At the risk of getting in trouble…

[Love Zhaoying]

   If paramilitary groups are "ok" in general, politics and morals aside, then goodness me - I don't see any issues selling their outfits in Second Life, whether or not the advertisement is "loud and proud" or via "dog whistle".

  If, however, those same paramilitary groups happen to be related to well-known "hate groups" such as Nazis or white supremacists, then it would seem the products should not be available under the rules set forth by LL.

   Did I do it right?

Edited July 9, 2022 by Love Zhaoying

[Love Zhaoying]

11 minutes ago, Vanessa Amethyst said:

Arent call out threads against the rules of these forums? while they are not mentioned by name you did not exactly make any attempt to cover up there logo. LL seriously needs to lock this thread on those grounds alone. 

Interesting, didn't notice a logo.

Couldn't the photo just be deleted? 

[Lindal Kidd]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Couldn't the photo just be deleted? 

But, Love...if we (or LL) did that, then nobody would know what the thread was about and it would wander all over the...oh.

Nevermind.

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Lindal Kidd said:

6 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Couldn't the photo just be deleted? 

But, Love...if we (or LL) did that, then nobody would know what the thread was about and it would wander all over the...oh.

Nevermind.

I checked back and didn't see anything approximating a logo. So, not sure what that was about.

[Modulated]

I contacted the creator and gave them a link to this thread. I would like to hear what they have to say....

[Coffee Pancake]

I can't wait .. the silence / denial / feigning ignorance will be deafening. 

 

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

There has been an unfortunate, if perhaps predictable shift in this thread away from discussing the matter at hand, nicely encapsulated by Quartz's description: "the propriety, or otherwise, of selling, in SL, outfits associated with US paramilitary groups."

It has instead devolved into a great deal of "what-aboutism" (eeks! Antifa!), generalized and irrelevant attacks on "wokeism," and personal attacks upon me and others.

Speaking personally, I don't much appreciate being referred to as "hysterical," a term that has traditionally and etymological been directed at women; I don't believe that my posts here have been in any sense "hysterical," nor do I think that I have attacked anyone of opposing views personally.

I very much appreciate the fact that Quartz and the mods have allowed this conversation to remain: it's an important one. But I have no intention of descending into the muck that's been hurled around here, nor do I want to engage in a generalized defense of "woke" culture, how "nasty" the Left is, or other irrelevancies intended to deflect the discussion away from the issue of the representation of violent paramilitary groups in SL.

So, unless someone has something pertinent to say about that issue, I'll just thank Pixie for raising this question, and quietly bow out.

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

7 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

I can't wait .. the silence / denial / feigning ignorance will be deafening. 

 

Whenever I'm super super duper mad at someone sometimes my middle finger needs to extend and stretch. That's prolly  kinda like what happened here:

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/09/18/ok-sign-white-power-symbol-or-just-right-wing-troll

[Sparkle Bunny]

15 minutes ago, Modulated said:

I would like to hear what they have to say....

I wouldn't, tbh. Muted enough fascists on here already.

[Love Zhaoying]

13 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It has instead devolved into a great deal of "what-aboutism"

I agree. Rather than address the actual question (as I attempted to do in the post copied below), it seems that those who do not like the question are taking a..familiar approach.

59 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

   If paramilitary groups are "ok" in general, politics and morals aside, then goodness me - I don't see any issues selling their outfits in Second Life, whether or not the advertisement is "loud and proud" or via "dog whistle".

  If, however, those same paramilitary groups happen to be related to well-known "hate groups" such as Nazis or white supremacists, then it would seem the products should not be available under the rules set forth by LL.

   Did I do it right?

 

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

Whenever I'm super super duper mad at someone sometimes my middle finger needs to extend and stretch. That's prolly  kinda like what happened here:

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/09/18/ok-sign-white-power-symbol-or-just-right-wing-troll

Maybe this is the old "Joke's on you" approach because the hand gestures (except the rightmost one) are the ASL for "sphincter"?

But is this within the established "propriety" for items to be sold in Second Life?

Sphincters will be sphincters..

[Kathlen Onyx]

11 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I actually don't necessarily blame FLF for this, although I'll be sending a note card along to suggest they be a bit more watchful next time.

As for someone I might meet wearing tactical at, say, a club? Almost certainly not someone I'd want to know anyway. 

You don't blame one of the major shopping event organizers for including this item in their FLF sales YET you expect every Tom, Dick and Harry to know exactly what they are buying and what they represent should they wear this? 

 

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I checked back and didn't see anything approximating a logo. So, not sure what that was about.

No need...It's not hard to pull up Seraphim and figure out what store it is. Took me all of 30 seconds.

[Arielle Popstar]

6 hours ago, Pixie Kobichenko said:

Please provide source material verified by the FBI that backs your claim. 
 

Wray (FBI Director) contradicts Biden on antifa, saying it’s not just an idea — and it’s a real threat

“So, we take anarchist violent extremism, much of which associates with the antifa movement, very seriously. ... It is something that we investigate very aggressively, and in fact, the number of investigations in that space is something that’s dramatically increased on my watch over the last few years. And I think last year, we had more arrests in the anarchic violent extremism space than in the prior three years combined,” Link

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

3 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

you expect every Tom, Dick and Harry to know exactly what they are buying and what they represent should they wear this?

When did I say this?

If I ran across someone wearing this in an RP sim, I would pass over it in silence, because it's probably being used appropriately for RP (maybe a zombie apocalypse thing? Whatever.)

If someone is wearing it in the context of a club or some other place where it is out of place, then, yes, I'm going to assume that they are big on guns and military stuff and like to show that off, and hence not someone I'd likely have much interest in knowing.

I would not assume that everyone wearing it knows what they are wearing. In fact, on the first page of this thread, I think, I explicitly said that I didn't think 90% of those buying it would have any idea what it represents.

[Aethelwine]

I wouldn't have thought anything of it without this thread pointing it out. My initial reaction would be that would be nice outfit for a camping trip. fun loving John Goodman type father figure maybe.

I imagine there will be people buying the outfit in ignorance and wondering why they are getting a mixture of hostile reactions and people talking to them about bizarre conspiracy theories. 'Had I bought it in ignorance and then found out the meaning I would feel pretty badly cheated that the shop hadn't made it clear I was going to be making a statement wearing it.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Aethelwine

[Kathlen Onyx]

5 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

I wouldn't have thought anything of it without this thread pointing it out.

I imagine there will be people buying the outfit in ignorance and wondering why they are getting a mixture of hostile reactions and people talking to them about bizarre conspiracy theories. 'Had I bought it in ignorance and then found out the meaning I would feel pretty badly that the shop hadn't made it clear I was going to be making a statement wearing it.

I doubt it will be an issue. All the "complaints" are from people on the forum that would never associate/RP with those people that would choose to buy it, for whatever reason. I suspect that this thread will die out until the next "Weekend entertainment" thread is created.  

Edited July 9, 2022 by Sam1 Bellisserian

[Love Zhaoying]

34 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

You don't blame one of the major shopping event organizers for including this item in their FLF sales YET you expect every Tom, Dick and Harry to know exactly what they are buying and what they represent should they wear this? 

 

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I checked back and didn't see anything approximating a logo. So, not sure what that was about.

No need...It's not hard to pull up Seraphim and figure out what store it is. Took me all of 30 seconds.

Ok, first of all - I totally missed that this was at a "major shopping event".  Wow!!!

And second: I also didn't notice "Seraphim" which would have helped me, maybe.

Sorry, I'm "comprehension-challenged"!!

Maybe I poop-post so quickly that skimming is involved..but missing the "point" is bad.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Love Zhaoying
Did not know that the s-word ending in "e" was filtered! Now I know! TMYK and WYKYK

[Ayashe Ninetails]

41 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

So, unless someone has something pertinent to say about that issue, I'll just thank Pixie for raising this question, and quietly bow out.

Kinda? I'll simply say that, as someone who strongly believes in researching what I do not know, I took a dip into the ole Flickroonie and inworld and carefully examined some of the symbols. One in particular does happen to match what I found in descriptions and RL photos taken at rallies/protests/what have you around the country. There are several known variations, so I wanted to be sure.

Then I spent some time reading up on the movement itself (it's actually not a formal group with a set membership), its origins, who it generally appeals to and who generally attends events (surprise! - there is a mix of political ideologies and some are aligned with left-leaning issues as well), what their goals are, what people have been accused of doing, what some have pleaded guilty to in court, etc. This is all info that's public and available via Google or the official DOJ site or elsewhere, so I'm not going to post photos or details or anything. Everyone's capable of doing their own homework and honestly - if you have concerns or are just too damn curious for your own good (like meeeeee) and don't want to go solely by the info in this thread, I'd encourage you (not YOU, but you all) to research these things for yourself before making a decision either way. If you care enough about it, of course. Many won't, and that's fine, too. It's helpful for me to learn these things as they come up, not for SL purposes but RL, since again, these groups exist in my local sphere and they're growing in popularity.

As for the SL question - I'm satisfied enough by what I've found to stand by my original statement. I also stand by my statement that it shouldn't be banned from sale, but instead just go on existing and let people make their own informed decisions about it.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

As for the SL question - I'm satisfied enough by what I've found to stand by my original statement. I also stand by my statement that it shouldn't be banned from sale, but instead just go on existing and let people make their own informed decisions about it.

If this were the case, I'd vote for "LL should add warning tags to potentially offensive or objectionable items that have been flagged by users" to clue in the clueless. 

Sounds dumb, I know..but it seems to work with FaceBook..!

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

37 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Wray (FBI Director) contradicts Biden on antifa, saying it’s not just an idea — and it’s a real threat

“So, we take anarchist violent extremism, much of which associates with the antifa movement, very seriously. ... It is something that we investigate very aggressively, and in fact, the number of investigations in that space is something that’s dramatically increased on my watch over the last few years. And I think last year, we had more arrests in the anarchic violent extremism space than in the prior three years combined,” Link

I won't deny that some of the Antifa people are nasty, but your point about  them not being just an "idea" is out of context. There was a discussion about whether Antifa is an ideology (Biden misspoke and said "idea") vs a group with members and meeting places. It's an ideology.

But the important point is that they were not at the Jan 6 insurrection that tried to circumvent the election required for the US to exist as a Democracy instead of a one-party autocratic state.

FBI Director Wray: No Apparent Antifa Involvement in Jan. 6 Attack

"Those who have been arrested for their involvement in the deadly melee so far are white supremacist and members of far-right extremist groups, the Director Wray told Congress". 

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2021-03-02/fbi-director-wray-no-apparent-antifa-involvement-in-jan-6-attack

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

I won't deny that some of the Antifa people are nasty, but your point about  them not being just an "idea" is out of context. There was a discussion about whether Antifa is an ideology (Biden misspoke and said "idea") vs a group with members and meeting places. It's an ideology.

But the important point is that they were not at the Jan 6 insurrection that tried to circumvent the election required for the US to exist as a Democracy instead of a one-party autocratic state.

FBI Director Wray: No Apparent Antifa Involvement in Jan. 6 Attack

"Those who have been arrested for their involvement in the deadly melee so far are white supremacist and members of far-right extremist groups, the Director Wray told Congress". 

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2021-03-02/fbi-director-wray-no-apparent-antifa-involvement-in-jan-6-attack

It almost seems like the entire bringing-up of Antifa (not by you) is somehow to distract from, you know..

..The propriety of having certain items in the Second Life Marketplace.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

If this were the case, I'd vote for "LL should add warning tags to potentially offensive or objectionable items that have been flagged by users" to clue in the clueless. 

Sounds dumb, I know..but it seems to work with FaceBook..!

I dunno. A tagging system sounds good in theory, but I mean...people are gonna flag everything for all kinds of silly reasons. And being someone who absolutely HATED "Parental Advisory: Explicit Lyrics" labels on my cassettes and CDs, I'm just not in favor of that kind of thing lol. To be honest, it made me want to listen to stuff MORE. 

[Lindal Kidd]

37 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Wray (FBI Director) contradicts Biden on antifa, saying it’s not just an idea — and it’s a real threat

Thanks, Arielle. I read your linked article. I had two takeaways:

1. FBI Director Wray is concerned about "violent anarchist extremists".
2. He'd like to say that these extremists were on the left (antifa), but cannot. Some are, some aren't.

His main point, that they are violent, is quite valid and he's right to be concerned.

Like you and like Wray, I'm a conservative. I'd like to blame it all on antifa, too. But there is no "antifa", it's smoke. Some of the violence comes from the left. MOST of the violence has come, and this has been factually established by arrests and indictments, from far right anarchist extremists.

I'm a conservative, yes indeed. I am NOT in agreement, in bed with, or approve of, violent extremists...on the left OR the right.

But all of this is a long way from the actual topic, as Love reminds us.

I like Hawaiian shirts, the Resident Geek owns several of them. I like (on him, not me) camping and photography vests. But I'll be sure to remind him not to combine them in any sort of (urgh) "fashion statement".

[Kathlen Onyx]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

It almost seems like the entire bringing-up of Antifa (not by you) is somehow to distract from, you know..

..The propriety of having certain items in the Second Life Marketplace.

Maybe it's none of our business if the store has certain items in the Second Life Marketplace.  I'm sure that this thread has tipped off whomever needs to know, by Quartz Mole acknowledging it, so now it's up to Linden Labs to decide

[Love Zhaoying]

For the record: I think some of the "side-discussions" are very valid about whether the items being discussed "are, or are not" within the propriety of items which should be OK for sale in the Second Life Marketplace.

Here is my logic: 

If we merely assume "yes" or "no" but the actual examples are very..grey area..for SOME people,

then it is hard to properly come to any "yes" or "no" for the actual examples..

without a discussion of WHY those example items may or may not..

be within the propriety of items which should be OK for sale in the Second Life Marketplace.