Ansariel Hiller Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 Maybe - if you want formatted text - host some RTF or PDF document somewhere and link it in the plain text notecard that is. Or link to some fance Wordpress blog or whatever. But requesting others to do something so you can have "fancy" plain text formatting is definitely not the solution to your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindens Monty Linden Posted August 18, 2022 Lindens Share Posted August 18, 2022 Suspected I'd find these: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-230173 https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-229070 https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-229022 https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-4706 Don't like where some of those ended up.... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NiranV Dean Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 7 hours ago, Henri Beauchamp said: I changed that, over 5 years ago, when I implemented skin-able script editor colors (color values have been replaced with Lsl*Color setting names that are themselves mapped to actual color values in each skin colors_base.xml file). Which means you added/modified code. The whole point i was making is NOT doing that because you said "adding more color options would add even more code bloat". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 (edited) Again, either file a JIRA asking Linden Lab to enforce a standardization or go filing requests on the systems each TPV uses for such things to do so. Beginning and end. No response required here. Use the proper channels. Edited August 18, 2022 by Solar Legion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Beauchamp Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Monty Linden said: Suspected I'd find these: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-230173 https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-229070 https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-229022 https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-4706 Don't like where some of those ended up.... Well, making the note card editor into a browser and HTML editor (HTML is a markup language too, which would fulfill all those requests...) is not really a solution... But certainly a good way to bloat the code ! 😝 However, perhaps something could be done to allow storing in the inventory new ”external link” assets, that could then be embedded into note cards (like other assets) and, when clicked, would open the CEF plugin for viewing the external link (HTML page, PDF file, streaming media, etc) the asset is pointing to... The formatted text (or whatever, including demo videos or whatnot) would then be displayed in a full featured browser, and no fancy markup language would have to be invented for note cards. You can of course already use URLs in note cards, but an embedded asset would allow to hide the gory details of the URL behind a simple name for that URL (with, of course, potential security issues, but not worst than what is already possible today via media in SL)... Also, the URL asset could be copied as an inventory item, given away, etc (easier than copy/pasting URLs via text)... Edited August 18, 2022 by Henri Beauchamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted August 19, 2022 Author Share Posted August 19, 2022 12 hours ago, Solar Legion said: Again, either file a JIRA asking Linden Lab to enforce a standardization or go filing requests on the systems each TPV uses for such things to do so. Beginning and end. No response required here. Use the proper channels. I sincerely apologise for addressing TPV producers with my request to them, instead of using the "proper channel" and address LL who need to change nothing. I am so sorry, and I do hope you will forgive me. Also I'm sorry, but you got a response, even though you didn't require one. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panterapolnocy Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 (edited) Phil, the standardization of the default notecard editor font you are requesting is most probably not going to happen. As you've been poked about it above, this would need enforcement from the Lab's side or prodding TPVs' bug/suggestion reporting systems - remember, that not all of us read these forums. There also may be the case of a completely new TPV emerging that would not conform to your wishes. That said, I do have a question. Let's say that for some reason all of the viewers out there have Deja Vu as the default font set for the notecards. You tailor your ASCII art, indentions or formatting and it all looks nice. Then comes an user that changes font in the viewer for this element, be it through preferences or XML files, or maybe for some reason the font is not loading for them. Your notecard is showing completely wrong for them. What would you tell them? "Change to Deja Vu in order to show my notecard properly"? Because this would sound awfully similar to the "in order to view this website you must use Internet Explorer" or "in order to see my object inworld without issues you need to push your LOD to 4.0". In short, in my personal and private opinion which may be wrong, it's not the user who should tune his or her settings for the content, but content should be flexible enough to not error out on the user. Within some limits of course, but that's the general idea. Therefore, I'd suggest using a texture if you want uniformity across viewers. Even if it means a HUD with it applied, in the middle of the screen. Edited August 19, 2022 by panterapolnocy 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, panterapolnocy said: [...] Then comes an user that changes font in the viewer for this element, be it through preferences or XML files, or maybe for some reason the font is not loading for them. Your notecard is showing completely wrong for them. What would you tell them? [...] Not speaking for Phil here, but I'd tell them: "That's your problem." Sure, it also would be nice if notecards I edit look good on other user's screens too, but the immediate problem for me is that notecards I want to view look like garbage if I dare use viewers from more than one tribe. As long as we're stuck with this architecture where viewers view and edit notecards themselves, it would be better if notecards came with embedded font information that every viewer had to use. Ideally, though (in a different world where computing had useful standards), notecard viewing and editing wouldn't be in the viewer at all, but rather would be an external process (like our choice of script editor) which the user can customize to their personal satisfaction—but then we'd also need uniform drag-and-drop of SL full perm asset handles so notecards could contain stuff besides text. [Edit: This post has been pending Moderator review for a couple hours now, and I don't know if that's due to something I said in this post, or somewhere else, or something altogether unrelated. Is this now a common occurrence? I'm a little queasy about how dumb this may look surrounded by hours of smarter posts.] Edited August 19, 2022 by Qie Niangao 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Deakins Posted August 19, 2022 Author Share Posted August 19, 2022 @panterapolnocy I know that it probably won't happen, and I know that the only reason it won't happen is because some TPV producers prefer to change the font, just for the sake of it, and they simply don't care that it spoils notecards for many people who read them. 3 hours ago, panterapolnocy said: What would you tell them? If a person chooses to change the settings, it's his/her own choice, and s/he has no grounds for complaint. 3 hours ago, panterapolnocy said: Therefore, I'd suggest using a texture A texture would work but it would be just too silly to create a whole texture just to write a text notecard. Why would anyone want to change something that is perfectly fine, into something that causes many people to see the text in notecards spoiled? All it needs is for TPVs to not change the default font when they make modifications to the next LL viewer. It's so simple, and so desirable, especially as their changes to the default font improves absolutely nothing. It's only done for the sake of doing it. There is no sensible reason to do it. In all the posts so far, nobody has even hinted at there being a sensible reason for changing the default font. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 You have addressed no one here other than the users who actually use the forum. To address the TPV developers, you use their particular feature tracking/request systems. Not the Linden Lab run forum. To address Linden Lab directly, you use their JIRA system. If you do not have the time nor inclination to go to each individual TPV dev team's systems to make such a request of all of them nor do you wish to have enforcement done from LL's end ... Then there was no point in bringing it up whatsoever. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NiranV Dean Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 3 hours ago, Phil Deakins said: @panterapolnocy I know that it probably won't happen, and I know that the only reason it won't happen is because some TPV producers prefer to change the font, just for the sake of it, and they simply don't care that it spoils notecards for many people who read them. If a person chooses to change the settings, it's his/her own choice, and s/he has no grounds for complaint. A texture would work but it would be just too silly to create a whole texture just to write a text notecard. Why would anyone want to change something that is perfectly fine, into something that causes many people to see the text in notecards spoiled? All it needs is for TPVs to not change the default font when they make modifications to the next LL viewer. It's so simple, and so desirable, especially as their changes to the default font improves absolutely nothing. It's only done for the sake of doing it. There is no sensible reason to do it. In all the posts so far, nobody has even hinted at there being a sensible reason for changing the default font. Why do people change the default font on this forum, or the default background color or the default text color? It makes it hard for me on dark mode to read, sometimes straight up impossible. Leaving the default color simply makes it adapt to whatever skin (dark or light) we chose and everyone can read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 1 hour ago, Solar Legion said: You have addressed no one here other than the users who actually use the forum. Oh I dunno .. this thread did result in FS features. I would call this thread super effective. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 4 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said: Oh I dunno .. this thread did result in FS features. I would call this thread super effective. I would not. I would also not assume that such was anything more than an idea already kicking around. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aishagain Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Solar Legion said: If you do not have the time nor inclination to go to each individual TPV dev team's systems to make such a request of all of them nor do you wish to have enforcement done from LL's end ... Then there was no point in bringing it up whatsoever. Solar, much of the time I either agree with your testy comments or at least see their point. This time I do neither. Many TPV devs are regular visitors and contributors to these Fora and their views are sometimes changed by what is posted here. The likelihood of The Lab enforcing anything in this context has been discussed and described as unlikely or "not going to happen". One or two Lindens also look in on these threads, especially Monty. Whether ot not the debate has been productive remains to be seen but it was most definitely informative. Edited August 19, 2022 by Aishagain 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solar Legion Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 Just now, Aishagain said: Solar, much of the time I either agree with your testy comments or at least see there point. This time I do neither. Many TPV devs are regular visitors and contributors to these Fora and their views are sometimes changed by what is posted here. The likelihood of The Lab enforcing anything in this context has been discussed and described as unlikely or "not going to happen". One or two Lindens also look in on these threads, especially Monty. Whether ot not the debate has been productive remains to be seen but it was most definitely informative. No "debate" was necessary. At all. A feature/"big correction" was desired and instead of actually going through the proper channels a thread was started. On the Linden Lab run Forum. In a section that is not meant for Feature Requests/Bug Reports (unless one goes by an incredibly loose interpretation of the subforum section description). Informative? In what way exactly has this been informative? Showcasing the differences between varied TPVs? Perhaps, yes. Beyond that though, not really. That any Lindens look into here at all is ... not really all that relevant. If no JIRA entries are made concerning such things then there is nothing for them to take action upon (or to leave to languish for that mater). A performance piece/thread and little else. It could be argued that opening such threads can be beneficial if one is seeking someone to file the relevant requests, due to the poster's inability to phrase what they are asking for, properly. such are often couched as a question - "Would X be a useful thing?" or "Is Y supposed to behave this way?" This was neither of those. It was a statement of opinion, being presented as some sort of Fact. Here's the actual Fact: If Linden Lab actually cared about Notecard Formatting defaults, they'd have enforced such long before now. Long. Before. Now. Therefore one should have taken the time to petition the TPV dev teams directly as opposed to paying this lip (finger?) service by opening a thread on the Linden run Forum. I have no issues with discussion over a potential feature. No discussion whatsoever was sought in this case and thus - from myself at the least - none shall be given. Not that there was actually anything to discuss to begin with. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aishagain Posted August 19, 2022 Share Posted August 19, 2022 Ah well, as ever, I can only speak for myself. I AM informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sid Nagy Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 (edited) On 8/18/2022 at 9:22 PM, Solar Legion said: Again, either file a JIRA asking Linden Lab to enforce a standardization or go filing requests on the systems each TPV uses for such things to do so. Beginning and end. No response required here. Use the proper channels. I don't know why you visit the forums, but most people do to discuss things. That's what they are for right? TPV coders can use some common sense without LL having to enforce it. So this place is as good as any to discuss it. Even better than praying to the JIRA wall.😄 Just use the laugh or confused button when you agree (that is my Third Party Forum view). Edited August 20, 2022 by Sid Nagy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee Pancake Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Sid Nagy said: Even better than praying to the JIRA wall. JIRA is a horrible user experience for those not familiar with it and makes the process deliberately obtuse. The only reason to demand end-user feedback goes to a JIRA is to force a selection bias on who gets to submit said feedback. JIRA's generates a tremendous amount of self serving busy work, mainly so people unconnected with the process can point to it and say how effective it is. I would even go as far as to say JIRA doesn't benefit projects in the long run, it breaks things down into a million tiny problems divorced from the wholistic experience the project is trying to deliver, and if no one is in charge of directing the wholistic experience from an end user perspective, you end up wit.. um .. yeah 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animats Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 An option would be to support basic Markdown in notecard display. Indent four spaces for a monospace font. # Heading - big text ## Lesser heading *italic* **bold** * list item (dotted list) Markdown, though, is kind of a developer thing. How many people here know it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quistess Alpha Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 1 hour ago, animats said: An option would be to support basic Markdown in notecard display. Indent four spaces for a monospace font. # Heading - big text ## Lesser heading *italic* **bold** * list item (dotted list) Markdown, though, is kind of a developer thing. How many people here know it? That was #2 in Monty's list of Jiras: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-229070 Anything simple and/or well documented enough could easily be picked up by people who don't already know it. I dunno if "not breaking existing content" is enough of a reason to not auto-detect its use (E.x. !USE_MARKDOWN on the first line causes markdown interpretation.) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Beauchamp Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 Problem with mark-down: you cannot view and edit the note card like you do currently (i.e. you would need a ”View” mode, used by default when opening the note card, and an ”Edit” mode for changing it), and viewers not implementing it would see the mark-down language, and never the final result. No. If you do need formatted contents, then just have the note card text pointing to a formatted document (thus my suggestion for the addition of an URL asset addition, instead). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 22 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said: Problem with mark-down: you cannot view and edit the note card like you do currently (i.e. you would need a ”View” mode, used by default when opening the note card, and an ”Edit” mode for changing it), and viewers not implementing it would see the mark-down language, and never the final result. No. If you do need formatted contents, then just have the note card text pointing to a formatted document (thus my suggestion for the addition of an URL asset addition, instead). I don't understand. Couldn't the "viewing, haven't edited yet" (save button greyed out) show the markup, and the minute you "edit" the notecard, show the markup source? What would be wrong with that approach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extrude Ragu Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 22 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said: i.e. you would need a ”View” mode, used by default when opening the note card, and an ”Edit” mode for changing it Not necessarily, I've seen plenty of markdown editors implemented that use just a single view. Here's one thats built right into Ghost, a website CMS You just type the markdown sequences and it does the rest 26 minutes ago, Henri Beauchamp said: No. If you do need formatted contents, then just have the note card text pointing to a formatted document (thus my The whole reason most creators distribute notecards with their products is they do not have the time, resources or technical skill necessary to set up a website and need a way to provide the user with a readme/manual, creators who already have websites already do this, so I don't see how this actually solves anything except make an existing workflow slightly prettier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansariel Hiller Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 53 minutes ago, Extrude Ragu said: The whole reason most creators distribute notecards with their products is they do not have the time, resources or technical skill necessary to set up a website and need a way to provide the user with a readme/manual, creators who already have websites already do this, so I don't see how this actually solves anything except make an existing workflow slightly prettier Not sure if I want a product of these skill-challenged creators at all then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extrude Ragu Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, Ansariel Hiller said: Not sure if I want a product of these skill-challenged creators at all then... I would have thought you of all people would understand that creating good art and being good with technology are two distinct skill-sets and that having one does not necessarily mean they have the other Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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