What is rent?

[Silent Mistwalker]

5 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

The problem with that theory is it gives me night sweats. Before, this forum had One Of Those People in Britain and an equivalent One Of Those People in Australia, meaning that the earth's rotation would remain in balance. Now a third One Of Those People who also uses "whilst" suggests that the balance is off and possibly apocalyptic wobbling will occur.

Shall we have a game of Whist whilst we wait? Good! Now, whist while I deal the cards. 🤭

[Orwar]

   This is Rent. Well, a part of Rent, anyway.

 

[Benka Ravenhurst]

11 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

Getting back to the original question?  As far as SL goes, we ALL rent if we have land.  Some pay to LL and some pay to resident landlords.  Period.  

To say that we all 'rent' in every situation would be inaccurate and confusing. This is because there are some lots where you have to pay to join a group to live on while others you buy it outright.

There are role-playing regions similar to mine where a developed parcel with a home can only be rented to live in so as to preserve the expensive landscaping.

On my role-play regions, I have some parcels complete with home and landscaping that are for sale. Although many objects I use in decor are not transferable in a physical sense, they don't really need to be when I make myself available to share their usage.

In this situation, using the word 'rent' to describe how that parcel of land is being made available to the public would most certainly be misleading. No, I am selling that land with the option to either keep existing structures, or delete everything and build your own thing. Many community role-play sims don't do this as it is time consuming to rebuild what was deleted when someone stays for only a week or two.

To rent is to be a tenant on land that does not have your name as the owner; this is clear; this is concise; this is what people will understand when they see that word being used on a sign posted on a rebuilt landscaped home.

As far as Second Life goes as you say, I see quite clearly that whether on the mainland or on a private island, if I buy a lot and it has my name on the title of that land, I am the owner of that parcel of land; I'm not renting it.  

Edited March 18, 2022 by Benka Ravenhurst

[Theresa Tennyson]

2 hours ago, Benka Ravenhurst said:

As far as Second Life goes as you say, I see quite clearly that whether on the mainland or on a private island, if I buy a lot and it has my name on the title of that land, I am the owner of that parcel of land; I'm not renting it.  

Then why does it say that you are on the island you're running?

[Pamela Galli]

4 hours ago, Benka Ravenhurst said:

As far as Second Life goes as you say, I see quite clearly that whether on the mainland or on a private island, if I buy a lot and it has my name on the title of that land, I am the owner of that parcel of land; I'm not renting it.  

Peculiar that nobody including LL agrees with you.

But forge ahead clinging to your belief anyway.

[StarlanderGoods]

How about that movie, Rent, anyone seen it?

[Benka Ravenhurst]

4 hours ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Then why does it say that you are on the island you're running?

If you look at the estate manager on the mainland you will see 'Governor Linden' as the name. Governor is a political title in real life, but in Second Life it's not an elected position obviously, yet it does bring into that world a meaning, one that reflects a task of responsibility of oversight; of managing a domain.

 

Governors in real life need not own the lands they govern obviously for they are not kings, otherwise it would say 'King Linden' or 'Lord Linden'.

 

To govern is to restrain and to control, that is the legal definition found in any law dictionary.  In Second Life, such a domain power can bring great rewards of profit and, like a carrot on a stick, encourages proper adherence to the Terms of Service.

 

This is why an estate owner is not the same title as a land owner, even though they are the default land custodians as you will, when such lands within that domain remain either unoccupied or get abandoned or reclaimed.

 

Reclaim is another term that is used that needs expansion. When land is purchased, the buyer is essentially making a claim ( "demand of ownership made for something." ), in exchange for payment as well as acknowledgement of what the buyer is doing when clicking on that accept button.

 

This is different in a rental situation as the renter neither makes such claim, nor does the property itself require reclaiming by the estate should the tenant be evicted.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Benka Ravenhurst

[Silent Mistwalker]

7 hours ago, Benka Ravenhurst said:

To say that we all 'rent' in every situation would be inaccurate and confusing. This is because there are some lots where you have to pay to join a group to live on while others you buy it outright.

There are role-playing regions similar to mine where a developed parcel with a home can only be rented to live in so as to preserve the expensive landscaping.

On my role-play regions, I have some parcels complete with home and landscaping that are for sale. Although many objects I use in decor are not transferable in a physical sense, they don't really need to be when I make myself available to share their usage.

In this situation, using the word 'rent' to describe how that parcel of land is being made available to the public would most certainly be misleading. No, I am selling that land with the option to either keep existing structures, or delete everything and build your own thing. Many community role-play sims don't do this as it is time consuming to rebuild what was deleted when someone stays for only a week or two.

To rent is to be a tenant on land that does not have your name as the owner; this is clear; this is concise; this is what people will understand when they see that word being used on a sign posted on a rebuilt landscaped home.

As far as Second Life goes as you say, I see quite clearly that whether on the mainland or on a private island, if I buy a lot and it has my name on the title of that land, I am the owner of that parcel of land; I'm not renting it.  

You aren't winning any brownie points with all the wool pulling you're doing. And you certainly aren't fooling anyone but yourself with your gaslighting. It really isn't shameful to be wrong and to be able to admit to being wrong. If you are not paying/buying for the land directly to Linden Lab, you do NOT own the land. You are renting the land.

When you buy land you pay money to buy it first, and then you also pay a monthly fee (usually called "tier") to Linden Lab (if you're on the mainland) or the estate owner (if you're on a private estate). When you rent land, you don't pay money to buy it, but you do pay a monthly fee for each month you're renting it. The rental fee is paid to the owner of the property, and when you rent on the mainland, you are not required to pay tier fees to Linden Lab (as you don’t actually own the land).

The important things to note here are :

Buying land is cheaper in the long term than renting land, but does require you to pay a lot more up front.

If you are buying land, always check if you will get your money back when you move out (like a deposit) or if you have to re-sell the land to someone else to get back the money you paid for it. On Estate Land, make sure that re-selling the land is permitted.

If you are renting land, always check how long you can keep renting it for. Sometimes, rentals are for fixed periods, and sometimes they will keep on billing you until you cancel the agreement. Also, make sure you read the fine print on the rental agreements concerning when payments are due – sometimes being even slightly late can mean losing your property.

If you are on a private estate, you need to know who the estate owner is, because this person is responsible for looking after you and collecting money from you. To find this out, right click the land, select "about land", go to the "Covenant" tab, and look at the name next to "Estate Owner".

When you buy Mainland property, the property is yours and you are responsible for paying the monthly tier fees to Linden Lab. Mainland property has no covenants, which means you can build or do anything with that land as long as it is within the TOS guidelines and conforms to the region's rating.

All in all, I would suggest that buying is better than renting, so long as : A) you trust the person you're buying from. B) you trust the estate owner the parcel is on, and have confirmed with them that the sale is OK. C) you plan to be there for a long time, AND you are ok with having that money tied up in SL until you resell the parcel later. D) you can really afford the up-front cost of buying the land. If A or B above is not true, find a different place with sellers / estate owners you trust. If C or D above is not true, I would suggest that you rent instead.

Now you can acknowledge your mistake, learn from it and let the topic go.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Silent Mistwalker

[Benka Ravenhurst]

2 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

If you are not paying/buying for the land directly to Linden Lab, you do NOT own the land. You are renting the land.

Where you get this idea is from is a segment of the data base that was NOT INTENDED to define ownership, but rather to provide an example as to how one can know whether or not a residence's tier factor is being applied. Tier factor only applies to most (not all) Linden owned regions and, as I indicated in other posts, you don't always need to pay for tier as that comes bundled with the premium membership.

 

Tier is not a payment; it is not a form of payment; it is not a cost; it is a level of allowed volume of land. I discover that the word itself is misused often, especially on professional land sale signs.

 

Easytech is one such common professional system, where it would often use the term 'Tier Fee' to denote a recurring cost of owning that parcel. 'Rent' is another word that is loosely used even in the database; not saying that it is incorrectly used, but it can be easily misleading when you try to define ownership in a section not intended for that purpose. 

 

As far as a covenants are concerned, many mainland regions use the Terms of Service behavior agreement as it's default covenant. So, to argue that they do not have one is factually incorrect; and some regions of Linden areas do indeed have additional restrictions placed on residences behavior or land use which can be found in that section.

 

[Silent Mistwalker]

1 minute ago, Benka Ravenhurst said:

Where you get this idea is from is a segment of the data base that was NOT INTENDED to define ownership, but rather to provide an example as to how one can know whether or not a residence's tier factor is being applied. Tier factor only applies to most (not all) Linden owned regions and, as I indicated in other posts, you don't always need to pay for tier as that comes bundled with the premium membership.

 

Tier is not a payment; it is not a form of payment; it is not a cost; it is a level of allowed volume of land. I discover that the word itself is misused often, especially on professional land sale signs.

 

Easytech is one such common professional system, where it would often use the term 'Tier Fee' to denote a recurring cost of owning that parcel. 'Rent' is another word that is loosely used even in the database; not saying that it is incorrectly used, but it can be easily misleading when you try to define ownership in a section not intended for that purpose. 

 

As far as a covenants are concerned, many mainland regions use the Terms of Service behavior agreement as it's default covenant. So, to argue that they do not have one is factually incorrect; and some regions of Linden areas do indeed have additional restrictions placed on residences behavior or land use which can be found in that section.

 

Where did I get the information? Straight from Linden Lab. Which you would be wise to do yourself so you can stop spreading misinformation as it pertains to Second Life. 

[Sid Nagy]

A lot of technical back and forth in this thread.
IMHO where it all boils down to:
If you want to use land, you have to pay for it on a regular basis, either to LL or a landlord. If you forget that, the land is taken from you again.
The bigger the land, the more you pay.
There is not very much more to it really.  You have to pay your bills in time.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Sid Nagy

[Rowan Amore]

Let me try to explain this in a way you MIGHT understand since you like RL analogies.

I purchase a piece of land (remember, this is in RL).  I take on a mortgage from the bank.  I am the only one on the mortgage.  I must pay the bank every month.

Translation to SL...I order a private estate from LL.  I am the land owner.  I am the only one LL deals with in regards to any payment on that land.  Basically, the legal owner.

Back to RL...I decide to rent that entire plot of land to you.  We agree on a price.  You pay me weekly.  I can either put up a home for you or you can put up your own.  You can now put the utilities in your name, put that address on your drivers license, use that address for anything basically.  You still don't own it.  The bank (LL in SL term) doesn't care who you are or if you're paying me on time or not.  All they care about if whether I pay them.

Are you with me so far?   You've rented from me, the owner.

Now, you decide to put up 6 little shacks and let your friends live there.  Of course, you charge them to rent those shacks and the plot of land around them.  They can plant flowers, use that address for mail, etc.  If they don't pay you, the ESTATE owner (me) doesn't care.  I only care if you pay me.  The BANK (LL) doesn't care if you pay me.  The one and only person accountable for that plot of land (the mortgage) is ME.  

No one cares that you're paying me or your tenants are paying you.  In the banks eyes (LL), anyone but me is a tenant.  A renter.  

TENANT DEFINITION

[ˈtenənt]

NOUN

a person who occupies land or property rented from a landlord.

 

Mainland is different.  I buy the land directly from LL (the bank).  I can either pay them monthly, quarterly or yearly (premium membership) plus monthly if over my 1024 free tier.  If I want to RENT the land to another, they pay a rental.box.  The DO NOT ' buy' the land because then, they would actually be buying the land.  

Have you ever purchased mainland?  Do you know how renting on the main land actually work?  Do you know how any of this actually work?

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

1 hour ago, Benka Ravenhurst said:

If you look at the estate manager on the mainland you will see 'Governor Linden' as the name. Governor is a political title in real life, but in Second Life it's not an elected position obviously, yet it does bring into that world a meaning, one that reflects a task of responsibility of oversight; of managing a domain.

 

Governors in real life need not own the lands they govern obviously for they are not kings, otherwise it would say 'King Linden' or 'Lord Linden'.

 

To govern is to restrain and to control, that is the legal definition found in any law dictionary.  In Second Life, such a domain power can bring great rewards of profit and, like a carrot on a stick, encourages proper adherence to the Terms of Service.

 

This is why an estate owner is not the same title as a land owner, even though they are the default land custodians as you will, when such lands within that domain remain either unoccupied or get abandoned or reclaimed.

 

Reclaim is another term that is used that needs expansion. When land is purchased, the buyer is essentially making a claim ( "demand of ownership made for something." ), in exchange for payment as well as acknowledgement of what the buyer is doing when clicking on that accept button.

 

This is different in a rental situation as the renter neither makes such claim, nor does the property itself require reclaiming by the estate should the tenant be evicted.

How does any of that address the fact that:

1) You said that when you "buy" a lot in a private region you're not "renting" it

AND

2) The region that you are "selling" land on says that you ARE "renting" it?

Edited March 18, 2022 by Theresa Tennyson

[Benka Ravenhurst]

Just now, Silent Mistwalker said:

Where did I get the information? Straight from Linden Lab. Which you would be wise to do yourself so you can stop spreading misinformation as it pertains to Second Life. 

I am not suggesting that you do not obtain your understanding of what you read and from hear, but when I am faced with nothing but claims that I am wrong as if speaking on authority with case closed and nothing else, I am being more convinced that what you say is simply that - gaslighting.

[Theresa Tennyson]

Just now, Benka Ravenhurst said:

I am not suggesting that you do not obtain your understanding of what you read and from hear, but when I am faced with nothing but claims that I am wrong as if speaking on authority with case closed and nothing else, I am being more convinced that what you say is simply that - gaslighting.

You mean "gaslighting" like when someone completely ignores the demonstrable fact that the way they run their own property contradicts what they say about how property works?

[Rowan Amore]

On 3/17/2022 at 12:06 AM, Benka Ravenhurst said:

In the context of the game, to rent means that you are a tenant to the owner; you can discover this fact in any dictionary. If I buy land, either on the mainland or on a private island, then that would disqualify me as a renter because my NAME is right there on the TITLE of said land in the about land tab.

 

 

Contradictory?  Seems so.  Again, buying mainland is different.

18 hours ago, Benka Ravenhurst said:

No, rent is when you are a tenant to another party whose name appears on the land title. As long as the owner's name and your name are different, it qualifies as a rental as detailed in any dictionary.

 

The true OWNER of the land is in the ESTATE window not the about land tab.  If the ESTATE owner is different than yours, you are renting.  Why are you not grasping this when so many have tried to explain?   On a private estate, if I rent a parcel from you, my name on the about land tab is basically my name on the LEASE.  

[Benka Ravenhurst]

16 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

1) You said that when you "buy" a lot in a private region you're not "renting" it

AND

2) The region that you are "selling" land on says that you ARE "renting" it?

You can not rent land via the system, you can only deed the land to a group and set parameters to mimic a rental.

 

When you place a lot for sale, the system address what you are doing with no mention that you are renting anything; using clear and concise language of what you are doing.

 

As Rowan correctly illustrated, tier is often associated with a payment which is not the factual usage of that word. Rent, another word often incorrectly used to denote a land sale, is another My purpose here is to simply straighten that out.

Edited March 18, 2022 by Benka Ravenhurst

[Lindal Kidd]

What the OP, with her armor-plated ego, fails to recognize is that not only has everyone here said that she is wrong, LINDEN LAB itself has said that she is wrong, and Linden Lab is the Final Authority around here.

She's in the position of Milton's Lucifer; her pride prevents her from admitting her error.

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Benka Ravenhurst said:

You can not rent land via the system, you can only deed the land to a group and set parameters to mimic a rental.

 

When you place a lot for sale, the system address what you are doing with no mention that you are renting anything; using clear and concise language of what you are doing.

 

As Rowan correctly illustrated, tier is often associated with a payment which is not the factual usage of that word. Rent is another word which is likewise incorrectly in some cases to denote a land sale. My purpose here is to simply straighten that out.

So...let me get this straight.  EVERYONE says you are mistaken yet your.purpose is to straighten us all out.  Good luck with that.

[Benka Ravenhurst]

1 minute ago, Lindal Kidd said:

What the OP, with her armor-plated ego, fails to recognize is that not only has everyone here said that she is wrong, LINDEN LAB itself has said that she is wrong, and Linden Lab is the Final Authority around here.

She's in the position of Milton's Lucifer; her pride prevents her from admitting her error.

I understand the sentiment.

[Rowan Amore]

1 minute ago, Benka Ravenhurst said:

I understand the sentiment.

@Lindal Kiddtaught classes on buying/renting land in SL.  Just so you know.

[Benka Ravenhurst]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

So...let me get this straight.  EVERYONE says you are mistaken yet your.purpose is to straighten us all out.  Good luck with that.

See, the way it works is that we have conversation on the subject rather than just making authoritative claims. Even Linden Lab employee's sometimes get things wrong and make mistakes. Thus, I just do not accept matter of fact claims of authority, albeit written or spoken.

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

4 minutes ago, Benka Ravenhurst said:

You can not rent land via the system, you can only deed the land to a group and set parameters to mimic a rental.

 

You mean "mimic a rental" by having people pay rent? Isn't that like when someone "mimics a corpse" by being dead?

[Rowan Amore]

3 minutes ago, Benka Ravenhurst said:

See, the way it works is that we have conversation on the subject rather than just making authoritative claims. Even Linden Lab employee's sometimes get things wrong and make mistakes. Thus, I just do not accept matter of fact claims of authority, albeit written or spoken.

 

So now LL is wrong?  Alrighty then.

I think it might be kitty pic time!

[Kathlen Onyx]

13 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

So...let me get this straight.  EVERYONE says you are mistaken yet your.purpose is to straighten us all out.  Good luck with that.