If people want privacy so bad they put up ban lines...

[Alwin Alcott]

10 hours ago, NanashiNyx said:

The point is there are real privacy options available in Second Life, but they cost more, if you *need* privacy (and can't set it to skyboxes that don't affect everyone around you) it's likely better to work toward having one of those.

The point is, for You this opinion is valid, for many Others it isn't. There is no rule, and no intent by LL for that, and if you didn't know, during the building of SL, private regions were later than the mainland ánd it's purpose.
A majority of people is like you, unable to bring/or want to bring, funds to own private regions. A majority owns mainlan, or rents mainland, or rents on private owned regions.

A lot of people do like their privacy here, for any possible reason, or no reason at all, and i, you, we have nothing to say about it, because it's possible, and allowed do so by Estate owners, and guidelines and TOS. The only exception is Belliseria, with it's own covenant ;  it might be a idea to give up your quarter region, and move to there?  no banlines allowed and all public roads/paths.

 

21 hours ago, NanashiNyx said:

Let's just agree we think the other is a terrible person and move on, no?

i'm not in that stage yet
 

5 hours ago, NanashiNyx said:

Though, with how much you ramble about access and inclusivity on the forums, I *hope* you're not actually that much of a blatant hypocrite 

if you get in a discussion without the least interest what others bring in, and only rule by your own judgement, your choice is to make the forum exclusive for own opinions.
That last line works two sides.

[Setsuki Takeda]

36 minutes ago, Alwin Alcott said:

if you get in a discussion without the least interest what others bring in, and only rule by your own judgement, your choice is to make the forum exclusive for own opinions.
That last line works two sides.

I think we honestly may just be having a bit of miscommunication here.


That said, before things spiraled, there was a discussion about how LL makes things more difficult in how stuff is arranged. No buffers, low warnings between approach and teleports, increasing bad sim crossings that cause everyone I've spoken to issues with losing control and ending up off the road with steadily increasing regularity.

 

I do wonder about people, I mean SL is a social experience, to wall yourself off from everyone kinda seems like you're wasting resources being here when you could just spend $5 on a decades old game for your PC and get the same experience you do from maxing privacy in a virtual world without recurring tier costs.

 

The thing is I'm really not interested in their place, 90% of the time I cam in to see what is so important (funny, I wouldn't even have noticed their parcel, let alone cammed into it if they didn't put up "privacy" features) they dropped me in the middle of the highway and have to assume they put up ban lines out of sheer embarrassment for their low-poly decade old prim build. If something somewhere were fixed where their "privacy" wasn't knocking me out of my vehicle and costing me the time invested in travelling the length of a continent (and sometimes more for waterway related kicks) on a GTFO delivery I wouldn't be so grumpy about them putting "the precious" behind an ugly yellow biohazard wall that often looks better than the area they're attempting to protect from prying eyes while only managing to draw eyes to it.

[Alwin Alcott]

1 hour ago, NanashiNyx said:

I do wonder about people, I mean SL is a social experience, to wall yourself off from everyone kinda seems like you're wasting resources being here when you could just spend $5 on a decades old game for your PC and get the same experience you do from maxing privacy in a virtual world without recurring tier costs.

 i can't help to read it still as you'r forcing your view as rule, it's not.
 

[Setsuki Takeda]

1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

 i can't help to read it still as you'r forcing your view as rule, it's not.
 

Not really, a general puzzlement.

Why spend money on tier in a social virtual world to then choose to avoid unplanned interactions?

If you're only interacting with set group of people in a private area there are far cheaper, much nicer looking, and infinitely better optimized places to go than Second Life.

The thing that makes SL unique, and so long-lived, is (though someone might have other opinions on this, I certainly see *nothing* else done better here than competing services) the creation and sharing or content and experiences with strangers rather than any technical efficiency or sane pricing models.

The majority of the post you just replied to, and snipped out, still applies though...

 

If there were better protections in place for public areas that prevented nearby "private" areas from becoming a problem for anyone who travels by any means other than TPing to LMs (which, to be fair, is what most people in SL seem to do) then standing in place semi-AFK without doing anything this would not be an issue.

[Coffee Pancake]

5 hours ago, NanashiNyx said:

If you're only interacting with set group of people in a private area there are far cheaper, much nicer looking, and infinitely better optimized places to go than Second Life.

Actual games can be very inexpensive if you're prepared to wait a little while after launch, and only the big MMO's have a subscription model.

Join SL, find a community and social circle, get frustrated with the pace of platform advancement / performance / jank / cost, migrate en-masse to <discord channel> & <video game> with <mods>.

I'm in a few channels with huge friend groups that basically just log into SL for nostalgia. The discord groups are more active and grow faster than anything they managed in SL.

[Liaa Nova]

For me, I happen to like SL and spend time with anyone and everyone outside of my home. My home is somewhere that's a retreat and somewhere I can decorate and potter about uninterrupted or with friends. I play a combat game too that's gridewide, so banlines are a must

[Ardy Lay]

I was provoked.  People came to my place, which is not near a road or waterway that goes anywhere, and were rude in local chat, collided with and pushed me.  Bye-bye open access.  I am not on my personal parcel to meet people that comb the Second Life grid looking for people to harass.  Residents cannot dictate otherwise to me nor are they justified in telling me to dump my land on the mainland and pay way more for "an island" or private region.

What kind of markers can I put 54 meter above terrain to alert aircraft pilots and flying Residents to not enter below that altitude?

What kind of markers can I put on the water at the one corner of my land that is adjacent to Linden owned water to alert watercraft pilots and swimming residents not to enter?

 

[Mollymews]

15 minutes ago, Ardy Lay said:

What kind of markers can I put 54 meter above terrain to alert aircraft pilots and flying Residents to not enter below that altitude?

What kind of markers can I put on the water at the one corner of my land that is adjacent to Linden owned water to alert watercraft pilots and swimming residents not to enter?

 

as a vehicle enthusiast myself then I think that we, the enthusiasts, have to take responsibility for our own safety when travelling on mainland

we can use a TPV with a travel (parcel info) minimap, like Catznip, FS, etc. Or if we use another viewer then there are a number of HUDs that serve a similar purpose, we can obtain.  And if we choose not to do this then oh! well

when we choose to travel over private property on mainland and we get munted by no-script, parcel full, banline, or killed by an orb then oh! well

 

a thing about orbs

if I was a seller of an orb then I would script my orb in the timer event to broadcast my location/position on channel -1935. llRegionSay(-1935, "<X,Y,Z>") where <X,Y,Z> is the region position of the orb. So that a traveler can pick this message up with their own radar script

i pick channel -1935 as 1935 is the year that radar came. And I would encourage other orb makers to use this channel for the same purpose

given the known location of an orb then the traveler can give it a wide berth (i.e. don't go onto that parcel)

[Rowan Amore]

I have security on at my Horizons home.  It has roads on 2 sides.  and sim crossing, too.  I've never had anyone accidently drive into my parcel.  I've have had several people decide to walk in while I was there or even worse, TP to me up in my skybox.  They have 30 seconds to leave.  Plenty of time.  One girl made a point of messaging me to tell me I HAD to let her see my house.  Huh?  Really?  No, I paid a pretty penny for my parcel and I choose who can enter it.  

[Setsuki Takeda]

4 hours ago, Mollymews said:

we can use a TPV with a travel (parcel info) minimap, like Catznip, FS, etc. Or if we use another viewer then there are a number of HUDs that serve a similar purpose, we can obtain.  And if we choose not to do this then oh! well

Which even the people who *make* the TPVs will tell you SL does *not* send that information fast enough to be useful, and the HUDs that track them need to see them first, so a new ban line will still catch you unawares even if you have that pseudo-minimap full of bright colors taking up the top corner of your view.

4 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

They have 30 seconds to leave.  Plenty of time.

Usually, though sometimes the ones that pop-up instead of chat in local can steal focus and with the input lag that sometimes happens on a sim crossing you can't close the pop-up or change direction until it is too late.

4 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

One girl made a point of messaging me to tell me I HAD to let her see my house.  Huh?  Really?  No, I paid a pretty penny for my parcel and I choose who can enter it.  

Now that I don't get either...

There is *nowhere* on the mainland that I can't see, security can boot me out of my vehicle and keep me from walking onto a specific parcel but it can't keep me from camming in and even opening edit windows on rezzed items to the point where I can tell if they have custom scripting in them. If you just want to look around a place there is no need whatsoever to step foot in it. The only time I'd even feel the need to contact someone about their place if if they had something I was *really* interested in getting, and it did *not* have an in-world demo from the maker, in which case I might ask them if they'd be willing to rez one out for me somewhere so I could get a better "look" (read actually see the menus and poses for things like furniture) at it.

[Mollymews]

3 hours ago, NanashiNyx said:

Which even the people who *make* the TPVs will tell you SL does *not* send that information fast enough to be useful, and the HUDs that track them need to see them first, so a new ban line will still catch you unawares even if you have that pseudo-minimap full of bright colors taking up the top corner of your view.

the TPV minimap shows us where the parcel boundaries and region boundaries are. And when we use this information to stay on the public right-of-ways then we will never get caught up in banlines or get killed by an orb

the operative words are 'stay on the public right-of-ways'. When we choose not to do this and get killed then oh! well

to stay on the public right-of-ways then (same as in RL) we have to drive for the conditions.  Which means continually adapting our speed. When the region has lots of objects on it then we need to slow down. When a region has fewer objects then we can go faster. The more objects on a region the harder our viewer has to work, and the longer is the delay in our vehicle responding too our keyboard controls. Lag. On a SL moving vehicle lag is like a gusty wind in RL

going too fast for the conditions is what kills most drivers in SL (same as it does in RL)

Edited March 9, 2022 by Mollymews
region

[Eowyn Southmoor]

30 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

going too fast for the conditions is what kills most drivers in SL

^this. As a frequent traveller of SL's roads, skies, and waterways (115 hours racked up already this year), it never ceases to amaze me how few people drive/fly/boat to the conditions.

Driving at 100 mph into a corner crossing then wondering why you're suddenly separated from your car, doing 50 knots in a huge boat down a narrow protected channel and wondering why you ended up in someone's front yard with an orb suddenly hassling you , flying 30m off the ground and wondering why you've run into ban lines etc etc - these are the sorts of things that get people into trouble and can be avoided.

I really enjoy travelling round the mainland, and whilst sure some areas are much easier to navigate than others, a bit of planning, and using the right tools available (as Mollymews said) goes a long way to making it an enjoyable experience, and helps to mitigate any trouble spots.

[Aethelwine]

12 hours ago, Ardy Lay said:

I was provoked.  People came to my place, which is not near a road or waterway that goes anywhere, and were rude in local chat, collided with and pushed me.  Bye-bye open access.  I am not on my personal parcel to meet people that comb the Second Life grid looking for people to harass.  Residents cannot dictate otherwise to me nor are they justified in telling me to dump my land on the mainland and pay way more for "an island" or private region.

What kind of markers can I put 54 meter above terrain to alert aircraft pilots and flying Residents to not enter below that altitude?

What kind of markers can I put on the water at the one corner of my land that is adjacent to Linden owned water to alert watercraft pilots and swimming residents not to enter?

 

A wall texture on the outside of a physical prim even if phantom and only on the outside, so you don't see it would work well at ground level up to wall height without annoying the neighbours. That would work over water but you might prefer to use marker buoys instead like these: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/HVW-Regulatory-Buoys/21050118

[Aethelwine]

I disagree with the sentiment that because land owners can use orbs, banlines then they should. I can do all sorts of things that are undesirable. just because I can do something doesn't mean I should. Whether the use of orbs and banlines is justified depends on context.

I also disagree that people using the roads or waterways are entirely responsible if they hit an orb or transgress off a linden passageway and encounter problems. The vast majority of landowners along public routes appreciate the value of their parcel having unrestricted access along those routes.

There are many routes that require going over private parcels and others that are difficult to navigate without making a tight corner turn, or where the linden route is just a mess of varying sized width. Over zealous security along such routes, is obnoxious to travellers and to their neighbours.  The Landowner has better options using limited range orbs, or orbs with a timer.

Many of us spend much of our tier on land we encourage people to enter and enjoy. This going on private held land is bad attitude is alien to me and antithetical to our investment and enjoyment. The majority of people along public waterways and roads pay the premium to enjoy the public access along those routes.  Landowners should feel encouraged to collaborate and open up routes and passages across areas that have no Linden protected access.

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Aethelwine

[Mollymews]

1 hour ago, Aethelwine said:

I disagree with the sentiment that because land owners can use orbs, banlines then they should

is not so much that parcel owners should restrict access, is just that they can and some do. When so then is best to not stress about it, and detour round the blockage

also too about banlines. Seasoned travelers know to edit/move their vehicle stuck in a banline, back onto the road while they are still sitting on it, to avoid having the parcel return objects kick in

for sure it would be great should Linden one day implement bouncy parcel banlines for vehicles, til then right-click edit it is

but then a traveler's story about driving somebody else's vehicle, which means we can't edit/move it when the vehicle gets stuck in a banline

Starchild Rally beginning on Sistiana region. I had another go at this when Belli first joined the southern continent, just the one time. The journey ended when I hit a banline on a 4-corner crossing which also had a bend in the road. I was inching really slowing to do this crossing, but what happened was that my avatar was slow to complete the region crossing, the vehicle on crossing ahead of my avatar still had some tiny (tiny for that vehicle) power on, and it keep moving and ran itself off the road into the banline, upon which my avatar caught up, got seated, and oh! well

i had a quick look at the Starchild Rally leaderboard just before, I am now second on that one, Elysian (the rally owner) since has made it to lands end looks like

Edited March 9, 2022 by Mollymews
can't

[Setsuki Takeda]

5 hours ago, Eowyn Southmoor said:

Driving at 100 mph into a corner crossing then wondering why you're suddenly separated from your car, doing 50 knots in a huge boat down a narrow protected channel and wondering why you ended up in someone's front yard with an orb suddenly hassling you , flying 30m off the ground and wondering why you've run into ban lines etc etc - these are the sorts of things that get people into trouble and can be avoided.

I really enjoy travelling round the mainland, and whilst sure some areas are much easier to navigate than others, a bit of planning, and using the right tools available (as Mollymews said) goes a long way to making it an enjoyable experience, and helps to mitigate any trouble spots.

Conditions change, sometimes instantly, and lag seems to be completely random with me slowing to a crawl in nearly empty regions while having no issues along the main road beside Blake Sea with so much spammy crap crowding around as to be nearly physically painful to the eye...

 

Also, there's a lot of variation in the systems and connections people have, so saying "It's not a problem if..." only means it's not a problem for *you* with your PC and ISP. Even doing the same, or maybe even more, to mitigate issues someone may have a worse experience than you do.

My vehicles have a limit scripted into them for their speeds making them *unable* to go faster than 25kmph (40mph) in the "textured and named" folder I use for GTFO runs, it keeps me at a reasonable rate for a leisurely drive and *should* be slow enough to navigate even tight spots since it's easy to drop speed (if you have control of the vehicle and aren't trying to close a "WARNING: PRIVATE AREA!" orb pop-up) for even a 90 degree turn, the only time I *don't* use that script is in a racing yacht and you don't generally just sail one of those stripped down utilitarian things around "for funsies."

[Setsuki Takeda]

5 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

I was inching really slowing to do this crossing, but what happened was that my avatar was slow to complete the region crossing, the vehicle on crossing ahead of my avatar still had some tiny (tiny for that vehicle) power on, and it keep moving and ran itself off the road into the banline, upon which my avatar caught up, got seated, and oh! well

That's especially frustrating, seeing your vehicle move toward it while you have no control, hoping that it pops back to you instead of you popping over to it. Most of my failed runs have been from my vehicle creeping over *into* a parcel while I was sitting on air at the region border and then me bouncing forward to it and suddenly being *inside* a restricted parcel instead of bouncing off the invisible wall.

[Mollymews]

1 minute ago, NanashiNyx said:

Most of my failed runs have been from my vehicle creeping over *into* a parcel while I was sitting on air at the region border and then me bouncing forward to it and suddenly being *inside* a restricted parcel instead of bouncing off the invisible wall.

as you indicated you are able to mod your own vehicles scripts.  A way to ameliorate this issue is flip the vehicle status to non-physical on region crossing (which will stop it cold). Flipping status back to physical when the driver/agent has completed the crossing and is sitting on the vehicle

 

[Setsuki Takeda]

38 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

as you indicated you are able to mod your own vehicles scripts.  A way to ameliorate this issue is flip the vehicle status to non-physical on region crossing (which will stop it cold). Flipping status back to physical when the driver/agent has completed the crossing and is sitting on the vehicle

 

I'll need to look into how that is done, sounds like it would be quite helpful, and only one vehicle (M35 looks so nice, but has issues with region crossings on both sitting and camera angles, so I never use it) I own is nomod.

[Mollymews]

2 hours ago, NanashiNyx said:

I'll need to look into how that is done, sounds like it would be quite helpful

here is a quick code example to get you started (and anyone else reading who maybe is interested)

this example script is for a single owner driver vehicle which can be dropped into a vehicle and works independently of the vehicle's other scripts

there are a number of ways to this, I just typed this way up off the top of my head

 

default
{
   changed (integer change)
   {
      if (change & CHANGED_REGION)
      {
         // stop the vehicle from moving
         llSetStatus(STATUS_PHYSICS, FALSE);

         // wait for the owner driver. + 60 means wait for upto 60 seconds  
         integer wait = llGetUnixTime() + 60;
         while 
         (
             wait < llGetUnixTime() &&
             llGetLinkKey(llGetNumberOfPrims()) != llGetOwner()
         );  
         
         // the owner driver is now on the vehicle, or
         // after 60 seconds the owner driver still hasn't arrived on the region (maybe crashed)
         //
         // in either case, change status back to physical  
         llSetStatus(STATUS_PHYSICS, TRUE);               
      }
   }
}

 

[Prokofy Neva]

On 3/7/2022 at 3:57 PM, NanashiNyx said:

Nope, disabled single mom living on military survivor's benefits, definitely do *not* have the money to spare for much in the way of tier. I have shared areas before, with people we could agree on basic rules to be courteous to guests and random passersby, but I can't afford more than a quarter region on my own and that's after turning data off on my phone to redirect that money to tier payments.

The point is there are real privacy options available in Second Life, but they cost more, if you *need* privacy (and can't set it to skyboxes that don't affect everyone around you) it's likely better to work toward having one of those.

If you are poor, as I am, it actually costs *less* to buy land with no road access. If you have it blocked off so people passing by can't enter (and at paranoid levels where random users are losing their vehicles just becasue you are near) moving away from public access areas is the same tier payment with a lower cost to purchase the land.

There are entire regions completely empty between Linden Roads, though that costs $175 per month for tier if you grab the entire place, but can all be subdivided via ticket to LL so you can buy pretty much any size and shape parcel you want without making a nuisance of yourself by lining public areas with it. You can also likely find someone who*wants* roadside for public access and they can ticket a purchase from LL then trade the parcel with you so they own roadside to develop (or more likely flip, but that's another thing) and you have a private parcel to lock down without harming the ability of people to explore.

I'd be happy if the Lindens deprecated not only ban lines but the bounce/eject script (security orbs) functions on the Mainland -- period. But they won't. It would be great if they did, and people who want them can go to islands, which make up the majority of SL regions.

And after all, it isn't only rich people on private islands; poor people rent from the more wealthy island dealers, and not all island rentals are expensive.

I don't allow ban lines or security orbs in my rentals on the ground. They can only be in the sky at 500 m or higher. Thousands of people are happy with these rules. They like them. They enjoy the ability to fly around or walk around an area freely without angry messages or bounces; they like to visit a friend and not face a bounce because the friend forgot to put them in the safe list. 

But about once a month, someone either comes and rents and begins arguing and arguing me and won't stop, even if given a full refund, or someone repeatedly violates the rule and thinks of new things to do like putting a giant box over their house -- but even a clear box is not allowed - and their orb or box is returned. The point is not to make life miserable for your fellow tenants!  

And the biggest complaint is that people come in their houses while they are gone, and go on their adult furniture. Even without the adult part, the thought of people coming into their homes when they are gone sends them into a fury. It shouldn't, as they aren't there and it is only pixels; but it does even when they are there and can eject them with regular ban functions on the land. This is very hard wired. It doesn't go away for a few people. Most people don't care and go up in the sky or use ban/eject -- because they aren't bothered that often, it really is infrequent. But even once is enough to ruin some people's virtual experience. It is impossible to talk them out of it. 

Fortunately, it's a tiny minority. And fortunately they can find other rentals. And you could find other land in this buyer's market. You could look for areas even that aren't coherent communities where the existing owners don't have orbs put on.

[Coffee Pancake]

3 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

And the biggest complaint is that people come in their houses while they are gone,

I've logged in to people pixel humping on my bed many times over the years, doesn't bother me in the slightest. Although, when they take the time to get dressed before sheepishly teleporting away, I have to wonder if getting caught was the point 😂

But this does illustrate one of the reasons I am against mainland rentals. When it happens, the renter, not being owner of the land, is powerless to remove people from their home without scripted or landlord assistance. This is why there there are so many second life troll videos on you tube, jerks who show up knowing they can't be ejected.

[Sparkle Bunny]

I have to conclude that people who choose to live on roadside and enable banlines are just doing it to grief drivers. There is no other rational explanation.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

3 minutes ago, Sparkle Bunny said:

I have to conclude that people who choose to live on roadside and enable banlines are just doing it to grief drivers. There is no other rational explanation.

Using a tool given by LL in a manner totally in compliance with TOS is pretty much the opposite of "griefing". 

[Rowan Amore]

I have to conclude, people need to drive better.