What is rent?

[Benka Ravenhurst]

In the context of the game, to rent means that you are a tenant to the owner; you can discover this fact in any dictionary. If I buy land, either on the mainland or on a private island, then that would disqualify me as a renter because my NAME is right there on the TITLE of said land in the about land tab.

I think it's silly when certain people 'think' that an estate owner and land owner are one in the same; this is not true. Owning the estate doesn't mean you're always the land owner. For example, you can rent an island estate from the owner that grants you estate powers in return for money, then turn around and literately SELL all the land on that estate. Just because the estate is being rented does NOT always mean that the land is likewise being rented.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

I suppose this is true, but, insofar as your "purchase" of land on an estate is a deal solely between you and the estate owner, and has nothing to do with Linden Lab, your status as "owner" is a bit different than that of someone who buys land on mainland. In the latter case, LL is directly involved through tier, and has mechanisms in place to secure your "ownership" of that land for so long as you are paying tier.

It seems to me that "buying" land from an estate is less secure, because the estate owner can eject you if they are unscrupulous, fraudulent, or you've given them good cause?

I may be wrong about this, though? What am I missing?

I'm also not sure why you think the semantics of the distinction are important?

[Rowan Amore]

 

 

[Rowan Amore]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

In the latter case, LL is directly involved through tier, and has mechanisms in place to secure your "ownership" of that land for so long as you are paying tier.

You are actually either paying for premium and getting your 1024 free tier or owning more than that and paying Land Use Fees directly to LL.   

Tier is connected to but not the same as land use fees. You pay land use fees for tier. Tier is not a currency like Linden dollars. This is especially important for new landowners to understand, as some experienced Residents use the term inaccurately. It's accurate to say "I pay for tier," or "I pay tier fees," but not "I pay tier."

[Scylla Rhiadra]

5 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

You are actually either paying for premium and getting your 1024 free tier or owning more than that and paying Land Use Fees directly to LL.   

Tier is connected to but not the same as land use fees. You pay land use fees for tier. Tier is not a currency like Linden dollars. This is especially important for new landowners to understand, as some experienced Residents use the term inaccurately. It's accurate to say "I pay for tier," or "I pay tier fees," but not "I pay tier."

True! So, I suppose, arguably, your "ownership" is valid for only so long as you are paying Premium and/or paying for extra tier.

And of course, in the broader sense, we are all temporary occupants here. LL could pull the plug at any time, and what we "own" would go poof.

[Rowan Amore]

The only land actually owned in the true sense of the word is either mainland or a private estate or homestead purchased directly from LL.  Any other 'purchase' is actually a rental.

Check the Estate tab and not the about land tab to find the actual owner of a private estate.

[Silent Mistwalker]

2 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The only land actually owned in the true sense of the word is either mainland or a private estate or homestead purchased directly from LL.  Any other 'purchase' is actually a rental.

Check the Estate tab and not the about land tab to find the actual owner of a private estate.

You beat me to it.

[Kalegthepsionicist]

own  property from my perception
is ability to transfer it, sell it, give away.

[Benka Ravenhurst]

39 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

and the estate owner, and has nothing to do with Linden Lab

That is incorrect as you MUST agree with LL TOS on purchase of land wheather on mainland or Private estate. Estate owners may add or be more restrictive in terms of LL rules, but what is not allowed as far as your conduct cannot be lifted on a private estate. 

[Lindal Kidd]

There are 5 ways to...let's call it "have"...land in Second Life. In one sense, all of them are forms of renting...because even if the land shows as being in your name, you can be evicted from it by the estate owner and/or Linden Lab themselves. But because each scheme for "having" land has different rules and different pros and cons, we need different terms to refer to them. Here are the 5 ways to have land:

1. Squatting. In this method, you do a lot of looking around at vacant parcels of Mainland until you find one that is owned by a resident, but shows no signs of said resident having done anything with it for a long time, and that ALSO has the land set to allow anyone to create objects. Then just move right in!
   1. Pros: It's free!
   2. Cons: Sooner or later the real owner is liable to discover you, or decide to sell their land. Either way, you and your Stuff get kicked off. You may be Abuse Reported too, although I don't think LL will sanction you. Also, you can't change the land settings or ban trespassers.
2.  Rent Mainland. Here, you pay a landlord a fee in $L, weekly or monthly, for a Mainland parcel.
   1. Pros: Doesn't require a Premium membership. You generally have control over most land options (but be sure to check that with the landlord before paying them rent.) It's easy to leave if you want to move. Usually you are only out a few days' rent. While it's polite to give notice, you can simply pack up and leave in the night if you want. You have a lot of choice. Many landlords rent bare land, but others will provide you with a free house or apartment, pre-built and ready for your furnishings.
   2. Cons: You're dealing with another resident. They may decide to sell their land, or leave SL, or turn the place into an airport, or maybe they just get up on the wrong side of bed one morning and kick you off. You probably won't have control of some of the land settings, like terraforming, allow flight/scripts/voice, or ban trespassers.
3. Own Mainland. In this method, you either take advantage of your Premium benefits and get a Linden Home, or you buy a Mainland parcel from its current owner.
   1. Pros: A Linden Home is the cheapest way to have land in SL. If you subtract the $USD value of the weekly $L300 stipend, a Premium account only costs you about $30.67 per year (that's about $L150 per week, if you want to compare it to a 1024 rental parcel's price).  You also have control of most of the land's settings and options (although Linden Homes do have some restrictions). You can own up to 1,024 square meters without paying a monthly land fee, but if you want more land, you may certainly do so. Because you are paying LL directly, this is the "safest" way to have land...you are unlikely to be kicked off unless LL decides to shut down SL entirely. You're listed in the parcel description as the land "owner", if that's important to you.
   2. Cons: Land can be hard to sell, when you want to get rid of it. Many people wind up Abandoning it and taking a loss. Since this method only applies to Mainland, you are subject to neighbors of whose taste you don't approve. A Premium membership is required.
4. Own a Private Region. As with Mainland, you pay LL directly for a region. However, you don't need to have a Premium membership. You can own many regions, and defray the costs by "renting" out parcels on them to others.
   1. Pros: A very safe method, since you're dealing directly with LL. However, LL is more likely to change the pricing and other terms on estate owners than they are on Mainland. You can plonk your region down almost anywhere on the grid (but be sure to research that "almost", there are some tricky rules.) You have the most control of the land, being able to apply terrain RAW files to sculpt it, and your own ground textures, plus you have more choices about managing access to your land. Once you own one "full performance" region, you can buy Homestead regions to add to your land empire. You're listed as the land's "owner" unless you "sell" (lease, see below) it to another resident and collect payments from them.
   2. Cons: This is very expensive, compared to owning a dinky little 1024 parcel, and you aren't guaranteed enough tenants to break even, let alone profit. If you do make a profit, you have to worry about taxes on it.
5. Lease Land on a Private Estate. I'm the only person I know of that uses the term "leasing" for this method. I know it's not really comparable to a Real Life lease, but like the OP, I wanted a way to distinguish between "renting" Mainland and "renting" a Private Estate parcel. In both cases, you're paying money to another resident, either weekly or monthly, but on a private estate, you will usually be able to get the parcel in your name, or your group's name, as if you "owned" it.
   1. Pros: Estate living can be much less affected by griefers and by neighbors with terrible taste. If there are problems, a good estate owner or their manager can often respond quicker than LL will respond to a support ticket.
   2. Cons: Your landlord can evict you at any time, and for any reason. Note that there may be more than just 2 layers of ownership; you might pay your "estate owner", but they in turn may be paying an even bigger land baron, who is then in turn paying LL. You will not generally see these "people behind the curtain" unless your landlord falls behind in their payments.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Lindal Kidd

[Benka Ravenhurst]

29 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

The only land actually owned in the true sense of the word is either mainland or a private estate or homestead purchased directly from LL.  Any other 'purchase' is actually a rental.

Check the Estate tab and not the about land tab to find the actual owner of a private estate

That is incorrect. Yes, you can RENT a parcel on a private estate, but you can also RENT land on the mainland too; it is actually very common. When you BUY land on the mainland you still have to pay to keep it. However, what disqualifies it as a rental is when you are the listed OWNER.

Take a rental car for example. How do you know you are renting a car? simple, you're name is not on the registration. I could buy a car via a loan, but again, just because the bank has a lien interest does not entail it is a rent situation.

How do you know you are renting land? Same thing, just look at the about land tab. Someone must ALWAYS own that land, there must always be a name on it, an estate owner is just the default owner when abandoned.

[Polenth Yue]

I'm seconding the question about why fine distinctions in what the word means is important. Did something happen?

[Benka Ravenhurst]

3 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Lease Land on a Private Estate. I'm the only person I know of that uses the term "leasing" for this method. I know it's not really comparable to a Real Life lease, but like the OP, I wanted a way to distinguish between "renting" Mainland and "renting" a Private Estate parcel. In both cases, you're paying money to another resident, either weekly or monthly, but on a private estate, you will usually be able to get the parcel in your name, or your group's name, as if you "owned" it.

Lease is not an in-world application but a TOS truth. In reality, usage of service is a lease agreement in that Linden Labs may, at anytime and without any reason, terminate that service. It also implies that Linden Labs holds ultimate ownership of all in-world created content, and thus is the one and only true owner of that content, including the land. In that regard, nobody factually owns anything and the idea you own mainland is nonsense.

 

 

 

[Rowan Amore]

13 minutes ago, Benka Ravenhurst said:

Yes, you can RENT a parcel on a private estate, but you can also RENT land on the mainland too

That is correct.  But the only way you can OWN land in SL is buying mainland which you can only do as a premium member or buying a region directly from LL.   Everything else is paying rent to the actual owner of the mainland or private estate.

I think where you're misunderstanding is when I go to a private estate that has land for 'sale' I click on the land and buy.  I'm not actually buying it.  I'm placing a hold on it until an agreement is set with the Estate owner or the person Renting from the estate owner.  The purchase price is either first week rent or 1L.  We then agree on a weekly amount of RENT.

Mainland rentals are a bit different. 

Renting land on the mainland?

You may have heard that some Residents offer land for rent on the mainland, which works differently in some regards. One big difference is that you don't do the act of buying a parcel (which shows you as the parcel owner in ABOUT LAND - GENERAL as described above). instead, you might be offered to join a group which gives you the permission to place objects on a designated parcel with your group tag.

[Lindal Kidd]

Just now, Benka Ravenhurst said:

Lease is not an in-world application but a TOS truth. In reality, usage of service is a lease agreement in that Linden Labs may, at anytime and without any reason, terminate that service. It also implies that Linden Labs holds ultimate ownership of all in-world created content, and thus is the one and only true owner of that content, including the land. In that regard, nobody factually owns anything and the idea you own mainland is nonsense.

I believe I said that, yes.

[Benka Ravenhurst]

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

  I'm not actually buying it.

You're not actually buying it?! My dear, when you click that button to buy you have an extra step, it's called an agreement. Once you click that you just bought that land. This idea that a  'hold' is being placed on it exists only in your head. Sure, as an estate owner, I can place a 'hold' on a parcel of land in that only you can buy it, but that is the extent of the concept.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Benka Ravenhurst

[Rowan Amore]

Nope

 

[Rowan Amore]

Risks of private region rentals

Residents buying or renting parcels on Private Regions and Estates are subject to the covenant that governs the land they're renting. If you rent land that's in a Private Region, you're not paying Linden Lab -- you're paying the Estate owner. The way in which the Estate owner sets up payments and what they charge is entirely up to them.

⚠️

Please understand that by renting from another Resident, you run the risk that this Resident may decide to leave Second Life, without refunding anything you may have paid them. Linden Lab is not party to any agreement the two of you may have, however, if you wish to pursue this matter outside of Second Life, please know that Linden Lab cooperates fully with any real-world justice officials or law enforcement agencies credentialed with appropriate civil or criminal jurisdiction.

[Lindal Kidd]

OP: What is rent?

Pedant: The past tense of the verb "to rend", as in, "She rent her garment in frustration".

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

Please understand that by renting from another Resident, you run the risk that this Resident may decide to leave Second Life, without refunding anything you may have paid them. Linden Lab is not party to any agreement the two of you may have, however, if you wish to pursue this matter outside of Second Life, please know that Linden Lab cooperates fully with any real-world justice officials or law enforcement agencies credentialed with appropriate civil or criminal jurisdiction.

Exactly. Thank you Rowan; this is what I was getting at.

You can hardly be said to "own" land that the estate owner can remove you from at any time, for any reason, without direct recourse to LL for remedy.

[Benka Ravenhurst]

1 minute ago, Rowan Amore said:

Residents buying or renting parcels on Private Regions and Estates are subject to the covenant that governs the land they're renting. If you rent land that's in a Private Region, you're not paying Linden Lab -- you're paying the Estate owner. The way in which the Estate owner sets up payments and what they charge is entirely up to them.

That is NOT the entirety of it because not all estate owners receive money from folks renting or paying upkeep for land on an estate. Covenants are not solely for private estates because even regions on the mainland have covenants set up by the estate owner, Governor Linden.

If you rent land on a private island you are not paying Linden Lab directly, just as you are not paying Linden Lab directly when you rent on a mainland. This snip is not intended to define scope, only to provide an understanding of who you are paying.

[Rowan Amore]

 

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Exactly. Thank you Rowan; this is what I was getting at.

You can hardly be said to "own" land that the estate owner can remove you from at any time, for any reason, without direct recourse to LL for remedy.

And if your are paying the estate owner or mainland owner weekly, it's rent.

[purrrkitten]

What inspired this?

[Benka Ravenhurst]

9 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 

You can hardly be said to "own" land that the estate owner can remove you from at any time, for any reason, without direct recourse to LL for remedy

As I indicated earlier, Linden Labs reserves the right to reclaim your land or terminate your service for ANY reason; It's right there in the TOS. By that account of your perception, you don't own anything and the word itself looses all its meaning.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Benka Ravenhurst

[Coffee Pancake]

You do realize landlording has been a core part of the SL ecosystem since the start, none of this is new or even exciting.

The only land you own is the land you pay Linden Lab for directly and only in so far as you keep paying the bill.

All other land is rented from a resident and it's that residents problem to keep the Lab happy, even in the case of owning land on someone else's private region where ownership is a mere technicality and the region owner can reclaim it for no rhyme or reason at all.

 

As to the point that LL can come and take back the land you "own" and are paying for directly, yes, technically they can do that. In much the same way the state can eminent domain all the stuff you think you own IRL. But at that point it's becomes a pointless distinction and the domain of lawyers, both in SL and RL.

Why are we here?