Do Religious Cults and "Secret Societies" Exist in SL?

[Love Zhaoying]

1 minute ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Love Zhaoying if you think it isn't a cult, why aren't you a member of that sect and not calling yourself Hindu in the mainstream sense? You must still perceive it as "non-mainstream" at least.

That's like saying, "if you're a Christian, why aren't you a ______?"

While I've participated in chants about Krishna, as a Hindu, Krishna is not my ishta devata (chosen form of Hindu worship). Even if it were, that wouldn't mean that I'd have the literal karma to be attracted to the teachings of Prabhupada, or his interpretation of Bhagavad Gita. 
 

On another level, since Krishna is said to be a literal avatar of Vishnu, and Vishnu also isn't a "chosen form" I focus on, that's another reason.

Stepping back a bit further, I'm more into what Krishna (and thereby Vishnu) represent, and how they do connect to the supreme forms that are the focus of my worship. 

Im not sure if you'd prefer an explanation that focuses on jnani, bhakti, vedas, tantras, tattvas, shakti, kundalini, or non-dualistic monotheism. I could list a lot more vantage points from which to view it. Let me know!

[Love Zhaoying]

12 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I think "cult" here has sort of generally come to mean "something I don't like" or "something to which I was not invited."

I like the good old-fashioned definition, "a group of people with a focus on XXX". In Catholic terms for instance, "the cult of St. Francis". Didn't mean anything bad.

[Love Zhaoying]

17 minutes ago, Ayashe Ninetails said:

A definition would be helpful, too. I still have no idea what that means.

Then again, it's likely off-topic, since we're discussing examples of cults in-world. Or...something. I think? 🤷‍♀️ 

This thread is somewhat confusing.

Soup and bread in-world leaves you hungry. I bet the Hare Krishna's in-world are less "creepy" than the ones at US airports. 

[Ayashe Ninetails]

11 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It is, but the thing about "secret societies" and such is that they tend to be, um, "secret."

Yup! That was my initial point earlier in the thread. As outsiders, there's absolutely no way for us to know what exists and to what extent. None of that would be public IMO.

 

11 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Also confusing is the question of what is actually a "cult," in the sense of having RL effects (indoctrination, etc.), and what is RP. I suspect there are a great many groups that RP "being a cult," but leave it behind when they aren't actively engaged in that RP. I'm sure there are a few instances where that isn't true -- the RL Goreans mentioned above probably are pretty cultish. But that's awfully rare.

Totally agree, though I went with the more common definition (Jonestown, etc.). So, no RP at all. Just real people actually following someone charismatic for whatever reason. Recruitment does happen on the Internet in general - on regular websites and social media - so it's interesting (to me, at least) to wonder if such things exist within SL. Me and my morbid curiosity again. 😂

 

11 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

As for the other things -- the non-existent FIC, "wokeness," and even things like racist or misogynist groups -- I don't think these qualify. They are at best an articulation of a set of beliefs or assumptions.

Nah, I agree here, too. To me, that's entirely different. Hate groups, anti-*insert group here* groups, etc. Absolutely a thing, and some DO appear in search. Those absolutely DO exist (and it's all quite vile).

[AnthonyJoanne]

5 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The issue of whether something violates the ToS and Community Standards is a somewhat vexed one, because these are frequently rather vague. Let's take this one, for instance:

Outright antisemitic RP, for instance, is likely to get zapped pretty quickly by LL under this rule -- and quite rightly so.

But I can point you to pretty clearly racist groups, or anti-Muslim ones, that seem to be just fine so far as LL is concerned. As for gender -- there are scores of groups and clubs with variants on "women are inferior," "women are all sl*ts," etc., given not merely as passing opinions, but as the actual raison d'etre of the groups. Here's the group profile image for one such:

Is this "derogatory or demeaning language or images based on . . . gender"?

Apparently . . . not.

LL are wise to leave that alone.

Because if they touch that ... then they are going to have to deal with of the myriad of groups and sims which operated on the principal that 'men are inferior', and  'non-black are inferior'.

Both of those, shall we call them 'themes', are by far the most common of the ones which are borderline.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, AnthonyJoanne said:

LL are wise to leave that alone.

Because if they touch that ... then they are going to have to deal with of the myriad of groups and sims which operated on the principal that 'men are inferior', and  'non-black are inferior'.

Both of those, shall we call them 'themes', are by far the most common of the ones which are borderline.

This is moving a bit off topic, so I'll just answer this, and then leave the subject alone.

Personally, I have as much problem with a group that proclaims the superiority of women over men, blacks over whites, gays over straights, or whatever, as I do the opposite kind of group. But such groups are not nearly as prevalent in SL as their counterparts, and they don't reflect a dominant strain of our culture in the way that racist, misogynist, or homophobic groups do. What's more, many of the groups that look, at first glance, to be advocating for the superiority of women, or blacks, or whatever, aren't really: a group for "white sl*ve women who want to serve the men of the black master race" isn't really a black empowerment group.

I don't advocate for banning any of these groups, for a number of reasons. One is that it doesn't work: it just drives them underground. Anyone who thinks that age pl*y disappeared from the grid in 2007 hasn't done a very diligent search of groups, profiles, sims, or the Marketplace. I actually want these people where I can see them -- I want to know where the sleaze is oozing. It becomes a problem if they achieve a high profile, or seem to have the endorsement of authority or media, but that's not what's happening: these groups are quite happy to operate in the shadows. Arguably that makes them a bit cult-like . . . but not in most regards, I think.

LL is, I am sincerely convinced, mostly staffed by really decent people, many of whom I think would count themselves as "progressives." But the "official" ethical stance of the platform isn't coming from them; it's being generated by LL's legal department and, maybe just occasionally, marketing and PR. LL has almost never cracked down on an in-world behaviour until forced to by bad PR, regulatory threats from governments, or worries about legal action. That was true of the ban on age pl*y, and it was true of the bans on SL banking, gambling, and gachas.

In theory, LL should be a bit worried by recent stories about "sexual assaults" on Meta's Horizon -- the stuff happening there being sensationalized in the media now is laughably mild compared to what goes on in SL. In theory, SL is one really bad mainstream media story away from yet another public relations disaster.

One of the good things, ironically, about its reputation and low profile is that no one can likely be bothered to produce one.

Edited June 14, 2022 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Akane Nacht]

7 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Hindu in the mainstream sense?

there's a mainstream? 😄

it really depends on where you are and who you ask. 

[Akane Nacht]

31 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

One of the good things, ironically, about its reputation and low profile is that no one can likely be bothered to produce one.

Yeah, it's not exactly news that we're still naughty after all these years. 

[AnthonyJoanne]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Personally, I have as much problem with a group that proclaims the superiority of women over men, blacks over whites, gays over straights, or whatever, as I do the opposite kind of group. But such groups are not nearly as prevalent in SL as their counterparts, and they don't reflect a dominant strain of our culture in the way that racist, misogynist, or homophobic groups do.

 

Sorry - but you are entirely wrong.

You have merely to go to group search, plug in some relevant terms, and you'll find that female-superiority and black-superiority groups are present in equal or greater numbers to their opposites, and that they have significantly more members.

Your mistake, and it's a common one, is to assume that this has ANY bearing on RL racism or sexism.

These groups are 99% fetishes, and nothing else.

And that is why LL are wise to leave them alone. That was my point.

(What those fetishes tell us about society in general is another topic, and it's WAY off topic for this thread. And any conclusions we might draw would be debatable anyway.)

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 hour ago, AnthonyJoanne said:

These groups are 99% fetishes, and nothing else.

Well, yes, they are fetishes.

So too, notoriously, is age pl*y. Are we "ok" with that because it's "just" a fetish, and no actually minors are involved (probably)? How about "Sexy Concentration Camp Commandant"? Or KKK role play? Where have you drawn the line -- or do you draw one at all?

What I'm trying to suggest is that this is a wee bit more complicated than "they are fetishes and nothing else."

I don't have "the answer" -- if I did, I'd be on the lecture circuit right now instead of replying to you on the SL forum.

But it's certainly too complicated to deal with here, in what is fast becoming a derail, so let's just leave it at "we agree to disagree."

[Kalegthepsionicist]

21 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Care to elaborate a bit more ... 

I already hav many hater here, lol , 

you want to bait me , no wayyyy

Edited June 14, 2022 by Kalegthepsionicist

[Prokofy Neva]

14 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

That's like saying, "if you're a Christian, why aren't you a ______?"

While I've participated in chants about Krishna, as a Hindu, Krishna is not my ishta devata (chosen form of Hindu worship). Even if it were, that wouldn't mean that I'd have the literal karma to be attracted to the teachings of Prabhupada, or his interpretation of Bhagavad Gita. 
 

On another level, since Krishna is said to be a literal avatar of Vishnu, and Vishnu also isn't a "chosen form" I focus on, that's another reason.

Stepping back a bit further, I'm more into what Krishna (and thereby Vishnu) represent, and how they do connect to the supreme forms that are the focus of my worship. 

Im not sure if you'd prefer an explanation that focuses on jnani, bhakti, vedas, tantras, tattvas, shakti, kundalini, or non-dualistic monotheism. I could list a lot more vantage points from which to view it. Let me know!

It's not really an answer to my question, and no, it's not like saying that. Perhaps the analogy is that Catholics think some born-again Baptist group amounts to a sect, and Presbyterians might think the same, but the people in that group think they have the one true faith.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

14 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

What are your examples of this?

Why do you think there aren't examples?

[Rat Luv]

If anybody wants to start a SL Family International group, I'll join...just for the cool music videos 😍

 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Rat Luv

[Coffee Pancake]

17 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

but the people in that group think they have the one true faith.

People think they have the one true faith whatever their faith, that's kind of the point.

I mean, if someone is going to all the trouble of having a faith and sitting on the fence, probably a pretty huge sign it's time for a little introspection.

[Coffee Pancake]

1 minute ago, Rat Luv said:

If anybody wants to start a SL Family International group, I'll sign up...just for the cool music videos 😍

here we go again .. taking dystopian horror and making it a fundamental part of society. If we ever meet aliens this is what they will tell each other about us .. mostly harmless, but they really do go all in on the worst ideas.

To hit yourself is human. Be kind to your human, don't tell them exactly how it could be worse.

[Paulsian]

1 hour ago, Rat Luv said:

If anybody wants to start a SL Family International group, I'll join...just for the cool music videos 😍

 

Jingles catchy. humms "Rat Luv don't go to the Metaverse today ~don't go        Rat Luv don't go~.  

[Love Zhaoying]

17 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

@Love Zhaoying if you think it isn't a cult, why aren't you a member of that sect and not calling yourself Hindu in the mainstream sense? You must still perceive it as "non-mainstream" at least.

I'll try again, then. 

There are many, many Hindu sects.  Whether or not each sect "is a cult" has nothing to do with whether I am a member of that individual sect.  

I missed the part about "..and not calling yourself Hindu in the mainstream sense". This part doesn't make any sense in my context.  From my perspective, I am a Hindu in the "mainstream sense".  I'm just not a member of "that sect".  Just as - if you ask any Hindu - they may be members of a specific sect, or "no sect at all", or "multiple sects".  That does not make them "mainstream" or "not mainstream".

I tried again, I hope that answer is more satisfying for you.

If your statement "You must still perceive it as "non-mainstream" at least." is meant to be a question:  "Hare Krishna" as we understand it in the West, was brought to the West and the USA by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (mentioned earlier).  From that perspective - even if Prabhupada's teachings are indeed mainstream for worshippers of Krishna - I would agree that the Western aspect of the sect is "not mainstream".  However, were the sect "only in India", it would appear "mainstream" to Hindus in India (unless it were populated mostly by Westerners).

I hope that helps!

[Love Zhaoying]

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Perhaps the analogy is that Catholics think some born-again Baptist group amounts to a sect, and Presbyterians might think the same, but the people in that group think they have the one true faith.

I think that sounds about right. To any sect, any other sect may be "a cult", or just "another sect".  "A cult" may think  they are "just a sect".  (I have to take your specific definitions into account.)

[Ceka Cianci]

I decided to go find a definition of a cult..

A cult is a group or movement held together by a shared commitment to a charismatic leader or ideology. It has a belief system that has the answers to all of life's questions and offers a special solution to be gained only by following the leader's rules.

cult noun, often attributive

Definition of cult

 

1 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious (see spurious sense 2) also : its body of adherents the voodoo cult a satanic cult

2a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (such as a film or book) criticizing how the media promotes the cult of celebrity especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad

b : the object of such devotion

c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion the singer's cult of fans The film has a cult following.

3 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual also : its body of adherents the cult of Apollo

4 : formal religious veneration : worship

5 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator health cults

 

The Overlap of Cults and Culture

Cult, which shares an origin with culture and cultivate, comes from the Latin cultus, a noun with meanings ranging from "tilling, cultivation" to "training or education" to "adoration." In English, cult has evolved a number of meanings following a fairly logical path. The earliest known uses of the word, recorded in the 17th century, broadly denoted "worship." From here cult came to refer to a specific branch of a religion or the rites and practices of that branch, as in "the cult of Dionysus." By the early 18th century, cult could refer to a non-religious admiration or devotion, such as to a person, idea, or fad ("the cult of success"). Finally, by the 19th century, the word came to be used of "a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious."

 

Examples of cult in a Sentence

 

She has developed a cult following. long after it had gone off the air, the TV series continued to have a huge cult .

 

ETA:I had to trim some of the fat off that quote, it was a mile long.. hehehe

Edited June 14, 2022 by Ceka Cianci

[Luna Bliss]

12 hours ago, AnthonyJoanne said:

18 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The issue of whether something violates the ToS and Community Standards is a somewhat vexed one, because these are frequently rather vague. Let's take this one, for instance:

Outright antisemitic RP, for instance, is likely to get zapped pretty quickly by LL under this rule -- and quite rightly so.

But I can point you to pretty clearly racist groups, or anti-Muslim ones, that seem to be just fine so far as LL is concerned. As for gender -- there are scores of groups and clubs with variants on "women are inferior," "women are all sl*ts," etc., given not merely as passing opinions, but as the actual raison d'etre of the groups. Here's the group profile image for one such:

Is this "derogatory or demeaning language or images based on . . . gender"?

Apparently . . . not.

Expand  

LL are wise to leave that alone.

Because if they touch that ... then they are going to have to deal with of the myriad of groups and sims which operated on the principal that 'men are inferior', and  'non-black are inferior'.

Both of those, shall we call them 'themes', are by far the most common of the ones which are borderline.

I don't approve of any group whose basis is a stated superiority over other members different from themselves, and so I would also disapprove of Blacks forming a group against Whites, or Women against men. 
However, when a particular group has been harmed by another more powerful group we need to give special considerations to them due to the abuse incurred via the more powerful faction, and with hopes of preventing future abuse. This is why we're sensitive to the use of Nazi symbols and why we prevent age pl*y. 

There was a Black Holocaust in the U.S. Whatever parameters limit the expression of Nazi and age pl*y symbols should also be applied to the expression of hatred toward Blacks. These limitations should be applied regardless of whether there are Black groups with the stated purpose of excluding Whites, and regardless of whether its expression is some kind of fetish. Sexual fetishes should not get a free pass -- violence and harm to others should be the defining factor in what is allowed. The cult of violence is what needs to be addressed.

I might agree that it would be too difficult to limit what I'd like to see limited in virtual reality, but you did not make that argument. Your argument is based on a faulty premise, two of them actually (a tolerance for violence if its a fetish, stated in subsequent posts, and an excuse for groups that denigrate Blacks due to the fact there are Blacks denigrating Whites), and to start a debate with a faulty premise never works.

[Love Zhaoying]

29 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I decided to go find a definition of a cult..

A cult is a group or movement held together by a shared commitment to a charismatic leader or ideology. It has a belief system that has the answers to all of life's questions and offers a special solution to be gained only by following the leader's rules.

cult noun, often attributive

Definition of cult

 

1 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious (see spurious sense 2) also : its body of adherents the voodoo cult a satanic cult

2a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (such as a film or book) criticizing how the media promotes the cult of celebrity especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad

b : the object of such devotion

c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion the singer's cult of fans The film has a cult following.

3 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual also : its body of adherents the cult of Apollo

4 : formal religious veneration : worship

5 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator health cults

 

The Overlap of Cults and Culture

Cult, which shares an origin with culture and cultivate, comes from the Latin cultus, a noun with meanings ranging from "tilling, cultivation" to "training or education" to "adoration." In English, cult has evolved a number of meanings following a fairly logical path. The earliest known uses of the word, recorded in the 17th century, broadly denoted "worship." From here cult came to refer to a specific branch of a religion or the rites and practices of that branch, as in "the cult of Dionysus." By the early 18th century, cult could refer to a non-religious admiration or devotion, such as to a person, idea, or fad ("the cult of success"). Finally, by the 19th century, the word came to be used of "a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious."

 

Examples of cult in a Sentence

 

She has developed a cult following. long after it had gone off the air, the TV series continued to have a huge cult .

 

ETA:I had to trim some of the fat off that quote, it was a mile long.. hehehe

Personally, I think it is important to remember definitions #3 and #4.

 

[Aethelwine]

I think I might have missed a few pages browsing this on my phone, so I might have missed a reference to it. But there is the Cult of Ruth Eternal in Secondlife. 

It is not exactly secret, but the wiki has an outdated address for the Temple to Philip Linden,  so does require searching or special knowledge to find. 

Edited June 14, 2022 by Aethelwine

[Silent Mistwalker]

https://secondlife.fandom.com/wiki/Cult_of_Ruth_Eternal

https://www.flickr.com/groups/cultofrutheternal/

First two returns on a Google search.

[Luna Bliss]

45 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I decided to go find a definition of a cult..

A cult is a group or movement held together by a shared commitment to a charismatic leader or ideology. It has a belief system that has the answers to all of life's questions and offers a special solution to be gained only by following the leader's rules.

cult noun, often attributive

Definition of cult

 

1 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious (see spurious sense 2) also : its body of adherents the voodoo cult a satanic cult

2a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (such as a film or book) criticizing how the media promotes the cult of celebrity especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad

b : the object of such devotion

c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion the singer's cult of fans The film has a cult following.

3 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual also : its body of adherents the cult of Apollo

4 : formal religious veneration : worship

5 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator health cults

 

The Overlap of Cults and Culture

Cult, which shares an origin with culture and cultivate, comes from the Latin cultus, a noun with meanings ranging from "tilling, cultivation" to "training or education" to "adoration." In English, cult has evolved a number of meanings following a fairly logical path. The earliest known uses of the word, recorded in the 17th century, broadly denoted "worship." From here cult came to refer to a specific branch of a religion or the rites and practices of that branch, as in "the cult of Dionysus." By the early 18th century, cult could refer to a non-religious admiration or devotion, such as to a person, idea, or fad ("the cult of success"). Finally, by the 19th century, the word came to be used of "a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious."

 

Examples of cult in a Sentence

 

She has developed a cult following. long after it had gone off the air, the TV series continued to have a huge cult .

 

ETA:I had to trim some of the fat off that quote, it was a mile lng.. hehehe

This gives us a good sense of what a cult is, but I need to point out that scholars don't agree on all points, and sometimes academic definitions differ from definitions outside academia.

Also, there are good cults, and bad cults, but since the 70's cults are viewed more negatively.