charming-town-squares-across-u-s-visit-this-fall/

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

I didn't say to mix them together. I distinctly indicated not mixing them together. 

You just described a shopping mall. Not what I had in mind at all. 

Slideshow: https://www.10best.com/interests/explore/10-charming-town-squares-across-u-s-visit-this-fall/

I honestly want a downtown like area in Belli that has shops and maybe small loft apartments. Oh and some cool little attractions like seasonal things. Imagine having a downtown area during the winter, with a small outdoor skating area. 

[Silent Mistwalker]

6 minutes ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

I honestly want a downtown like area in Belli that has shops and maybe small loft apartments. Oh and some cool little attractions like seasonal things. Imagine having a downtown area during the winter, with a small outdoor skating area. 

Nothing wrong with having differently themed "small towns" scattered across mainland. 

Everyone* wants SL to resemble RL as much as possible so why not. 🤐

 

*no not really everyone it's just an expression

Edited September 17, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker

[Sammy Huntsman]

6 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Nothing wrong with having differently themed "small towns" scattered across mainland. 

Everyone* wants SL to resemble RL as much as possible so why not. 🤐

 

*no not really everyone it's just an expression

I feel like Belli needs to feel like a town ngl. I think if they plan on adding more to premium plus, then they need to add commercial lots to Belli. Then you can have a downtown area, with all that. Heck they could even put an SL history museum downtown. 

[MoiraKathleen]

I don't think Bellisseria needs any commercial lots at all.  I have no problem with someone wanting to create a shopping area, or a residential area with a town square with shops or a downtown area, either on mainland or private estates, but not LL in the Linden Home areas.  

LL providing a basic home for residents who have paid for premium membership is one thing - but LL potentially providing a free shop space to a creator just for being a premium member is going too far, in my mind. 

If a creator decides to go premium but doesn't need (or want) a LH, they can use their free tier allowance on mainland for their shop and after the initial purchase cost they wouldn't have any monthly tier for their shop unless they expanded into a larger parcel size.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, MoiraKathleen said:

I don't think Bellisseria needs any commercial lots at all. 

It would be impossible to do equitably, it's bad enough that new creators have to fight tooth and nail for "guest" event space.

The big creators would glomp the lot with a dozen satellite stores on a dozen alts (insert screaming about favoritism here), 2 years later when the project is dilute enough that regular people can get in, it will be a sprawling mega mall no one cares to visit.

[Paul Hexem]

2 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

No, clearly a resident couldn't compete directly with Linden Homes, in the sense of offering something similar.

But they could compete by offering themes and options that are not available in Linden Homes. I can use myself as an example: as much as I admire things about Bellisseria (the infrastructure, provisions to encourage community, the rules about ban lines, etc.),  I have zero interest in living in suburbia in SL.

Where I DO live is a really cool historically themed urban area, of exactly the kind that LL will never offer.

Not everyone wants to live in Pleasantville. Private landlords can compete by offering many of the same inducements that Belli offers, but with affordances and themes that LL won't.

Still, when the only way to break even is to rent out virtually every square meter of the land, that doesn't leave much for said themes and affordances.

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

11 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Aside from the massively inflated prices a resident landlord has to pay for the region that LL doesn't?

Every region has costs associated with it.   Linden owned regions still have costs.  Money went in to planning, building, decorating, and scripting.  The Lab paid people for that.  There are maintenance costs to keeping those regions going like governance, bug fixes, region restarts and other things.  There are fees for server storage space to have those regions available that need to be paid regularly. 

They don't just create a new LH region  and then walk away with no other costs associated ever.  A landlord has bills to pay no matter who is doing the job.

 

On topic:

Just because the Lab is offering something that turned out to be really popular doesn't mean they are trying to compete against resident creators and run them out of business.  They are diversifying their product to offer residents more choice.  Choice is good.  Some SL residents are very creative, talented, and keep providing new and better everything for the rest of us.  The Lab needs those people to continue innovating.  They're not trying to squash them into oblivion.

[Lindal Kidd]

18 minutes ago, Cinnamon Mistwood said:

Just because the Lab is offering something that turned out to be really popular doesn't mean they are trying to compete against resident creators and run them out of business.  They are diversifying their product to offer residents more choice.  Choice is good.  Some SL residents are very creative, talented, and keep providing new and better everything for the rest of us.  The Lab needs those people to continue innovating.  They're not trying to squash them into oblivion.

That may not be their intent, but it's the result. Barring an increase in users, there are only so many dollars to be made out of Second Life. LL, like any profit-minded company, wants to maximize their share of that. But when they take too much, it leaves too little for the creative residents, and that kills their incentive to create.

[Cinnamon Mistwood]

2 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

That may not be their intent, but it's the result. Barring an increase in users, there are only so many dollars to be made out of Second Life. LL, like any profit-minded company, wants to maximize their share of that. But when they take too much, it leaves too little for the creative residents, and that kills their incentive to create.

Maybe I am not understanding, but are you saying the lab should stop offering things that residents want and force them to go to other residents to get kind of what they want?  Force people to rent from others,force them to buy mainland from a few land barons, allow to-big-to-fail systems to go down impacting thousands of users in the hope that someone else will jump in and offer an option?  If any resident ever created something ever, then LL can never try something similar?  Or maybe they should only create really badly done things that are basically useless or so dated as to be unusable to force them to give money to others if the want an item?

I like having choice.  I am a consumer and buy clothes, bodies, makeup, heads, houses, furniture and decor from other residents all the time.

I subscribed to a premium membership first because I wanted land and then I wanted a house provided by LL.  I would not pay LL for use of mainland anymore and I have NEVER rented a parcel from a random resident.  Too many horror stories.

If they offered their own line of bodies and clothes, there would be people interested.  Maybe me, but I have a LOT of stuff for the one body I have.

If you feel it is a competition, then up your game and compete.  Or don't and complain that LL is doing too good at offering choices and your items aren't making you money.

[Lindal Kidd]

No, that's not what I'm saying, Cinnamon.

But it IS a competition, and LL has an insuperable advantage, since they make the rules.

That's the reason I titled this thread "LL vs. the Residents"...because it is a competition. I am not saying that there should not be Linden Homes, or an LL mesh body system, or an LL-run L$ exchange or marketplace. I AM saying that it's a balance, and when LL gets too greedy, creators and resident investors (land barons) leave. Which makes SL a poorer place, and ultimately ends up hurting us all, including LL.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

32 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

No, that's not what I'm saying, Cinnamon.

But it IS a competition, and LL has an insuperable advantage, since they make the rules.

That's the reason I titled this thread "LL vs. the Residents"...because it is a competition. I am not saying that there should not be Linden Homes, or an LL mesh body system, or an LL-run L$ exchange or marketplace. I AM saying that it's a balance, and when LL gets too greedy, creators and resident investors (land barons) leave. Which makes SL a poorer place, and ultimately ends up hurting us all, including LL.

Or . . . LL's own innovations --- and Linden Homes are, or were, innovative -- will push resident creators and land barons to produce their own innovations. That's how this is supposed to work, right? That competition forces innovation?

From my perspective, one of the problems with land rentals in SL has tended to be that they are bland, boring, and cookie cutter. Not all of them, of course -- the places I've lived have not been like that, but that's been the result of my not settling.

The vast majority of rentals are things like quarter-region tropical islands, or L$50 skypods. Few landlords have taken any time to nurture community, build interesting infrastructure, or create interesting themes. And those are among the top reasons why Bellisseria has taken off the way it did.

Bellisseria isn't my thing. BUT I have found rentals in communities that do make an effort, and have produced neat little niche communities that are thriving. The apartments (and it's a reasonably high density setup) in the region I currently live were all snapped up within 24 hours of the sim's opening. Caledon still seems to be going fine, no? And there are others.

I don't know enough about the economics of this: I have no idea, for instance, if my home's region generates a profit for the owner. But if the only way to generate a profit is to offer scores or even hundreds of bland, boring, same-old same-old, then maybe it's a good thing that LL is providing something much more worthwhile. There will always be people, probably lots of them, who want bland, and they will continue to be served by the current situation. But for those who want something more -- and I'm one of them, even if Belli isn't my personal cup of tea -- then LL is providing an absolutely vital service that too few land barons seem willing to offer.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Persephone Emerald]

43 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

No, that's not what I'm saying, Cinnamon.

But it IS a competition, and LL has an insuperable advantage, since they make the rules.

That's the reason I titled this thread "LL vs. the Residents"...because it is a competition. I am not saying that there should not be Linden Homes, or an LL mesh body system, or an LL-run L$ exchange or marketplace. I AM saying that it's a balance, and when LL gets too greedy, creators and resident investors (land barons) leave. Which makes SL a poorer place, and ultimately ends up hurting us all, including LL.

It's competition that forces people to up their game and create better, more desirable content. 

Remember there are 2 markets to consider here as well. First there is competition within SL for the money of people who are already using SL. Then there is competition with the other platforms people could use for the money of people who are already using SL and people who haven't yet committed to using SL. When new people come into SL what do they see and experience? The weird mess that is mainland may seem charming to us, but it likely looks horrible to people who are used to The Sims. The lag on mainland is worse than in Bellisseria too - unless you're in a region that's nothing but abandoned land.

I'm not going to cry for creators who can't be competitive in an evolving market. It's sad when they have to close up shop, but it would be far worse if Second Life had to shut down because it failed to be competitive against other platforms.

SL still allows competition for its users' linden dollars. I've rented at charming places that provided a nice little home in a beautiful and rich environment - both roleplay sims and residential. Currently I'm happy with the simplicity of owning a Linden Home. It's suburbia, but it's low-lag, pretty, and hugely better than my RL neighborhood. The only things missing for me are more community areas, a good sandbox, and a northern coastline to fly or boat along.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Persephone Emerald