At the risk of getting in trouble…

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Maybe it's none of our business if the store has certain items in the Second Life Marketplace.  I'm sure that this thread has tipped off whomever needs to know, by Quartz Mole acknowledging it, so now it's up to Linden Labs to decide

Good point. Either AR the items, or don't. 

No need to "call out" the store, goodness me! That wouldn't be prudent. And it would be against the Forum Guidelines!

I wonder, in that case - how do you let your friends know "don't buy from that store"? Just tell your friends!

Amirite?

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

I like Hawaiian shirts, the Resident Geek owns several of them. I like (on him, not me) camping and photography vests. But I'll be sure to remind him not to combine them in any sort of (urgh) "fashion statement".

There's always "Hey look hon, I came up with a shocking and tasteless Halloween costume!"

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

7 minutes ago, Sam1 Bellisserian said:

Maybe it's none of our business if the store has certain items in the Second Life Marketplace.

It's my business to report anything abusive. Just like when I see child abuse stuff.

Edited July 9, 2022 by Kiera Clutterbuck

[Rowan Amore]

While violence can – and does – occur in conflicts between antifa actors and right-wing extremists, it is important to reject attempts to claim equivalence between antifa and the white supremacist and other right-wing extremist groups they oppose. Antifa adherents reject racism, and only a small, militant element use violent tactics to express this opposition. White supremacists and other right-wing extremists, on the other hand, use even more extreme violence to spread their ideologies of hate, to intimidate marginalized communities, and to undermine democratic norms. Right-wing extremists have been one of the largest and most consistent sources of domestic terror incidents in the United States for many years; they have murdered hundreds of people in this country over the last ten years alone.  To date, there has been only one suspected antifa-related murder, which took place on August 29, 2020, in Portland, Oregon.

Who are Antifa? | ADL

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I dunno. A tagging system sounds good in theory, but I mean...people are gonna flag everything for all kinds of silly reasons. And being someone who absolutely HATED "Parental Advisory: Explicit Lyrics" labels on my cassettes and CDs, I'm just not in favor of that kind of thing lol. To be honest, it made me want to listen to stuff MORE. 

If AR's are reviewed..and there was a "tagging system", wouldn't the AR's for that be tagged also?

I'd hope LL would do as good a job on "tagging" as they do on everything else..

..which is a Brilliant job!

[Arielle Popstar]

12 minutes ago, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

I won't deny that some of the Antifa people are nasty, but your point about  them not being just an "idea" is out of context. There was a discussion about whether Antifa is an ideology (Biden misspoke and said "idea") vs a group with members and meeting places. It's an ideology.

But the important point is that they were not at the Jan 6 insurrection that tried to circumvent the election required for the US to exist as a Democracy instead of a one-party autocratic state.

FBI Director Wray: No Apparent Antifa Involvement in Jan. 6 Attack

"Those who have been arrested for their involvement in the deadly melee so far are white supremacist and members of far-right extremist groups, the Director Wray told Congress". 

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2021-03-02/fbi-director-wray-no-apparent-antifa-involvement-in-jan-6-attack

Well a selfie Youtube video shows an Antifa member getting footage of himself and others entering, inciting and breaking Federal property at the Capitol Hill, January 6. Antifa members seem to always wear masks and since you and others have stated that Trump supporters never do, it must mean most of those seen in the video were Antifa.

So anyone selling and or wearing a mask inworld must be associated with Antifa? That is no more of a stretch then a Hawaiian shirt being a representative of a white supremacist group.

 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

If AR's are reviewed..and there was a "tagging system", wouldn't the AR's for that be tagged also?

I'd hope LL would do as good a job on "tagging" as they do on everything else..

..which is a Brilliant job!

I think the absolute last thing LL wants is to have to review a gatrillion user-submitted store/MP flags to determine whether or not they warrant a specialized tag for the merchandise at said store.

It's a lot easier to just take notice of something that seems a bit off, confirm if it indeed means what it seems to mean via the usual methods (research/talk to the owner/whatevs), and then decide whether or not you want to shop there.

[Arielle Popstar]

17 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Thanks, Arielle. I read your linked article. I had two takeaways:

1. FBI Director Wray is concerned about "violent anarchist extremists".
2. He'd like to say that these extremists were on the left (antifa), but cannot. Some are, some aren't.

His main point, that they are violent, is quite valid and he's right to be concerned.

Like you and like Wray, I'm a conservative. I'd like to blame it all on antifa, too. But there is no "antifa", it's smoke. Some of the violence comes from the left. MOST of the violence has come, and this has been factually established by arrests and indictments, from far right anarchist extremists.

I'm a conservative, yes indeed. I am NOT in agreement, in bed with, or approve of, violent extremists...on the left OR the right.

But all of this is a long way from the actual topic, as Love reminds us.

I like Hawaiian shirts, the Resident Geek owns several of them. I like (on him, not me) camping and photography vests. But I'll be sure to remind him not to combine them in any sort of (urgh) "fashion statement".

Thanks Lindal, noted. I'm not looking though to blame it on Antifa but only to point out the double standard some in this thread are using to justify calling out supposed dress by one group while turning a blind eye to the dress of another extremist group. 

[Kiera Clutterbuck]

9 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Well a selfie Youtube video shows an Antifa member getting footage of himself and others entering, inciting and breaking Federal property at the Capitol Hill, January 6. Antifa members seem to always wear masks and since you and others have stated that Trump supporters never do, it must mean most of those seen in the video were Antifa.

So anyone selling and or wearing a mask inworld must be associated with Antifa? That is no more of a stretch then a Hawaiian shirt being a representative of a white supremacist group.

 

So you try to prove a point by quoting FBI agent Wray, but then deny his statements when I quote Wray saying Antifa was not present at the Jan 6 insurrection?

Did you read what Rowan quoted?

While violence can – and does – occur in conflicts between antifa actors and right-wing extremists, it is important to reject attempts to claim equivalence between antifa and the white supremacist and other right-wing extremist groups they oppose. Antifa adherents reject racism, and only a small, militant element use violent tactics to express this opposition. White supremacists and other right-wing extremists, on the other hand, use even more extreme violence to spread their ideologies of hate, to intimidate marginalized communities, and to undermine democratic norms. Right-wing extremists have been one of the largest and most consistent sources of domestic terror incidents in the United States for many years; they have murdered hundreds of people in this country over the last ten years alone.  To date, there has been only one suspected antifa-related murder, which took place on August 29, 2020, in Portland, Oregon.

Who are Antifa? | ADL

Edited July 9, 2022 by Kiera Clutterbuck

[Scylla Rhiadra]

As useful as the information on the semi-mythical Antifa is, can I again point out that this a deflection, another example of "what-aboutism"?

The item in question clearly does not represent Antifa. I have never seen a representation of Antifa in SL, and speaking as someone who co-runs a couple of explicitly Leftist political groups, that's probably pretty telling. And, in fact, a quick search on the MP find exactly two items tagged as "Antifa," one of which is a tee with "Revolution" printed on the front, and other an anti-Antifa tee shirt.

If someone can point to a representation of Antifa in SL that implicitly dog whistles violence, I'll be happy to condemn it, publicly: I'm a pacifist, and I don't agree with the tactics of those who confront fascist and neoNazi groups with violence.

As it is, however, the discussion of Antifa is a characteristic ploy to deflect attention away from the actual point of the discussion.

[Pixie Kobichenko]

9 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Well a selfie Youtube video shows an Antifa member getting footage of himself and others entering, inciting and breaking Federal property at the Capitol Hill, January 6. Antifa members seem to always wear masks and since you and others have stated that Trump supporters never do, it must mean most of those seen in the video were Antifa.

So anyone selling and or wearing a mask inworld must be associated with Antifa? That is no more of a stretch then a Hawaiian shirt being a representative of a white supremacist group.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/07/29/fact-check-john-sullivan-not-antifa-member-jan-6-capitol-riot/5405679001/

[Love Zhaoying]

7 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I think the absolute last thing LL wants is to have to review a gatrillion user-submitted store/MP flags to determine whether or not they warrant a specialized tag for the merchandise at said store.

It's a lot easier to just take notice of something that seems a bit off, confirm if it indeed means what it seems to mean via the usual methods (research/talk to the owner/whatevs), and then decide whether or not you want to shop there.

I don't disagree, it's too bad people miss subtle clues, and won't do the research.

[Arielle Popstar]

Just now, Kiera Clutterbuck said:

So you try to prove a point by quoting FBI agent Wray, but then deny his statements when I quote Wray saying Antifa was not present at the Jan 6 insurrection?

Did you read what Rowan wrote quoted?

While violence can – and does – occur in conflicts between antifa actors and right-wing extremists, it is important to reject attempts to claim equivalence between antifa and the white supremacist and other right-wing extremist groups they oppose. Antifa adherents reject racism, and only a small, militant element use violent tactics to express this opposition. White supremacists and other right-wing extremists, on the other hand, use even more extreme violence to spread their ideologies of hate, to intimidate marginalized communities, and to undermine democratic norms. Right-wing extremists have been one of the largest and most consistent sources of domestic terror incidents in the United States for many years; they have murdered hundreds of people in this country over the last ten years alone.  To date, there has been only one suspected antifa-related murder, which took place on August 29, 2020, in Portland, Oregon.

Who are Antifa? | ADL

The video evidence may simply point out that the FBI was not involved and it was handled on a local level. 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

I think I missed the Antifa merch posted in this weekend's sales. If someone could DM a way-too-curious gal a linkie to it, I'll get right on researching and analyzing the imagery so I can make an informed decision about the store in question. ❤️

[Love Zhaoying]

11 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Antifa members seem to always wear masks and since you and others have stated that Trump supporters never do, it must mean most of those seen in the video were Antifa.

Nice argument! 

However, people hiding their identity wear masks, which has nothing to do with other "don't wanna wear a mask" topics.

Your post was kind of funny, almost.

Good job!

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

I think I missed the Antifa merch posted in this weekend's sales. If someone could DM a way-too-curious gal a linkie to it, I'll get right on researching and analyzing the imagery so I can make an informed decision about the store in question. ❤️

While I would not personally wear "Antifa" specific garb..

I would proudly wear a "Punch a Nazi!" T-shirt. 

I hope such a T-shirt would be within the propriety of items for sale Second Life Marketplace.

Even if "Good People" would not approve.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

25 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

If AR's are reviewed..and there was a "tagging system", wouldn't the AR's for that be tagged also?

I'd hope LL would do as good a job on "tagging" as they do on everything else..

..which is a Brilliant job!

One thing they could do, and it's something I've been advocating for since 2009, is expand the ratings system (G/M/A) to include a separate category for violence. Such a category would include articles of apparel or props that are associated with violence, including guns, military uniforms, tactical outfits, etc.

And it would be "non-political": there'd be no reason to complain that LL was singling out right wing culture.

[Ceka Cianci]

5 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

How hurtful they are, to the image of us nuts who manage to not kill people! 

I guess it depends on what you consider nuts.. Nuts is a level that someone reaches.. Those people reached it.

[Arielle Popstar]

15 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

As useful as the information on the semi-mythical Antifa is, can I again point out that this a deflection, another example of "what-aboutism"?

It is more than "what-aboutism" in that hitherto it was against forum policy to call out creators on their products or business practices but it would seem from this thread that the policy has changed somewhat so is this only relevant for products related to white supremacist groups or does it extend further to anything someone may find objectionable?

In law, consistency is the hallmark of a good justice system that treats everyone equally, and so by extension do policies. It is a valid equivalency to question whether policies would be applied equally.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

does it extend further to anything someone may find objectionable

Pretty sure it always has, Arielle. The Pet Peeves thread is stuffed to the gills with people finding things for sale objectionable. There are entire threads about how this or that mesh head, body, outfit, or what-have-you, often explicitly named, are "bad," employ terrible business practices, and so on. Do a quick search here for "Legacy" or "Meshbody" or "TMP," for instance.

If you find something objectionable in SL, why don't you give it a shot, and start a thread? Look for a leftist group, perhaps, that represents something absolutely awful like violence?

Edited July 9, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Love Zhaoying]

22 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

hitherto

Yes, but whilst..

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[Love Zhaoying]

33 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I guess it depends on what you consider nuts.. Nuts is a level that someone reaches.. Those people reached it.

I'm not saying "wearing a Napoleon hat sideways with 'N' printed on the side, hand in the shirt Napoleon-esque, eyes crossed, and tongue sticking out" (a classic cartoon image which I can never find), I'm just saying:

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Love Zhaoying

[Dyna Mole]

This has been a robust discussion and it has been civil, for the most part. However,  it is having trouble staying on the OP's topic, which @Quartz Mole paraphrased earlier as "the propriety, or otherwise, of selling, in SL, outfits associated with US paramilitary groups".  Please do not wander off into arguments about the RL activities of extremist groups or into making political statements. If the thread wanders off topic one more time, we will close it.

[Waterfall Farshore]

This thread understandably introduces a question that we are more than happy to clear up but also begins to make assumptions about our brand and our customers that are harmful and untrue. We have and want nothing to do with any extremists side and anyone who causes harm to other people. In 2022, I would expect people to be more educated before making assumptions, especially when you haven't contacted the brand in question on such a topic you brought to the forums. The CIA and DEA often combined the two (tropical shirts & ballistic vests) during the narcos days which is where our inspiration comes from, not to mention the cops in Miami at this time who also sported a similar look back in the day. At the core of our brand, we support armed forces and law enforcement, not crazy folks who hurt others, that's not how we think or operate. We also don't support Antifa either, yet we make all-black outfits. At heart, we love tactical gear and all things that are involved such as CIA, DEA, and special forces rp. We also love parody, hence our name so we try not to take our segment in tactical gear, police rp, etc too seriously. I hope I cleared this up and I have to say the customers I do know who support me month to month are great people at heart and love to roleplay many different groups who do our communities in real life an incredible service. I've always supported them as in my mind its a way to pay homage. They deserve better than to be grouped into any extremist category on any side, nor do we intend on them being grouped into such groups. At the end of the day you're welcome to have opinions and beliefs but please don't make harmful comments about people or brands you don't know. 

 

Please, reach out before making assumptions in the future.

 

Best,

Waterfall Farshore // Wazzer Works

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Waterfall Farshore
grammar, removed logo

[Scylla Rhiadra]

18 minutes ago, Waterfall Farshore said:

This thread understandably introduces a question that we are more than happy to clear up but also begins to make assumptions about our brand and our customers that are harmful and untrue. We have and want nothing to do with any extremists side and anyone who causes harm to other people. In 2022, I would expect people to be more educated before making assumptions, especially when you haven't contacted the brand in question on such a topic you brought to the forums. The CIA and DEA often combined the two (tropical shirts & ballistic vests) during the narcos days which is where our inspiration comes from, not to mention the cops in Miami at this time who also sported a similar look back in the day. At the core of our brand, we support armed forces and law enforcement, not crazy folks who hurt others, that's not how we think or operate. We also don't support Antifa either, yet we make all-black outfits. At heart, we love tactical gear and all things that are involved such as CIA, DEA, and special forces rp. We also love parody, hence our name so we try not to take our segment in tactical gear, police rp, etc too seriously. I hope I cleared this up and I have to say the customers I do know who support me month to month are great people at heart and love to roleplay many different groups who do our communities in real life an incredible service. I've always supported them as in my mind its a way to pay homage. They deserve better than to be grouped into any extremist category on any side, nor do we intend on them being grouped into such groups. At the end of the day you're welcome to have opinions and beliefs but please don't make harmful comments about people or brands you don't know. 

 

Please, reach out before making assumptions in the future.

 

Best,

Waterfall Farshore // Wazzer Works

Thanks for this.

I'll note that you were contacted -- or you wouldn't be here now?

You do not address the other items in your catalogue that seem to problematize your claim -- military style gloves that display the white supremacist "Ok" gesture, and the "Make Second Life Great" banners that you semi-apologize for, but continue to sell - - but possibly you haven't read the entire thread, and aren't aware these were also discussed by way of providing further context for the sale items.

I personally don't find your disclaimer very credible, but that's fine -- I'm just one potential customer. I'm glad that you've had the opportunity to post here and lay out your own case. Others will make their own determinations.

Might I suggest, however, that you might really prove your point by removing that one particular item from sale? Or even issue a disclaimer?

PS. [Redacted, as it no longer applies]

Edited July 9, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra