StarlanderGoods Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 19 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said: Theresa Tennyson murmurs, "Must have been quite the bet..." I have a different theory to challenge the "bet" theory. The OP has a conclusion, it doesnt matter if it´s right or wrong. This whole thread is them trying to validate their starting conclusion. There is really no other purpose to all of this. If they are proven wrong, they will latch onto language used, if the language used is correct they will answer with a confused analogy. They will wear everyone out until someone validates their conclusion, because they can´t walk it back, they have a stake on that conclusion, as wrong as it may be. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benka Ravenhurst Posted March 17, 2022 Author Share Posted March 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said: In real life, if you are a land owner, and you die, you no longer exist and you don't own land land. Either it becomes abandoned, as in SL, but God or Nature gets it, like Linden Lab. Or you pass it to your heirs with a will. But despite humankind's legality, Nature or God or Vladimir Putin can still take that land away from you; your land is not really "yours" in the ultimate sense. If LL defaults on their server bills to Amazon, then Amazon will seize their "land" and hence "our land". But to live in real life with common sense means not to heed all the hypotheticals and "whatabouts" and "whatifs" but to live "as if" you are an owner and use various laws and customs to manage this fictitious property. So in SL. Without getting too philosophical or hypothetical, the points you raise clearly sheds light on the ultimate truth that ownership is an invention of human fantasy, one that holds no real truth. Our ownership of anything is always provisional; and a truth that is provisionally true cannot be relied on as being true all the time. This is why I always say, "That which is provisionally true is never REAL truth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Which is exactly what I said. Getting back to the original question? As far as SL goes, we ALL rent if we have land. Some pay to LL and some pay to resident landlords. Period. Your parcel available on your private estate IS a rental. Period. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prokofy Neva Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Benka Ravenhurst said: When dealing with virtual land, the idea that you are selling anything apart from accountability only exists in fantasy land. The only reason why Linden Labs even choose to align virtual properties in this fashion is to mitigate the impact of their liabilities; not to divert them. This is where the Pyramid of Accountability comes into play, as it serves as the means of that mitigating factor. You aren't selling accountability except in some virtuous ideology; you are selling liability. Linden Lab mitigates their costs for servers by re-renting land to us. We help pay the bills. They pass along their liability to us, the way my RL landlord does. They pass along a realistic tier bill that still enables them to make a profit. But they could just as well pass along a huge cost as they once did for sims by creating the original auctions where they sold for US $1000 to $2000. And they can pass along this cost as a start-up just as my landlord passed along his horrendous Hurricane Sandy bills to Con Ed in the form of sudden $1000 and $3000 dollar per month rental bills. Since we resented being stuck with this enormous cost because we ourselves did not run the boiler room or re-start it after a fire, etc. nor did we get the affordances of ownership like being able to re-rent this property, various lawyers appealed it but to no avail. The fact is, a landlord can charge any electric bill or no electric bill to offset his own costs to the aptly named Con Ed. Con Ed will not come after you and haul you into housing court nor can your landlord because under NYC tenant law, you cannot be evicted for non-payment of an electric bill. To be sure, either Con Ed or your landlord can turn off the lights, but generally they don't, because the landlord pays a bulk Con Ed bill regardless, then portions it out to your rent. Many raise an eye at our outrageous electric bills of $350 a month even in the winter -- I've run offices of 10 employees with computers, adding machines, xerox machines etc that had less electric bills. But that's how our landlord offsets his costs, which included deadbeats not paying their electric bill every month. If Amazon is forced to stop and restart its servers or his hacked, LL will have to pass along the cost they may get from that -- or not. They now are going to collect state taxes whereas before they claim they "absorbed" them. I think it's more likely no one ever made them pay them, but as with the gatcha policy, some lawyer somewhere is trying to limit liability for this issue and wanted this policy instituted. And LL gets to do this. It's their land. Edited March 17, 2022 by Prokofy Neva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolig Loon Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 49 minutes ago, Benka Ravenhurst said: What folks here struggle with is the concept of accountability. "Accountability" isn't quite right. True, there is a practical distinction between having your own name in About Land and having the estate owner's name there. It gives you a little more flexibility in how you use the land, but ultimately you are still accountable to the estate owner. As an estate owner myself, I have many long-term residents on my estate. I have given them the option of having their own names on their parcels or leaving them in the name of my land group. Either way, they have a rent box on the parcel and they pay me a weekly rental. All but two of them have opted to have their own names on their parcels, so I have sold each of their parcels for L$0. The main reason for their choice is that having their own names on the parcels means that they can set their own preferences for who is allowed to rez objects or bring them into the parcel. Leaving the parcels in the name of my land group would mean that they could rez on each other's parcels and change their music streams. ( In a practical sense, this extra amount of flexibility doesn't make much difference to my tenants, because we are all friends and have known each other for most of the past 16 years. I do not allow anyone to erect ban lines or use security orbs below 300m, and we have a common understanding about what sort of building is in theme. If there is terraforming to be done, I do it or I trust them under very limited conditions. Therefore, although About Land says that they "own" the parcels, I still decide what they are allowed to do.) The bottom line is that I am responsible for paying Linden Lab, regardless of which choice my tenants make. We share the cost of maintaining the estate, and all agree that I set the tone for how it is used. If I had a vacant parcel and wished to advertise it, Linden Lab would consider that possibility a rental simply because from their point of view I am still the sole owner calling the shots about what goes on there. And that determines where I am allowed to post the notice of vacancy in the forums. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prokofy Neva Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Benka Ravenhurst said: Without getting too philosophical or hypothetical, the points you raise clearly sheds light on the ultimate truth that ownership is an invention of human fantasy, one that holds no real truth. Our ownership of anything is always provisional; and a truth that is provisionally true cannot be relied on as being true all the time. This is why I always say, "That which is provisionally true is never REAL truth. Just because all truths, or all truths about land at least are "provisional" doesn't mean you live as if they were provisional. That's what civilization is all about. That's what civil society is about. Artificial constructs that enable accountability and responsibility. That's what the rule of law is about; that's what common sense is about. These are not trivial achievements for the human race; they enable it to survive and even prosper at least in some places and enable people to work "for a better world". I'm not for thinking the thing to death so that accountability disappears, which is what you may wish to do in some Thiel like notion of cosmic engineering or humanism or whatever your particular tech ideology is here. It's good to pay bills. You pay the landlord or service provider for his costs, he gets to make a profit and justify his work; it's all good. I don't need it to be collectivized away like the Soviet Union or theorized away like the Internet, which has been the bane of human society. Edited March 17, 2022 by Prokofy Neva 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benka Ravenhurst Posted March 17, 2022 Author Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said: You aren't selling accountability except in some virtuous ideology; you are selling liability. Accountability reciprocates a liability, just as a duty to provide a service to me reciprocates an obligation for me to pay for it. Remember, land ownership is a gift that the Lindens installed in reciprocation of users taking on greater accountability. This system of reward serves to mitigate the overwhelming liability Linden Labs endures from how their services are used over the net. As I detailed out earlier, there is no Hold Harmless clause in its use, but the Pyramid of Accountability helps mitigate their liabilities. It is the sole basis of the existence land or estate ownership in Second Life. Edited March 17, 2022 by Benka Ravenhurst 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 16 minutes ago, StarlanderGoods said: I have a different theory to challenge the "bet" theory. The OP has a conclusion, it doesnt matter if it´s right or wrong. This whole thread is them trying to validate their starting conclusion. There is really no other purpose to all of this. If they are proven wrong, they will latch onto language used, if the language used is correct they will answer with a confused analogy. They will wear everyone out until someone validates their conclusion, because they can´t walk it back, they have a stake on that conclusion, as wrong as it may be. And as this goes on, it's become quite apparent this is the case. Guess we all have a hill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benka Ravenhurst Posted March 17, 2022 Author Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said: but ultimately you are still accountable to the estate owner. No, ultimate accountability is adherence to Linden Labs Terms of Service, irregardless of any agreements of accountability made with an estate owner. Remember, in the Pyramid of Accountability, Linden Labs is the ultimate foundation of how a service is to be used, applied and provided. Edited March 17, 2022 by Benka Ravenhurst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Mistwalker Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benka Ravenhurst Posted March 17, 2022 Author Share Posted March 17, 2022 6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said: And as this goes on, it's become quite apparent this is the case. Guess we all have a hill. I don't know who the 'WE' is; clearly you struggle. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Everyone has a hill they choose to die on. This would be yours. Wrong as it is. Do have a lovely day and I hope you are able to RENT the parcel you have on your private estate. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) 33 minutes ago, StarlanderGoods said: I have a different theory to challenge the "bet" theory. The OP has a conclusion, it doesnt matter if it´s right or wrong. This whole thread is them trying to validate their starting conclusion. There is really no other purpose to all of this. If they are proven wrong, they will latch onto language used, if the language used is correct they will answer with a confused analogy. They will wear everyone out until someone validates their conclusion, because they can´t walk it back, they have a stake on that conclusion, as wrong as it may be. The problem with that theory is it gives me night sweats. Before, this forum had One Of Those People in Britain and an equivalent One Of Those People in Australia, meaning that the earth's rotation would remain in balance. Now a third One Of Those People who also uses "whilst" suggests that the balance is off and possibly apocalyptic wobbling will occur. Edited March 17, 2022 by Theresa Tennyson 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarlanderGoods Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said: The problem with that theory is it gives me night sweats. Before, this forum had One Of Those People in Britain and an equivalent One Of Those People in Australia, meaning that the earth's rotation would remain in balance. Now a third using One Of Those Person who also uses "whilst" suggests that the balance is off and possibly apocalyptic wobbling will occur. Are you sure that "whilst" isnt a typo and they meant "wishlist" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prokofy Neva Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Benka Ravenhurst said: Accountability reciprocates a liability, just as a duty to provide a service to me reciprocates an obligation for me to pay for it. Remember, land ownership is a gift that the Lindens installed in reciprocation of users taking on greater accountability. This system of reward serves to mitigate the overwhelming liability Linden Labs endures from how their services are used over the net. As I detailed out earlier, there is no Hold Harmless clause in its use, but the Pyramid of Accountability helps mitigate their liabilities. It is the sole basis of the existence land or estate ownership in Second Life. IANL, but it seems to me the Lindens do not have "duty of care". We are not children requiring parental care. We are not young adults living in a dorm requiring adult supervision. We are not disabled or sick adults living in a home or hospital. We are people seeking entertainment. A movie house owner has a duty to follow fire regulations or food regulations to prevent burning or poisoning his patrons. But you can't be burned or poisoned online. This is why the Internet destroyed civilization; it removed the accountability and duties of care that goes with ownership normally. No game owner or Internet platform owner has ever been taken to court over his patrons committing terrorist acts and mass murder, although maybe they should, and we'd see less of them, but for what you would need new legislation that gets rid of Section 30 which removes liability from all these gangsters and which they invoke as a necessity claiming otherwise civil rights are violated. Nonsense. They shouldn't allow patrons to post pirated content and they should be held liable for abuses of copyright. Incitement of imminent action evolving from a 4chan web site may be much harder to prove in court, but I'm all for trying. A judge has already ruled that the TOS of Linden Lab, indeed of any game, is a contract of adhesion. But unlike my rental contract and rental insurance contract, I don't require my SL home for survival. Edited March 17, 2022 by Prokofy Neva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benka Ravenhurst Posted March 17, 2022 Author Share Posted March 17, 2022 1 hour ago, kali Wylder said: So, to recap: Rent is is the periodic payment paid to anyone other than Linden Lab for your land in SL. You may have rights (to terraform, to sublet, etc.) granted to you by the owner or you might not, depending on the agreement you make with them. Tier is the periodic payment paid to Linden Lab for land in SL. Somebody pays the tier to Linden Lab for any land in SL; if it's not you then you don't own it. No, rent is when you are a tenant to another party whose name appears on the land title. As long as the owner's name and your name are different, it qualifies as a rental as detailed in any dictionary. Tier is not a periodic payment; it's not a form of payment at all really. Tier, as properly scoped, is a degree of measure or level granted to you as apart of a bundle of benefits. What you are paying for is membership dues. That being said, Linden Labs also offers higher tier levels in return for more land. However, you need not pay that additional money to get it. For example, You can buy an annual membership for 99 dollars. With that, you can get up to 1024 meters of land free; no tier fee; no need to pay anything over the entire year. Interestingly, if you create multiple premium accounts, you can bundle their tier in a group, granting you 10 percent bonus tier as a result. Thus, if you have five premium annual accounts, you can obtain 5,632 meters of land for free. When you save the 300 per week stipend for each account, you can renew each account for another year for only 37 bucks per account. In that light, you can save a tremendous amount of money doing that way as opposed to buying additional tier for just one account. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
So Whimsy Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Real life =/= Second life. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 10 minutes ago, StarlanderGoods said: Are you sure that "whilst" isnt a typo and they meant "wishlist" ? No such luck. Those People tend to be very careful with their writing, even and especially when what they're writing is piffle. And they'll continue to do so even "whilst" we who cling to this planet are being flung into the terrible, terrible vacuum of space. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benka Ravenhurst Posted March 17, 2022 Author Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said: IANL, but it seems to me the Lindens do not have "duty of care". We are not children requiring parental care. We are not young adults living in a dorm requiring adult supervision. We are not disabled or sick adults living in a home or hospital. We are people seeking entertainment. A movie house owner has a duty to follow fire regulations or food regulations to prevent burning or poisoning his patrons. But you can't be burned or poisoned online. This is why the Internet destroyed civilization; it removed the accountability and duties of care that goes with ownership normally. No game owner or Internet platform owner has ever been taken to court over his patrons committing terrorist acts and mass murder, although maybe they should, and we'd see less of them, but for what you would need new legislation that gets rid of Section 30 which removes liability from all these gangsters and which they invoke as a necessity claiming otherwise civil rights are violated. Nonsense. They shouldn't allow patrons to post pirated content and they should be held liable for abuses of copyright. Incitement of imminent action evolving from a 4chan web site may be much harder to prove in court, but I'm all for trying. A judge has already ruled that the TOS of Linden Lab, indeed of any game, is a contract of adhesion. But unlike my rental contract and rental insurance contract, I don't require my SL home for survival. True, I would also add that when it comes to services provided on a voluntary basis of agreement, they would be the only means by which said service could be bound in duty to provide. Edited March 17, 2022 by Benka Ravenhurst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benka Ravenhurst Posted March 17, 2022 Author Share Posted March 17, 2022 25 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said: Everyone has a hill they choose to die on. This would be yours. Wrong as it is. Not everyone has the choices you suggest; whether you stay or go is up to you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowan Amore Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 50 minutes ago, Benka Ravenhurst said: No, rent is when you are a tenant to another party whose name appears on the land title. As long as the owner's name and your name are different, it qualifies as a rental as detailed in any dictionary. Tier is not a periodic payment; it's not a form of payment at all really. Tier, as properly scoped, is a degree of measure or level granted to you as apart of a bundle of benefits. What you are paying for is membership dues. That being said, Linden Labs also offers higher tier levels in return for more land. However, you need not pay that additional money to get it. For example, You can buy an annual membership for 99 dollars. With that, you can get up to 1024 meters of land free; no tier fee; no need to pay anything over the entire year. Interestingly, if you create multiple premium accounts, you can bundle their tier in a group, granting you 10 percent bonus tier as a result. Thus, if you have five premium annual accounts, you can obtain 5,632 meters of land for free. When you save the 300 per week stipend for each account, you can renew each account for another year for only 37 bucks per account. In that light, you can save a tremendous amount of money doing that way as opposed to buying additional tier for just one account. Good to see you've read the knowledge base as I suggested as you didn't seem to understand what tier was before. Progress! 14 hours ago, Benka Ravenhurst said: Often when you look at some land sale boards, many will tell you what the tier costs are in owning land on a private estate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mollymews Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 2 hours ago, Benka Ravenhurst said: Without getting too philosophical or hypothetical, the points you raise clearly sheds light on the ultimate truth that ownership is an invention of human fantasy, one that holds no real truth. Our ownership of anything is always provisional; and a truth that is provisionally true cannot be relied on as being true all the time. This is why I always say, "That which is provisionally true is never REAL truth. if we are going way down the rabbit hole of reductio ad absurdum then the 'real' truth is that human beings only 'own' land while human beings exist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annie Nova Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaylinbridges Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 I think the OP flunked the real estate exam, and needs to look for another line of work. I can safely say I have learned absolutely nothing by reading this thread! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted March 18, 2022 Share Posted March 18, 2022 17 hours ago, Benka Ravenhurst said: That is what this post is for, if people think I am wrong then they are free to post a demonstration of that rather than just saying 'nope'. Demonstration: 1) Go to Falkreath, the region in question. 2) Stand on or near the land that you are thinking of "Buying." 3) Note that the vendor will tell you to: "~ Rent this land: On the top menu [World] → [Buy this Land]! The purchase price includes 7 rental days." 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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