Forum Changes -> Web User Group on August 3, 2022

[Coffee Pancake]

 

There is a web user group meeting TODAY at 2pm SLT here -> https://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Denby/92/78/25

Group meeting happened and is on YT 

Please email keira <AT> lindenlab.com to discuss this with LL further.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Coffee Pancake

[June Starlight]

It is going to be way past midnight in my time zone, but I will try to attend. Current situation inspires way too many questions and concerns to ignore.

[Paul Hexem]

Linden Lab: "Let's schedule our meetings where people can complain, right in the middle of the work week."

Also Linden Lab: "Nobody showed up! They must be happy with the state of things, there can be no other explanation!"

[Marigold Devin]

Flak jackets and orbitters at the ready

(for the Linden staff, not the residents I mean)

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

I can make the first part of this, I think.

I do want to emphasize something with which I think most if not all people here will agree -- and I'm sorry if it makes me sound complacent, or brown-nosing or something equally icky.

Dyna and Quartz have gone out of their way to ease this transition, and to make it more transparent than it might well have been. They're enforcing the rules, which is their job, but they are talking to us about them and clarifying their approach publicly. That's utterly unlike any sort of moderation we've ever had before on this forum, and I very much appreciate it.

I think it really important -- well, for me anyway -- that we distinguish between the "policy decisions" that have been made about the forum, and the way in which the mods here have handled and implemented it. Like us, they're dealing with a new and difficult situation, and I think they are managing it exceptionally well.

[Ceka Cianci]

What ever happens happens.. I'll read them and know to stick to them word for word now.

[Luna Bliss]

17 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

What ever happens happens.. I'll read them and know to stick to them word for word now.

Looks like I'm going to have to beg you to DM your new juice and smoothie recipes to me...

[Madelaine McMasters]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I can make the first part of this, I think.

I do want to emphasize something with which I think most if not all people here will agree -- and I'm sorry if it makes me sound complacent, or brown-nosing or something equally icky.

Dyna and Quartz have gone out of their way to ease this transition, and to make it more transparent than it might well have been. They're enforcing the rules, which is their job, but they are talking to us about them and clarifying their approach publicly. That's utterly unlike any sort of moderation we've ever had before on this forum, and I very much appreciate it.

I think it really important -- well, for me anyway -- that we distinguish between the "policy decisions" that have been made about the forum, and the way in which the mods here have handled and implemented it. Like us, they're dealing with a new and difficult situation, and I think they are managing it exceptionally well.

Agreed.

As you know, I have never understood why LL hosts this forum in the first place. It made some sense back in the days when there was more focus on co-opting free resident energy to Answer questions, but they shifted away from that when switching to this new forum software. I can't see LL's dashboard, but I hope the changes they are making benefit SL overall, and I wouldn't be surprised if they do.

As much as I might dislike where I imagine this goes, I think Dyna and Quartz are handling it very well, I appreciate it, I wish them luck and I'm so very glad I'm not them.

[Luna Bliss]

11 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

.....I have never understood why LL hosts this forum in the first place. It made some sense back in the days when there was more focus on co-opting free resident energy to Answer questions, but they shifted away from that when switching to this new forum software. I can't see LL's dashboard, but I hope the changes they are making benefit SL overall, and I wouldn't be surprised if they do.

I've heard you say this before and it puzzles me.

When I consider a new game I peek at the game forum first. If nothing much is going on in the forum I tend to think nothing much is going on in the game and feel less inclined to check it out. It's a bonus for me when I see some real life engagement too, of an intelligent sort, as I then imagine there might be interesting people in the game I want to meet.

[Ceka Cianci]

21 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Looks like I'm going to have to beg you to DM your new juice and smoothie recipes to me...

To stay on topic, I'll be waiting for the future changes to these forums.. If there is a way to make that content Second Life related, then I would be more than happy to share them.

If they want serious and boring forums, I won't be seeing any topics anyways. Hopefully It will all come out in the wash after the meeting to know where things stand.

 

[Reed Linden]

Hi, everyone!

 

There IS a web user group today. I'm hosting it! I think it may be useful to this discussion to talk a little bit about them. 

First, a little about me. I am the Product Manager for our web properties on Second Life, which includes just about everything within the secondlife.com domain (though, with an important caveat which we'll discuss in a moment), as well as many of our backend systems that talk to the web properties, like the billing engine and support tooling. I've been with Linden Lab for 11 years, starting on our Support team and working my way up through engineering. I accepted a Product ownership role 5 years ago. I am a resident and a Linden. Supporting y'all has been my passion since the first day I started answering phone calls and live chats on a busy overnight Friday shift! My focus is bringing the best tools and features to our residents that I possibly can, to make your Second Life experience as fun, fulfilling, and interesting as it can be. If you have questions about how the web properties work, or what new features we have planned for them, or want to talk about ways they could work even better, I'm your guy! And they best way to have that discussion with me is at the web user group meeting today. 

Our Web User Group meetings have been ongoing every first Wednesday of the month for as far back as I can remember. I've personally been involved with them for the past 5 years, and I inherited running them from Alexa and Grumpity, so I know they go back even further. As I described above, I am the Product Manager who owns our web properties from a functionality standpoint. Here's that caveat I mentioned above: what I don't own is the community policies. We have a few rules at our web user group meetings, the most important of which is that we can't discuss Governance related issues. It's not that I don't want to, or don't care, it's that I'm literally not qualified to do so. Anything I say would, while well-intentioned, almost certainly be wrong.

So, while I personally care about your concerns with regards to the recent policy changes here on the forums, and I want to encourage you to voice them, I want to make sure you all have the right expectations. I will not be able to address them. That said, I will reach out to my colleagues and see if someone may be available to stop by and add some clarity where possible, but no promises. 

 

In the meantime, I welcome your attendance at our user group meeting today, and I look forward to sharing with you all of our recent web features and plans for the future!

 

Cheers!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, Reed Linden said:

So, while I personally care about your concerns with regards to the recent policy changes here on the forums, and I want to encourage you to voice them, I want to make sure you all have the right expectations. I will not be able to address them. That said, I will reach out to my colleagues and see if someone may be available to stop by and add some clarity where possible, but no promises.

Thank you, Reed: this information is appreciated.

If you can let us know if someone will be able to stop by, that would also be appreciated!

And failing that -- what are the venues or avenues we do have available to discuss this issue with LL?

[Coffee Pancake]

There is no governance group in world, that was shuttered without replacement last September.

 

[Kathlen Onyx]

40 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I've heard you say this before and it puzzles me.

When I consider a new game I peek at the game forum first. If nothing much is going on in the forum I tend to think nothing much is going on in the game and feel less inclined to check it out. It's a bonus for me when I see some real life engagement too, of an intelligent sort, as I then imagine there might be interesting people in the game I want to meet.

I'm the total opposite. When I go to a game forum, most likely the reason I am going there is to get information about the game, not to play the A-Z letter game or discuss current RL events.  If I see more GD than game information I tend to think that the forums have more interest than the game itself.  I want to see game tips, instructions and help if I am having an issue.  

I'd actually like to see GD go way completely especially now since everything must be SL related it should all fit nicely in it's own forum. 

[Ceka Cianci]

19 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

I'm the total opposite. When I go to a game forum, most likely the reason I am going there is to get information about the game, not to play the A-Z letter game or discuss current RL events.  If I see more GD than game information I tend to think that the forums have more interest than the game itself.  I want to see game tips, instructions and help if I am having an issue.  

I'd actually like to see GD go way completely especially now since everything must be SL related it should all fit nicely in it's own forum. 

Yea, a lot of those games that last 3 to 5 years have those kinds of  forums..

Myself, I really couldn't care less anymore how they end up.. It won't be the first change that's came along with these forums.

We'll end up where we end up, then life will go on.

[Rowan Amore]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I've heard you say this before and it puzzles me.

When I consider a new game I peek at the game forum first. If nothing much is going on in the forum I tend to think nothing much is going on in the game and feel less inclined to check it out. It's a bonus for me when I see some real life engagement too, of an intelligent sort, as I then imagine there might be interesting people in the game I want to meet.

I was a resident for quite some time before I ever posted on the forums or even read them.  I think my first post was a question about log ins.  I only recently, since Covid, started posting frequently and have enjoyed it.   This is actually the first forum I've ever participated in.  

So I guess I understand some of what Maddy was talking about.  I assumed early on, that it was simply a place to find an answer to a question.

[Luna Bliss]

20 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I was a resident for quite some time before I ever posted on the forums or even read them.

I was the same, but for me it was almost 20 years ago when I connected inworld with web aspects. I had a pile of money I could see at the top of my screen from doing design jobs, and I had to ask someone how to get it. I was directed to the web aspects of SL then.
I do wonder if the process of connection between game/platform and web content is the same now as it was in the past, or how it's different for different people.

Too, I think it depends on what someone is looking for -- a simple game like Ceka mentions, or more of a multi-faceted community with activities inside in addition to roleplaying (the discussion groups we find in SL for all sorts of topics, for example, or people meeting in self-actualization groups to meditate or practice their religion, and education-focused regions. I've created all sorts of regions for people who were more connected to RL).

I would think to attract those who are more focused on RL pursuits some mention of RL on the forum could be good to demonstrate SL is more than a game.

Edited August 3, 2022 by Luna Bliss

[Lindal Kidd]

11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I would think to attract those who are more focused on RL pursuits some mention of RL on the forum could be good to demonstrate SL is more than a game.

It's not often that I find myself in agreement with Luna, but on this we agree 100%.

Certainly, a product's user forums should mainly be focused on that product. But I am also attracted to user forums that form a community, and a community is a group of people who discuss anything and everything. Books, music, silly games, jokes, news items, and yes, politics and religion, as touchy as those topics often are.

Over the years I have actually been persuaded to buy certain products primarily because they had just such communities within their user forums.

The General Discussion forum here, and its predecessor, Resident Answers, provided that community for the SL forums. It might not seem to LL that it's good business to provide bandwidth, and moderation, for discussions that have little bearing on SL, but I believe they're wrong about that.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Ok, so as I understand it from Reed -- we CAN talk about "political" issues in SL on the forums, so long as we are talking about how they are manifested and articulated in-world.

Is that the takeaway everyone else there got?

We didn't really get an answer on non-SL related fun threads, like the cat thread, except that existing threads will be permitted to continue.

[Ceka Cianci]

3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Ok, so as I understand it from Reed -- we CAN talk about "political" issues in SL on the forums, so long as we are talking about how they are manifested and articulated in-world.

Is that the takeaway everyone else there got?

We didn't really get an answer on non-SL related fun threads, like the cat thread, except that existing threads will be permitted to continue.

Is this from the meeting? Because I didn't read that in their post unless I missed something.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Ceka Cianci said:

Is this from the meeting? Because I didn't read that in their post unless I missed something.

Yes. Unfortunately, Reed said it mostly in voice, so I don't have a transcription. (Which I suppose I wouldn't be able to post here anyway?)

Here's what I asked:

[14:19] Scylla Rhiadra: Right. So, we can talk about homophobia or sexism IN SL?
[...]
[14:20] Scylla Rhiadra: Can we address these issues as they are manifested in-world?

To which Reed responded "Yes" in chat, and again, I think, in voice.

[Kathlen Onyx]

[Rowan Amore]

30 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Yes. Unfortunately, Reed said it mostly in voice, so I don't have a transcription. (Which I suppose I wouldn't be able to post here anyway?)

Here's what I asked:

[14:19] Scylla Rhiadra: Right. So, we can talk about homophobia or sexism IN SL?
[...]
[14:20] Scylla Rhiadra: Can we address these issues as they are manifested in-world?

To which Reed responded "Yes" in chat, and again, I think, in voice.

Inara should have it up in a day or so for people to see...

https://modemworld.me/tag/web-user-group/

[Scylla Rhiadra]

If only the forums had some sort of tool -- like, I dunno, an "Ignore" function or something -- that would assist us in avoiding posters who talk about things that annoy us.

Think how many foreheads could be spared from self-abuse!

[Scylla Rhiadra]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

Inara should have it up in a day or so for people to see...

https://modemworld.me/tag/web-user-group/

Inara was late and missed that part of the discussion, unfortunately. But maybe she'll get a rundown from Reed or Kiera, which might actually be an even more useful clarification.