Choose your Linden Home concierge service. Issues/Fixes

[Vixen Firehart]

4 hours ago, Abnor Mole said:

If you have irrefutable proof I encourage you to abuse report the persons doing this. Yes, I know it's difficult to prove, but anyone caught renting out their Linden Home(s) as a business to make L$ runs the risk of serious consequences. 

I'm not so sure about the seriousness of the consequences. Less than a year ago I've reported someone who was renting out a Linden Home (an old Tahoe one), who even advertised it at the For Rent Land forums. The "for rent" sign at that house was gone after filing the report, but their post at the forums didn't even get deleted, and a few weeks later the for rent sign was back up, including more advertisings at the forums. So I just gave up reporting it.

[diamond Marchant]

4 hours ago, Mark Aji said:

The only difference is, that SL is making money off of that & so are the residents who are renting out multiple properties making money

Really? You have evidence? I doubt it. As Linden Homes have been around for 3 years, this could have happened over the last 3 years. Anyone seen this happen? Linden Homes are an incredible bargain. Most people just take their chances with Game of Homes until they get something they like. Where would a GoH landlord advertise?

It is often the case that the objects in a Linden Home have an owner different from the one on the parcel. Is that leading you to this unfounded claim?

I am talking about Bellisseria, not old Linden Homes.

Edited July 27, 2022 by diamond Marchant

[Mark Aji]

1 hour ago, diamond Marchant said:

Really? You have evidence? I doubt it. As Linden Homes have been around for 3 years, this could have happened over the last 3 years. Anyone seen this happen? Linden Homes are an incredible bargain. Most people just take their chances with Game of Homes until they get something they like. Where would a GoH landlord advertise?

It is often the case that the objects in a Linden Home have an owner different from the one on the parcel. Is that leading you to this unfounded claim?

I am talking about Bellisseria, not old Linden Homes.

It seems someone above your post reported someone. As I said before, I'm not here to cause trouble or get people in trouble. It's just a harsh reality.  People advertise property for rent frequently.  & I agree, Linden Homes is an incredible bargain. I've loved them since release. I was not attacking individuals who play GoH. I was merely expressing the around-the-clock bots and people who have 10+ accounts for them, sometimes abuse it. I didn't create this post to talk about people purchasing a property. A mole brought that into the conversation out of fear of adding a button to claim an "empty" lot would increase the number of people selling property.   @diamond Marchant

Edited July 27, 2022 by Mark Aji

[Teresa Firelight]

9 hours ago, Mark Aji said:

@Abnor Mole

 it's clear that it's a broken system, and not all, but a good amount of "Game Of Homes" players are abusing the same system that people want to protect.

Oh I STRONGLY disagree. There are probably a few abusers out there... there always are. But the vast majority of GOH players are totally within the rules and not abusing the system at all.  In fact, I find the statement accusing "a good amount" of GOHers of abusing the system as uninformed.

(I personally am not a GOH player. I have multiple accounts, but when I land a place that I Iike, it is very hard for me to give it up. I tend to keep most of my homes for over a year. The last time I rolled for a house was on Jun 27, a month ago, and I still have that home. But I admire the GOH people... at least the ones I know.)

I have a lot of friends who are GOHers. GOH is a way of exploring SL. It is a bit of an expensive way, as most GOHers have more than 1 premium account. Basically they "explore SL" by rolling Linden Homes until they get a location that appeals to them. Then the spend some time furnishing and decorating it because they enjoy decorating homes. After they get it all set up the way the like it, they enjoy it for maybe a week or two. They also show it to some of their friends. Then they let it go and look for a new place to play with.

Using the system and "abusing" it are two separate things.

Here is a parallel (a bit outrageous but I think it gets the point across). It takes LL Server resources a lot of work each time a person teleports from one region to another. They have to reattach all body and clothing parts, recompile all scripts, upload information about the new region to the avatar's client, etc. 

A lot of people "explore" SL by TPing from place to place. They go somewhere, they look around and maybe play with a few things there, then move on to another location. Each time they "move on," they expend a lot more server resources. Are they abusing the system? or are they using the system the way it was intended to be used?

Should we be telling people, "TPing is resource intensive, so dont TP. Find a place you like and stay there. Dont burden the system by exploring"? ... of course not! Or what about people who use the various "sale" lists to go shopping from store to store so they can get some bargins. Each of their TPs to a new store uses LL Server resources. Should we tell them that they cant TP from store to store to shop because TPing SL Resource Intensive? Of course not!!

Likewise, should we be telling people who enjoy finding new homes and decorating them that they are abusing the LP system and should just stick to a single home and not move? OF COURSE NOT!

Edited July 27, 2022 by Teresa Firelight
fixed typo: but -> bit; removed "offensive" because while the statement made offended me, the person making the statement is not offensive, jsut the statement made. And I did not want my post to be misunderstood as attacking the person I was responding to

[Abnor Mole]

7 hours ago, xViXeNx71 said:

I'm not so sure about the seriousness of the consequences. Less than a year ago I've reported someone who was renting out a Linden Home (an old Tahoe one), who even advertised it at the For Rent Land forums. The "for rent" sign at that house was gone after filing the report, but their post at the forums didn't even get deleted, and a few weeks later the for rent sign was back up, including more advertisings at the forums. So I just gave up reporting it.

Likely possible scenario: Sign was returned and resident was politely informed renting out a linden home is not allowed. Resident ignored the warning and put the sign back up. Governance figured the matter was closed because nobody reported it was back up. 

[Mark Aji]

7 hours ago, Teresa Firelight said:

Oh I STRONGLY disagree. There are probably a few abusers out there... there always are. But the vast majority of GOH players are totally within the rules and not abusing the system at all.  In fact, I find the statement accusing "a good amount" of GOHers of abusing the system as uninformed.

(I personally am not a GOH player. I have multiple accounts, but when I land a place that I Iike, it is very hard for me to give it up. I tend to keep most of my homes for over a year. The last time I rolled for a house was on Jun 27, a month ago, and I still have that home. But I admire the GOH people... at least the ones I know.)

I have a lot of friends who are GOHers. GOH is a way of exploring SL. It is a bit of an expensive way, as most GOHers have more than 1 premium account. Basically they "explore SL" by rolling Linden Homes until they get a location that appeals to them. Then the spend some time furnishing and decorating it because they enjoy decorating homes. After they get it all set up the way the like it, they enjoy it for maybe a week or two. They also show it to some of their friends. Then they let it go and look for a new place to play with.

Using the system and "abusing" it are two separate things.

Here is a parallel (a bit outrageous but I think it gets the point across). It takes LL Server resources a lot of work each time a person teleports from one region to another. They have to reattach all body and clothing parts, recompile all scripts, upload information about the new region to the avatar's client, etc. 

A lot of people "explore" SL by TPing from place to place. They go somewhere, they look around and maybe play with a few things there, then move on to another location. Each time they "move on," they expend a lot more server resources. Are they abusing the system? or are they using the system the way it was intended to be used?

Should we be telling people, "TPing is resource intensive, so dont TP. Find a place you like and stay there. Dont burden the system by exploring"? ... of course not! Or what about people who use the various "sale" lists to go shopping from store to store so they can get some bargins. Each of their TPs to a new store uses LL Server resources. Should we tell them that they cant TP from store to store to shop because TPing SL Resource Intensive? Of course not!!

Likewise, should we be telling people who enjoy finding new homes and decorating them that they are abusing the LP system and should just stick to a single home and not move? OF COURSE NOT!

If you are one of the "Not All"   members I was talking about, like myself who partcipates in the GoH's. Then I'm not sure what you are even worried about or attempting to defend. Once the mole brought up selling property, we started to speak about THOSE players & the people who have 24/7 Bots with auto hot key, flooding the system and new releases, selling property. This doesn't sound like you, or the other GoH players. So there is nothing to defend. I'm not your enemy. It was made clear by a previous post of an authority figure that selling property was against the rules. Perhaps you should re read this thread? Adding & dropping a house, isn't against the rules so I totally agree with you & don't understand what you're actually trying to say. I feel we think exactly the same. To be honest though, I didn't come here to talk about selling linden home property but I can't seem to get everyone to talk about what I originally posted. Perhaps all of you should make a thread about it & go nuts. My post was about the Concierge service of premium plus. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Mark Aji

[Fay Starlight]

"24/7 Bots with auto hot key, flooding the system and new releases, selling property."

Say wut? 

 

[Sparkle Bunny]

14 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

Really? You have evidence? I doubt it. As Linden Homes have been around for 3 years, this could have happened over the last 3 years. Anyone seen this happen?

Bellisseria is massive. I certainly haven't inspected every house in it, so I can't see how you can prove that this has never happened, any more than the OP can prove it has. I've mentioned elsewhere how I once saw and reported a rental box in a Victorian, and it seems unlikely that I just happened to stumble upon the only attempt at subletting that has occurred over the course of three years.

(I'm also not sure why you think advertising is a prerequisite; who's going to risk that when they can just put the word out among their friends?)

But yeah, this is offtopic. Suffice it to say, I hope they don't enable PP+ subscribers to claim parcels instantly, because this will only lead to other people pestering residents to abandon their coastal Victorians; not to mention the complaints next time a new theme launches and the rest of us can't get a sniff of it because the PP+ people are all standing on the new parcels passing them around between themselves.

[diamond Marchant]

4 hours ago, Sparkle Bunny said:

I can't see how you can prove that this has never happened

Of course. This is a matter for governance, as Abnor has said.

About the OP, clearly he was attempting a transfer. Seems innocent but still a transfer... not what LL wishes to see.

Quote

A woman who was releasing her Linden Home, Perfect!! I was there and submitted my ticket! We got this! I'm excited-ish. So she pulls the trigger, and the lot is empty! My ticket is submitted! I'm standing there for almost 39 minutes!!

My takeaway is that the "reassignment algorithm", needs further development. My understanding is that the original (non disclosed?) algorithm has been observed to be suboptimal, for example, reassigning a parcel to the prior owner (random applied to few choices?) or allowing abandon/pick transfers (LIFO?). The PP "choose your house" perk seems like it will work well only when you want a home that isn't obviously desirable. The really desirable ones are likely to get taken by Premium members using all their picks or by a few PP members of the many that want the choice homes.

This seems to be a self-inflicted complication with zero upside to LL. It would have been enough to simply say that PP members have access to special PP homes (e.g. 2048 homes or homes on choice lots).

Allowing people to choose specific homes dilutes the "secret sauce" of Bellisseria. Each Linden Home is unique and all are desirable. GoH is part of the sauce. It is enough pick the type of home you want and leave it at that.

[Vixen Firehart]

16 hours ago, Abnor Mole said:

Likely possible scenario: Sign was returned and resident was politely informed renting out a linden home is not allowed. Resident ignored the warning and put the sign back up. Governance figured the matter was closed because nobody reported it was back up. 

I'm sure that's what happened, but Governance has probably been too nice about it, as the advertisement at the Land forums didn't even get taken down, so people were still able to contact the guy. This gave me the impression that the matter was taken quite lightly, so then I'm not gonna bother reporting it again.

It's not my job to prevent people from doing it again, that's Linden Lab's job. I did my part by reporting what was going on, after that it's LL's responsibility.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by xViXeNx71
Added a sentence

[Abnor Mole]

20 hours ago, xViXeNx71 said:

It's not my job to prevent people from doing it again, that's Linden Lab's job. I did my part by reporting what was going on, after that it's LL's responsibility.

In my experience Governance always assumes ignorance before malice, so unless they are certain a person is aware of the rules and is still willfully flaunting them they generally just warn the person. That isn't necessarily taking it lightly. It's giving a resident (who is a paying customer after all, like most of us are) the benefit of the doubt. I think that's preferable to heavy handed ham fisted punishment under an "ignorance of the law is no excuse" policy.  That means if they do find out they are doing it again they cannot play the "Sorry, I didn't know" card anymore, but I don't think there are enough hours in the day to do follow ups on every person they give a warning to and check up on them. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Abnor Mole

[Nika Talaj]

On 7/27/2022 at 7:23 AM, Abnor Mole said:

 Likely possible scenario: Sign was returned and resident was politely informed renting out a linden home is not allowed. Resident ignored the warning and put the sign back up. Governance figured the matter was closed because nobody reported it was back up. 

This is where the AR system is broken.  Why should anyone re-report an abuse?  We have no way of knowing that governance has taken action on a ticket, or whether it's simply been buried in their workload and was never seen.  I've always assumed that tickets for less serious reports, like littering, eventually expire if governance can't get to them.

Look, enforcing a land covenant is new to LL with Belli.  It would make sense to adjust policy to make enforcement easier.  

@Patch Linden, you would only have to make one change.  Make visible to residents a ticket status.  All it has to indicate is that governance has taken action on this ticket.  Doesn't have to say what the action was, or when action was taken.  Personally, I would post this status 2 weeks or so AFTER governance has taken action - this would give a warned resident some time to rectify the issue themselves.  If a ticket is never addressed but simply expires, no status need ever be reported for it.

Then, if the reporter cared to, they could check the ticket status and re-report if the abuse persists.

We would still have no way of distinguishing between governance issuing a warning that's ignored and governance seeing the problem and deciding it's not an abuse.  Probably not wise to give us that much visibility.  In the case @xViXeNx71 cites, hard to believe that happened.

[Sparkle Bunny]

On 7/28/2022 at 7:00 AM, xViXeNx71 said:

It's not my job to prevent people from doing it again

Unfortunately, it would appear that it is. I can't see governance introducing any kind of feedback on AR's, as the current system of sending them into the void handily avoids customers raising extra complaints about the time it is taking to deal with their complaint.

It works both ways: if they can't be bothered to tell you that your AR is not going to be acted upon, there is nothing to stop you making the same report again. And again. And again.

[Persephone Emerald]

On 7/27/2022 at 11:00 PM, xViXeNx71 said:

I'm sure that's what happened, but Governance has probably been too nice about it, as the advertisement at the Land forums didn't even get taken down, so people were still able to contact the guy. This gave me the impression that the matter was taken quite lightly, so then I'm not gonna bother reporting it again.

It's not my job to prevent people from doing it again, that's Linden Lab's job. I did my part by reporting what was going on, after that it's LL's responsibility.

On 7/28/2022 at 11:27 AM, Abnor Mole said:

In my experience Governance always assumes ignorance before malice, so unless they are certain a person is aware of the rules and is still willfully flaunting them they generally just warn the person. That isn't necessarily taking it lightly. It's giving a resident (who is a paying customer after all, like most of us are) the benefit of the doubt. I think that's preferable to heavy handed ham fisted punishment under an "ignorance of the law is no excuse" policy.  That means if they do find out they are doing it again they cannot play the "Sorry, I didn't know" card anymore, but I don't think there are enough hours in the day to do follow ups on every person they give a warning to and check up on them. 

Here's an alternative idea for those who think an issue should have been fixed but hasn't been.  Ask a friend to AR the incident.  Maybe it's something horrible or maybe it's not that bad. If it's horrible, having 2 people report it helps get it attention.  If it's not that bad, your friend might tell you it's not really a big deal, just Mute the item or avatar. Having someone else AR something also helps to keep you from looking like the constantly squeaking wheel. Personally, I would want to avoid ARing the same situation more than once, because I would feel like the Lindens had already decided to ignore my request.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Persephone Emerald

[Vixen Firehart]

The fact that someone is a paying customer, doesn't mean that they don't have to abide by the rules, then what's the point of having a covenant?

But maybe this is a cultural thing. LL is an American company. In the American customer service, the customer is always right, and companies go out of their way to pamper them. That's not always how things work in the rest of the world. I know the difference, 'cause I've been working in customer service myself for 14 years now (in the Netherlands).

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by xViXeNx71

[diamond Marchant]

26 minutes ago, xViXeNx71 said:

In the American customer service, the customer is always right, and companies go out of their way to pamper them. That's not always how things work in the rest of the world.

Hmmm. Letting residents get away with obvious covenant violations is pampering? How do you distinguish pampering from simply not doing governance.

My theory is that no pampering is occurring,  rather, governance is understaffed. As Linden Research is a private company, we do not know their finances, but it feels like they are running a tight ship... retaining those who can support revenue growth and minimizing expenses. Governance is an expense.

By the way, I always AR, rise, and repeat.

Edited July 30, 2022 by diamond Marchant

[Blush Bravin]

I typically won't submit an AR unless the problem exists next to my home. When I do submit an AR, if I don't see any change within two weeks time, I resubmit the AR thinking that it was either addressed and the person has just recreated the problem or that my AR somehow got lost in the system. It's never occurred to me to not resubmit an AR when the problem that was reported has not been solved.

[Abnor Mole]

11 hours ago, xViXeNx71 said:

The fact that someone is a paying customer, doesn't mean that they don't have to abide by the rules, then what's the point of having a covenant?

No one every said that being a paying customer excuses anyone from following the rules or that "the customer is always right" (because they most definitely are not). It's just a little thing called Hanlon's Razor. "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by neglect, ignorance or incompetence."

It is probably one of the most powerful ideas you can keep in your mental toolbox. If you're working in customer service especially, it is something that can help you maintain your sanity and keep from becoming jaded and cynical as well as providing a better customer service experience. 

[LittleMe Jewell]

11 hours ago, xViXeNx71 said:

In the American customer service, the customer is always right, and companies go out of their way to pamper them.

I have had MANY customer service experiences here in the US where that is definitely not the case.  I think you are simply generalizing things based off of a few experiences.

[LittleMe Jewell]

22 minutes ago, Abnor Mole said:

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by neglect, ignorance or incompetence."

If only more people would follow this philosophy, especially here in the forums.

[Vixen Firehart]

23 minutes ago, Abnor Mole said:

No one every said that being a paying customer excuses anyone from following the rules or that "the customer is always right" (because they most definitely are not). It's just a little thing called Hanlon's Razor. "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by neglect, ignorance or incompetence."

It is probably one of the most powerful ideas you can keep in your mental toolbox. If you're working in customer service especially, it is something that can help you maintain your sanity and keep from becoming jaded and cynical as well as providing a better customer service experience. 

That's actually very helpful, thank you Abnor!

[Prokofy Neva]

On 7/25/2022 at 10:59 PM, Mark Aji said:

So, first let me say. I'm a huge believer in Linden Homes. I'm one of the weirdos who feel this will be the future of SL housing. 

I updated to Premium Plus, for literally one reason. 

 

I feel that "Choosing your Linden Home, Concierge Service" is an amazing idea! So I did just that! I worked very hard for two weeks. I contacted some people and was able to find a couple of homes available on "demand". So I contacted the concierge phone support. They have nothing to do with this option, I was directed to the FAQ. So I could send in a support ticket, Ok! Let's do this! I sent in a ticket! I responded with what I expected, they can't guarantee that if I'm standing with a friend, and they drop the lot..I will be the first person to get it. Even after putting in a ticket and letting them know. I'm sorry but with all respect, I don't agree with this!! So! Let's move forward, let's do what THEY intended us to do. Even though I personally already predicted this, which is why I found some friends who don't use their homes. Location is important to me!!

So here we go! Three days, I finally found it. A woman who was releasing her Linden Home, Perfect!! I was there and submitted my ticket! We got this! I'm excited-ish. So she pulls the trigger, and the lot is empty! My ticket is submitted! I'm standing there for almost 39 minutes!! Dun Dun Dun! Boom! Someone grabs it via the website, but we KNEW that was going to happen once we learned that we don't actually have a live concierge service to help us receive the home. Finally, a response to my ticket about 15 minutes later.  "This one has already been claimed, unfortunately. " Now they did offer to hold onto a Victorian for me, but without the eye for location, which is the most important part for residents like me who actually want to live and use the property. 

I'm sorry but I feel this system is FLAWED. Can't we do better for 29 dollars a month? I'm not here to complain, I'm truly not. I'm here to try and help! 

The obvious answer would be to add a LIVE concierge service, but that would take more man/office hours let's face it, not many companies will do such a thing. So how about, a live chat feature? Well, that poses the same problem. Perhaps adding a BUTTON or automated service ON the land itself!!! For an "Empty" lot. I feel that would be simple enough, no? Premium Plus member walks up to an empty lot; said person selects the lot and claims it. This would solve this problem? Don't you think? The houses could be put into the website the same way, causing no disruption there. The houses could be claimed PERSONALLY for the upgrade of Premium Plus, without the need to waste time sending in "Support" tickets that in reality, you'll most likely LOSE the house, you actually want via the website. I know this probably won't be fixed or added & most people probably don't care. I just think that this could be an amazing feature & advertised as such so it actually holds meaning because I'm fully disappointed with the service that in my opinion is misleading and not that effective considering even when knowing the house will be "Empty". That's not good enough, because we don't have a "Live" agent to help. 
 

 

Thank you for reading & your time. 

 

Of course the Lindens could do this (make Linden Homes instantly available to certain accounts), as they would merely restore/re-do code they used with the "First Land" program, whereby only accounts younger than 30 days were physically able to buy new "First Land" of 512 m2 instantly on new sims (a program since discontinued as it was gamed.)

To be sure, Premium Plus has more difficult code in it, but the principles are the same -- the system checks if a resident has PP, then enables them to buy the land for $0 or even make it $1024, why not. Only land that wasn't in the SSP areas marked "protected" would be work with this system.

The "hand-off" idea has long since stopped working. For awhile, you yourself would get only your own abandoned land again as a choice, and it seemed others could consciously get it if you warned them of the timing of their release. But now it's randomized and working faster again.

The Lindens have made it clear, both in practice and in code, that they don't like hand-offs as it isn't "fair". Even if you have a willing hander and a willing receiver, it creates even more closed circles than are already the case. So you just have to keep looking, I know it's hard when a lot of the sims look alike.

I have had 3 requests processed within 24 hours -- they really are motivated to sell PPs and do this. But I chose land most people don't care about or don't want on older sims.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Prokofy Neva

[Mercedes Avon]

On 7/26/2022 at 1:06 PM, diamond Marchant said:

An unrelated question... is anyone joining PP for a month so they can pick a Linden Home, then reverting back to Premium?

Yes, I have. I bought PP for one month, choose a home and was assigned it. The next month I downgraded back to premium. 

On 7/25/2022 at 10:59 PM, Mark Aji said:

So here we go! Three days, I finally found it. A woman who was releasing her Linden Home, Perfect!! I was there and submitted my ticket! We got this! I'm excited-ish. So she pulls the trigger, and the lot is empty! My ticket is submitted! I'm standing there for almost 39 minutes!! Dun Dun Dun! Boom! Someone grabs it via the website, but we KNEW that was going to happen once we learned that we don't actually have a live concierge service to help us receive the home.

I am sorry that you lost out on a home you really wanted. The sad part of your story is if - in those 39 minutes you patiently waited - you had rolled on that land page, you would have undoubtedly have picked up the home. 

I had someone contact me yesterday about a trad I had on water they really liked. They were three weeks into Linden homes and had not been able to find one they wanted to keep. They are not GOH'ers or forum regulars. They saw my house was empty and asked me if they could rent it (I said no of course) or if I would abandon it for them so they could ticket for it. I told them I would abandon it and they could pluck it off the page but do not rely on the support ticket because they can take a day or more to be processed. They picked it up on the first roll. 

[Teresa Firelight]

22 hours ago, Mercedes Avon said:

I had someone contact me yesterday about a trad I had on water they really liked. They were three weeks into Linden homes and had not been able to find one they wanted to keep. They are not GOH'ers or forum regulars. They saw my house was empty and asked me if they could rent it (I said no of course) or if I would abandon it for them so they could ticket for it. I told them I would abandon it and they could pluck it off the page but do not rely on the support ticket because they can take a day or more to be processed. They picked it up on the first roll. 

That we really nice of you to Toss them your home

[Petros Aabye]

Have LL stopped the 'Submit a Ticket for a Linden Home' process for Prem+ users?

There doesn't appear to be any drop-down menu covering that anymore on the ticket page.