What is rent?

[Benka Ravenhurst]

11 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

And if your are paying the estate owner or mainland owner weekly, it's rent.

Only if the estate owner maintains as the land owner; this is the proper application of the word as defined in pretty much any dictionary. You can rent or buy, both on mainland or private. If you are adverting land, the person looking for said land might prefer to own the land. If renting, they would be a tenant, one where they don't own the group but are given certain powers of dominion over the land.  

Edited March 17, 2022 by Benka Ravenhurst

[Benka Ravenhurst]

4 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

The only land you own is the land you pay Linden Lab for directly and only in so far as you keep paying the bill.

That is not true because when you buy land you have to click on a LL TOS understanding agreement, both on mainland AND in Private estates; It's right there in black and white ink. Somebody has to own the land regardless, but just because an estate owner is the default owner when land is abandoned does not mean that they are ALWAYS the land owner.

Again, the purpose of the post is to distinguish between renting a parcel and buying a parcel. Parcels of land can be rented on both the mainland AND on a private estate, but they can also be purchased. You do not need to click on that LL purchase agreement when you rent land, but you do when you buy it.

[purrrkitten]

3 minutes ago, Benka Ravenhurst said:

That is not true because when you buy land you have to click on a LL TOS understanding agreement, both on mainland AND in Private estates; It's right there in black and white ink. Somebody has to own the land regardless, but just because an estate owner is the default owner when land is abandoned does not mean that they are ALWAYS the land owner.

Again, the purpose of the post is to distinguish between renting a parcel and buying a parcel. Parcels of land can be rented on both the mainland AND on a private estate, but they can also be purchased. You do not need to click on that LL purchase agreement when you rent land, but you do when you buy it.

Are you talking about the 1 linden you have to pay to "buy" it so you can get full rights to the parcel before you go and pay the weekly rent?

[Benka Ravenhurst]

36 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Nope

 

 

11 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

As to the point that LL can come and take back the land you "own" and are paying for directly, yes, technically they can do that. In much the same way the state can eminent domain all the stuff you think you own IRL. But at that point it's becomes a pointless distinction and the domain of lawyers, both in SL and RL.

Why are we here?

It's called illusion of legitimacy and it's maintained only in so long as we remain within the scope of the topic. That scope is an in-world distinction between owning and renting. If we go outside that scope, then everything becomes an illusion, including the land; it's make believe; it does not factually exist; there are no factual owners apart from the service provider.

[Alwin Alcott]

23 minutes ago, purrrkitten said:

What inspired this?

OP had a rental offer in the RP section. But presented it as a parcel for sale. As far i see the post is removed or moved.
A few people pointed OP at the wrong section ( nor rental nor sale belongs in RP ) and the wrong interpretation about 'buying and renting" ... somehow it ended in a sleepless night i guess ( and still a wrong interpretation about selll and rent )

[Benka Ravenhurst]

2 minutes ago, purrrkitten said:

Are you talking about the 1 linden you have to pay to "buy" it so you can get full rights to the parcel before you go and pay the weekly rent?

If you click to buy a lot, clicking the LL understanding agreement that follows, in the eyes of Linden Labs, and the server that proves the service, you own the land. When you pay the estate owner to maintain that ownership, that does not make it a rental, even though the word is often inappropriately used in that context. In concise language, a rental would be where you pay the land owner money to reside on the land. Although you are paying the estate money to continue residing on the land in a land ownership situation, it is by that distinction, a form of tier.

 

Often when you look at some land sale boards, many will tell you what the tier costs are in owning land on a private estate.

[Benka Ravenhurst]

6 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

OP had a rental offer in the RP section. But presented it as a parcel for sale. As far i see the post is removed or moved.
A few people pointed OP at the wrong section ( nor rental nor sale belongs in RP ) and the wrong interpretation about 'buying and renting" ... somehow it ended in a sleepless night i guess ( and still a wrong interpretation about selll and rent )

That is what this post is for, if people think I am wrong then they are free to post a demonstration of that rather than just saying 'nope'.

[Alwin Alcott]

Just now, Benka Ravenhurst said:

 if people think I am wrong then they are free to post a demonstration of that

some tried already in that previous thread, and now already a lot more in this one. This thread is useless and a waste of time for people who want to help you.

[Solar Legion]

Point blank, if you are not directly paying Linden Lab, you are renting - period. There's no discussion on it, no gotchas. Noting whatsoever.

You cannot sell off individual parcels on a Private Region - not really. You will still retain ownership at the Estate Level.

You can sell off the entire Region if you are the actual Estate Owner. This transfers the Region wholly into the ownership of the one buying it - they are now responsible for the Private Region monthly payments.

Like it or not, if money (actual, real world money) is not going directly to Linden Lab (meaning no middle man whatsoever) then guess what? You. Are. Renting.

That is the reality.

[Kalegthepsionicist]

ok next question,

do you think all alnd owner are real user,

or actually mpstly are linden agent. ?

because I believe without intervention from developer no economic can run smooth

Edited March 17, 2022 by Kalegthepsionicist

[Polenth Yue]

40 minutes ago, Benka Ravenhurst said:

That is what this post is for, if people think I am wrong then they are free to post a demonstration of that rather than just saying 'nope'.

This is where we're hitting the problem. Most people in Second Life simply don't care if they're technically renting or not or whether they technically own the land or not. They know what they've got and who they need to pay. That's all that matters to most people in the end.

This is why I asked why you posted this, because it was clear that to you, this is the most important thing in the universe right now. It is vitally important that you show people you are right about your definition of rent and they are so very wrong. Which was a bit puzzling given the topic, as it's a piece of language trivia.

I can see now that you were upset that you got a post deleted for being in the wrong place, but this thread isn't going to help that. The moderators aren't going to argue it with you. If they say you need to post a thing in a certain place and not where you did, that's what you've got to do. Regular forum users don't control that.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Polenth Yue

[So Whimsy]

The problem here is that the rent and sale definitions have been made almost two decades ago within the world of second life and are well established.

Swimming against the stream like the OP does opens them up to potential troubles with future renters because of miscommunication. They (the renters) are likely to feel they have made a purchase under false pretenses.

Edited March 17, 2022 by So Whimsy
typo

[Benka Ravenhurst]

I blame the state run education system, as it's more to indoctrinate rather than reveal truth. That being said, I'll help by posing a real life example.

 

First, the title of ownership in Second Life is not based on possession as it is in real life, but on accountability. Linden Labs has a tremendous accountability for what their users do which is a very real life issue.

 

Take for example a state of the united states. States acquire deeds to the lands within their boundaries issued by the federal government; this is how they earn money.  When you buy land, the state issues you a title to the deed which will have the name of the state on it.

To be clear, you are not buying the deed, only the title of being declared land owner by the state. Meanwhile the state, having the deed, has domain to charge tax, set covenants (zoning restrictions) or even strip you of that title through eminent domain. 

 

Why?

 

Because they have eminent domain silly. This is why when you pay property tax it goes to the deed holder (state) and not the federal government. Governments of other nations have similar schemes, but this is good example of ownership based on possession.

 

To keep the local government from coming into Linden Labs and unplugging their servers from the walls, Linden Labs needs a good arm of oversight. As such, they created a Pyramid of Accountability, additional agreements the users agree to in return for the title of being called owner.

 

Land owners are accountable for what they allow people to do on their land. Estate Owners have even greater accountability in terms of what goes on in their estate, with Linden Labs having the highest and most incalculable degree of accountability.

 

Accountability comes in proportion to risk, the higher the accountability the higher the risk.   People are then encouraged to police activities that ultimate keep the grid safe from shut down.

 

Estate owners, like a real life state, holds dominion to charge tax on people who the estate issues title of ownership,  as per Linden Labs Pyramid of Accountability; yes, that extra click of acknowledgment before buying.

 

It does not mean that said individual is renting the land because a rental does not implicate such title; that sort of accountability is not shared as equally as it is with ownership.

This is not to say that a renter cannot be equally punished, but at the same time, it is very difficult for a land owner to prove that he was unaware of child porn rezzed on his land; the odds are against the player here.  

Edited March 17, 2022 by Benka Ravenhurst

[Raspberry Crystal]

Unless you are running a grid on your own pc, then everyone here is renting, it is just different kinds of contract. Even LL are renting the server space.

[Benka Ravenhurst]

16 minutes ago, Raspberry Crystal said:

Unless you are running a grid on your own pc, then everyone here is renting, it is just different kinds of contract. Even LL are renting the server space

That's a real world concept, one that is common knowledge. As I pointed out in my post above, Linden Labs does not issue ownership based on that kind of possession, but on virtual  accountability which has REAL LIFE implications. You are granted the title of owner by the system in exchange for that acknowledgment of accountability. Land owners, estate owners, group owners, as well as even creators of content, bare more accountability bequeathed by that title, than a noob user just signing up.  

Edited March 17, 2022 by Benka Ravenhurst

[Kathlen Onyx]

I have to laugh that a thread was specifically created for this.  Again, I have to point out that whether or not someone is renting or buying the land from you that your covenant is so tightly wound with rules that just sitting on the land might get you evicted.  I wouldn't take this land from you if it were free.

[Rowan Amore]

Tier only refers to mainland.

Mainland has no covenant aside from the Linden homes regions.  Any land owner on mainland, just as on a private estate, can set their own.

Did you purchase your estate directly from LL?

I really do suggest you read the knowledge base articles concerning land.

Also from the Renting Land from other residents page...

The landlord always has the final say

When renting land on a private estate, the "owner" in ABOUT LAND - GENERAL shows your name, but the landlord reserves the right to change that at any time. This means they can reclaim the land and offer it to someone else on a whim. Linden Lab doesn't mediate if your landlord is hostile.

[Ayashe Ninetails]

At present, I *rent* a 1408sqm "plot" 3253m up in the sky in a private estate/region. Like the normal process for obtaining land in a private estate goes, I paid my 1L to "purchase" (more accurately - reserve) the rectangle platform, agreed to the terms, and zipped right over to my estate owner's commercial sim where our payment kiosks are located and paid the *rent* for a week. Rent is paid to the estate owner - not LL.

I've been with the same company for years - moving between ground and sky - and everything has been as smooth as butter, but I'm under no impression that I actually own anything. Yes, I have full rights to the current "plot" and I'm listed as the owner - I can deed, sublet, change media, list in search, use an orb, put up any type of home, all that. I cannot, however, terraform, because I have confirmed with the estate owner's CSRs in the beginning that I am allowed to move anywhere between 500m and 4000m in the sky and set up multiple homes that way, but I cannot move below 500m or do anything at all on ground level. In fact, the ground level portion may as well not exist at all. It's forever unused.

So even though I "bought" the "plot," I'm limited to a certain range only in the sky, and it's hard for me to see how I actually own anything at all (I know I do not). I carry that same impression when I move back down to a normal plot on ground level (which comes with full sky access, terraforming, and banline capabilities). Also, I know that the estate owner can reclaim my land at any time (though they are extremely unlikely to unless they officially go out of business or start some major downscaling).

[Silent Mistwalker]

9 hours ago, Benka Ravenhurst said:

That is incorrect. Yes, you can RENT a parcel on a private estate, but you can also RENT land on the mainland too; it is actually very common. When you BUY land on the mainland you still have to pay to keep it. However, what disqualifies it as a rental is when you are the listed OWNER.

Take a rental car for example. How do you know you are renting a car? simple, you're name is not on the registration. I could buy a car via a loan, but again, just because the bank has a lien interest does not entail it is a rent situation.

How do you know you are renting land? Same thing, just look at the about land tab. Someone must ALWAYS own that land, there must always be a name on it, an estate owner is just the default owner when abandoned.

You completely missed Rowan's point. 

You can rent anywhere at any time from anyone however, you can only purchase to own from LL.  The "title" remains in the original purchaser's name when buying from a private estate. Private estates can consist of mainland.

Point blank, no one "owns" land in SL except for LL and even they don't own the server space anymore, they rent it.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker

[Liaa Nova]

16 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

You completely missed Rowan's point. 

You can rent anywhere at any time from anyone however, you can only purchase to own from LL.  The "title" remains in the original purchaser's name when buying from a private estate. Private estates can consist of mainland.

Point blank, no one "owns" land in SL except for LL and even they don't own the server space anymore, they rent it.

I agree with this (in bold). I rent from an estate, and while I can do a lot of things eg terraform, it can still all be taken away anytime by the estate owner, the one who owns it and pays linden lab. How could it be mine, if it can be taken anytime

[Solar Legion]

Oh for the love of ...

No.

Once again: If you are not paying directly to Linden Lab (Mainland Tier or Private Region (whole region) Maintenance Fee) then you do not own the parcel.

That is the reality. Deal with it.

[Benka Ravenhurst]

41 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

Oh for the love of ...

No.

Once again: If you are not paying directly to Linden Lab (Mainland Tier or Private Region (whole region) Maintenance Fee) then you do not own the parcel.

That is the reality. Deal with it.

Your interpreting ownership as if it were based on possession and it is not, it is based on accountability which is NOT a physical thing. in-world land is virtual; this is not to be contested; its existence is not an actual fact behind ownership based on Rules of Possession. 

 

So, when you buy land on the mainland, paying tier to the Lindens for it's upkeep, how is it that you FACTUALLY own that land? Answer: You ownership of the land is titled in your name by Linden Labs, not by possession but by accountability. Virtual land exists only in essence of accountability and not as an actual fact.

 

Landlord is a legal concept in that in the real world, the owner of the house rents it to another party, whilst remaining the titled owner of the property and the accountability that goes with it. In Second Life, a landlord still retains that accountability even though the land he or she owns has no physical truth; it all falls to accountability; who is responsible or the responsible party. There is no Hold Harmless in regards to how the service overall is used.

[Solar Legion]

That's nice.

Point blank for you: It does not matter how you attempt to interpret or twist the reality.

For a Private Estate, the Estate Owner owns the entire Region/Estate. They pay the region Maintenance Fee. as far as Linden Lab and actual reality are concerned, the one who pays that fee is the Owner - it is that simple.

Mainland requires the use of Rental Boxes due to the way in which that particular Parcel system functions. This does not negate the above.

Reality: If you are not paying Linden Lab directly, you are Renting. Period. Beginning and End.

You do not like, nor agree with such. Your personal opinion on the reality makes no difference whatsoever.

We are done here.

[Rowan Amore]

[Benka Ravenhurst]

5 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

That's nice.

Point blank for you: It does not matter how you attempt to interpret or twist the reality.

For a Private Estate, the Estate Owner owns the entire Region/Estate. They pay the region Maintenance Fee. as far as Linden Lab and actual reality are concerned, the one who pays that fee is the Owner - it is that simple.

Mainland requires the use of Rental Boxes due to the way in which that particular Parcel system functions. This does not negate the above.

Reality: If you are not paying Linden Lab directly, you are Renting. Period. Beginning and End.

You do not like, nor agree with such. Your personal opinion on the reality makes no difference whatsoever.

We are done here.

You are confusing estate ownership and land ownership; they are not one in the same. An estate owner is a governor with whom bare ultimate responsibility of what goes on within the domain of the estate, which can span hundreds of regions. Estate owners may dictate how the land is used, but they may also rent the estate to another party which makes that determination.