If people want privacy so bad they put up ban lines...

[Sparkle Bunny]

1 minute ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

Using a tool given by LL in a manner totally in compliance with TOS is pretty much the opposite of "griefing". 

You keep telling yourself that. The end effect is the same.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

Just now, Sparkle Bunny said:

You keep telling yourself that. The end effect is the same.

LOL. Go ahead and AR someone who is using an allowed tool in an allowed fashion, and see how far it gets you. "Griefing" is as overused as the word "bullying". These words lose their meaning when they are tossed around willy-nilly like this. 

[LittleMe Jewell]

4 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I have to conclude, people need to drive better.

 

(totally off topic)

I cannot drive worth a crap in SL.  I realized just the other day, that this is also why I TP somewhere, fly a bit away from the landing zone, and do all of my stuff via camming -- because I also cannot navigate my own avatar very well.  Even prior to SL, I always sucked at games that required very careful navigating of the character.

Edited March 10, 2022 by LittleMe Jewell

[Istelathis]

I really wish LL implemented something like Blizzard's phasing, I just think it would solve a lot of people's problems.  It is practically already in SL as you can hide avatars outside of your parcel.  Doing it this way, would give people who want privacy the privacy they desire while letting the explorers of SL explore unhindered by orbs and ban lines.  

A simple group option, that shows you as invisible to others outside of that group and likewise everyone else invisible to you.  No trace of others when you want to be left alone.  If they really wanted to push the envelope, you could also make it so furniture and items likewise only display for people wearing the group tag.

Edited March 10, 2022 by Istelathis

[Coffee Pancake]

9 hours ago, Istelathis said:

I really wish LL implemented something like Blizzard's phasing,

Phasing destroyed spontaneous community in WoW and took a game where you could and would meet people along your journey, into one where you're playing with hundreds of others, and never seeing the same person twice.

[Istelathis]

@Coffee PancakeIt has had a lot of problems associated with it, and a lot of people who despise it - and I found it annoying when the cities used it so they could become ghost towns.  It made the last zombie event less fun, but I still managed to fend off the hordes in goldshire 🙃 With that said, it would be placed in control of the hands of the participants in SL.  People would have the choice if they wished to hide away from the world and only coexist with their group members, it would provide the people who want to be left alone a better option than security orbs or banlines, hopefully making such options pointless which in turn would open the world up for people who want to explore without fear of bouncing off walls or being teleported away to their home.

I don't believe it would have the same impact on SL, because the people who want to be left alone already are using whatever methods are available to make it possible.  Instead, they would have a superior tool available to them.  Now if LL were to make objects have an additional feature that could too be phased as an option people would no longer even have to be bothered with others using their furniture or roaming around their houses.

It is all a pipe-dream, nothing will ever come of it but I can always dream I stash that one with the 3D character preview pane,  the ability to paint terrain, as well as dig tunnels,  and our own premium account regions 🥰 

 

Edit:
An additional bonus is, that people who wanted to create custom builds in Bellisseria could do so, tie it in with a group and not have to worry about their items being returned as the only people who could see it would be the people wearing the tag.  We could have a multitude of movie theaters, bowling alleys, stores, cat lounges, hamster lounges, cat vs hamster gladiator pits,  and whatever without worrying about keeping in theme.  That is, if objects were tied in with the phasing.  No one would be the wiser to them, unless they wanted to see them and joined the group and intentionally activated the tag.  And here I go off again, dreaming.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Istelathis

[Aethelwine]

12 hours ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

Using a tool given by LL in a manner totally in compliance with TOS is pretty much the opposite of "griefing". 

I can use the tools that Linden Lab gives me to do any number of undesirable things. A friend regularly sends me particle hearts directed at me as part of a gesture they use to greet me, it is cute and always brings a smile to my face. If I was to use that same tool on someone sat behind their banline they may well feel like I was invading their personal space, that I was griefing them.

The section of policy relating to that says "Linden Lab aims to provide users with an enjoyable experience on the Service. Please be mindful that your actions may cause slow server performance or may inhibit another user’s ability to enjoy the Service." 

That same line could apply to badly used banlines or security as it can abuse of particle followers.

Now I am not saying that a parcel adjacent to a waterway, clearly marked by walls up to the edge of their boundary with a banline or orb could reasonably be said to be griefing to traffic going past. I wouldn't say they are being particularly social, perhaps anti-social but not in an especially concerning way.

On the other hand there are parcels, like one I know between Sea of Fables and Mare Secondus that is of minimum width and extends from the water bank across part of the waterway right up to the linden protected waterway, close to a corner. The security there is extremely unlikely to be there for protecting anyone's privacy, it is hard not to come to the conclusion the intent there is to inhibit peoples ability to enjoy the protected waterway. And that their intent is to disrupt and cause grief for travellers. Griefing. 

I can think of a few cases where people have parcel's in terrain terraformed to be waterway that are larger than that and could possibly be said to be there for the privacy of the owners. But if they are protecting their privacy why is their build in the sky and not in the area the banline is protecting? I can see they might misunderstand how their banlines work, but they will have been told politely countless times and probably less politely too that their security decision with banlines is not serving any useful purpose for them. So they should by now know that their continued use of their security is griefing peoples enjoyment of the linden water way and its intended purpose. Again then a situation that could easily fall under a definition of griefing and against TOS against inhibiting people's enjoyment of the service provided.

 For communities to survive and thrive in real life and virtual worlds neighbours have to work together or at least in ways that don't cause conflict.  

Edited March 11, 2022 by Aethelwine

[Aethelwine]

11 hours ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

LOL. Go ahead and AR someone who is using an allowed tool in an allowed fashion, and see how far it gets you. "Griefing" is as overused as the word "bullying". These words lose their meaning when they are tossed around willy-nilly like this. 

I prefer when referring to excessive use of security to terms relating to them being anti-social rather than griefing for this reason. Although as I say above griefing in some cases can in my mind can be reasonably argued.

Parcels open for community purposes are social places. Private spaces aren't intended to be social in the same way, but they become anti-social when they start becoming disruptive to their neighbours and traffic. 

[Setsuki Takeda]

That's pretty much the issue with them, it's not that they're private, it's that the privacy affects people who are not trying to visit them.

 

Honestly, I *have* ARed a few orbs.

 

Ever run into a parcel that boots you out of the air but didn't even see it? Not just a *crap!* when it pops up right in front of you at the last second, but completely saw nothing at all. You go back, look around, and find a tiny little micro-parcel with nothing on it but security orbs...

 

That *is* griefing, and breaking ToS, not just being anti-social and negligent of how the way you exercise your legitimate rights affect the enjoyment of others around you.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

6 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

I prefer when referring to excessive use of security to terms relating to them being anti-social rather than griefing for this reason. Although as I say above griefing in some cases can in my mind can be reasonably argued.

Parcels open for community purposes are social places. Private spaces aren't intended to be social in the same way, but they become anti-social when they start becoming disruptive to their neighbours and traffic. 

Some might say that people insisting that they have the right to intrude on property belonging to others are the ones "griefing" and being "anti-social". Those who own property are allowed to use ban lines or orbs. Period.

People who can't drive need to find open roads to crash around on. 

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

6 hours ago, Aethelwine said:

 For communities to survive and thrive in real life and virtual worlds neighbours have to work together or at least in ways that don't cause conflict.  

Sure. Let's start by not judging those who are more introverted. We don't all have to be "social" according to the terms of those who don't respect boundaries.

[Ardy Lay]

The Gods (Linden Lab) gave to us, Premium Membership Residents, the ability to acquire 'land" from Linden Lab and other Residents and included the ability to include or exclude from occupying this 'land' whomsoever we choose.  You know this.  Avoid crossing the line unless invited.

[Sparkle Bunny]

2 hours ago, Ardy Lay said:

The Gods (Linden Lab) gave to us, Premium Membership Residents, the ability to acquire 'land" from Linden Lab and other Residents and included the ability to include or exclude from occupying this 'land' whomsoever we choose.  You know this.  Avoid crossing the line unless invited.

There's this thing called 'lag'. Have you heard of it? It quite often causes issues for vehicles at sim crossings and causes them to veer off -course, or travel further than intended. This is only one of many reasons why no actual introvert would be half-witted enough to try and live on a roadside parcel when skyboxes exist. It would make about as much sense as opening a club on an island, limiting access solely to themselves, and wondering why they weren't being highlighted on the destination guide.

Some people find it amusing to watch cars bouncing off invisble walls, or to teleport newbies to a home they haven't yet set, or to rez giant footballs in the middle of the road and kick them onto the surrounding parcels. They tend to take offence when these forms of entertainment are labelled as 'griefing' or 'anti-social behaviour', much like the people who rant about 'drama' in their profiles without apparently pausing to think why it might be following them around so much.

[Aethelwine]

4 hours ago, Ardy Lay said:

The Gods (Linden Lab) gave to us, Premium Membership Residents, the ability to acquire 'land" from Linden Lab and other Residents and included the ability to include or exclude from occupying this 'land' whomsoever we choose.  You know this.  Avoid crossing the line unless invited.

You also know Linden lab give us the tools to grief people with replicating spammers, to target people with particles. Just because the tools are there doesn't mean it is okay to use them.

If people do as you say and should never set foot outside a linden passageway on their vehicle then everyone loses so much, the landowners that build bypasses and through ways. The collective of landowners that have built a passageway across the top of nautilus could not be enjoyed because there is no Linden Passageway there, the passage is created by the collective will of the 20 or more landowners opening their land up along that route.

That narrow one dimensional view of rights has us losing so much freedom and so much opportunity as land owners and as a group to make a more creative and fulfilling world.

Edited March 11, 2022 by Aethelwine

[Setsuki Takeda]

Well, since this is pretty central to the debate here, let me see if I can rephrase this...

 

People who actually have psychological issues with crowds will almost certainly take appropriate steps to minimize contact with them, not go where they can't help but be and then take issue with the fact that they are there.

 

I don't see anyone who has a real issue with visitors placing themself in a high traffic area, making your land an issue for people draws attention rather than diverts it, as someone with psychological issues related to crowds I try to avoid attracting notice as much as possible and putting up glowing lines or kicking people out of their vehicles when they pass along "protected areas" very much draws attention to you.

Many of the responses here have been generally rather disingenuous. A lot of "you are not entitled to enter someone's home" when the point is that the way second life works you don't need to have any intent to do so to be caught by "security" that extends well beyond private areas. The typical 4m buffer along Linden Roads is not sufficient to keep people from accidentally entering them, and not just because of "bad driving" or "going too fast" since lag and regional conditions can totally remove your ability to navigate for brief periods of time and parcel ejection doesn't work well with the "seated" users who are passing by in vehicles rather than through said parcels.

 

A lot of the "privacy" and "security" in Second Life is more akin to someone setting up a sprinkler to spray people down on the sidewalk than closing the gate and putting up a "no trespassing" sign.

[Aethelwine]

9 hours ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

Some might say that people insisting that they have the right to intrude on property belonging to others are the ones "griefing" and being "anti-social".

People can say all manner of things it doesn't make them right.

If someone saying that is saying that a person coming into their living room is griefing them, then that is fine and makes sense.

But an individual using security measures that creates a trap to ensnare travellers (like my water way examples you are responding to) and says that they are being social in their actions is clearly wrong where their neighbours have been careful to make the route otherwise safe to travel. The exclusion they are creating is anti-social to their neighbours and to the travellers using that route.

You say we shouldn't go judging them, because they might be introverted?.. If they are introverted then their actions are clearly not going to be helpful to them. Whether you like it or not they will be judged, people will feel griefed when their boat hits their banline, when their neighbour realises that the otherwise open water way has now been spoiled and some will express that to the person. If you have advised an introvert that has done that to stick with their guns, they are doing nothing wrong... then I am afraid that is terrible advice, damaging to the individual, their relationships with their neighbours and the community they have chosen to live in.

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Aethelwine

[diamond Marchant]

A most inconsiderate use of banlines occurs then they are placed in an otherwise navigable waterway without any visual clues as to their presence. In the examples below, the banlines border Linden protected water.

Edited March 12, 2022 by diamond Marchant

[Cali Souther]

13 minutes ago, diamond Marchant said:

A most inconsiderate use of banlines occurs then they are placed in an otherwise navigable waterway without any visual clues as to their presence. In the examples below, the banlines border Linden protected water.

Those are the ones I usually run into .. since I can not drive a car or a boat in SL,  but still try from time to time.   

It's a shame there isn't a way to fix the problem and still allow people to feel they can have their privacy.  This is obviously a subject people are very passionate about.

I've flown into more than my share of ban lines and security orbs,  etc.    I never mean to intrude,  but I don't want to "see" all the ban lines - so I have them turned off.   So,  I live with it.   

[Sparkle Bunny]

10 minutes ago, Aethelwine said:

 If you have advised an introvert that has done that to stick with their guns, they are doing nothing wrong... then I am afraid that is terrible advice, damaging to the individual, their relationships with their neighbours and the community they have chosen to live in.

Can we just be clear, here, that nobody has ever advised an introvert that living on a roadside and putting up banlines and/or zero-second orbs is a better solution to their aversion to being disturbed than hanging out 3500m above ground? And that even if they had, said introvert would figure out very quickly that they were being trolled?

Sometimes people use the word 'introvert' when they're actually talking about misanthropists. Misanthropists absolutely want nobody on their property, ever. They want nobody on the road driving past it, or the waterway sailing past. They want nobody on their sim. Damaging their relationships with their neighbours just brings them one step closer to the day the neighbours abandon their unsaleable land and leave it beautifully empty. And don't even try talking to them about 'the community they have chosen to live in'. Those are just the suckers they haven't succeeded in driving out yet.

[Sylvia Tamalyn]

1 hour ago, Aethelwine said:

then I am afraid that is terrible advice, damaging to the individual, their relationships with their neighbours and the community they have chosen to live in.

 

As opposed to people in this thread insisting that those who use orbs, etc. are all sorts of awful, big bad griefy meanies. That's not damaging to "community" at all. Got it!

[Coffee Pancake]

Keep in mind .. you can't see your own ban lines.

[Rowan Amore]

You want community, move to Belli.  But I hear they allow security orbs.

Don't care to know my neighbors, don't want to be part of the community, couldn't care less about any 'relationship' with either.  There's road and sidewalk and an easement area on 2 sides of my property as well as 60 sec to get your act together if you should wander in unexpectedly.  If I'm feeling social, I go somewhere else.  

 

[Istelathis]

Flying over mainland is a definite no go for me, it is just to easy to be teleported via orbs.  I have a HUD that keeps up with the location of orbs, but even that can be tricky and takes a while to load the region so travel has to be slowed to a halt.  Driving is okay though, I find one must have a decently scripted vehicle.. a lot of the cars I have tried are lousy and are all over the road.  My favorite cars have been free, thankfully..  Boating with the HUD is a little easier, but I find using Firestorm's about land will show property lines that are easier to navigate for the tight spots.  

For those of you having a tough time driving, try one of the cars from aleymart on the marketplace, they are free and you may find it a lot easier to navigate with.  My favorite are their bugs   Head over to Bellisseria when you want to fly, and there is great boating areas there as well.

Edit:
As a side note, I find Catznip to be the best viewer I have used for driving.  It somehow seems to handle region crossings a lot better than the others I have used at comparable graphic settings.  In catznip, I rarely find myself flying through regions or in the air when crossing borders while driving.  
 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Istelathis

[Mollymews]

2 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

A most inconsiderate use of banlines occurs then they are placed in an otherwise navigable waterway without any visual clues as to their presence. In the examples below, the banlines border Linden protected water.

Linden do provide a visual clue in the viewer as you are showing. The yellow banline tape

a question for Linden is could this be done in another less visually obtrusive way, How I dunno yet

 setting this to one side for the moment

the viewer does provide an alternative - Show parcel boundaries in the view.  A issue with this is that often the parcel boundaries don't show thru the water, or show on land where the lines can be obscured by rezzed objects

i wonder whether parcel boundaries (when enabled) could be rendered last, so that in the scene above the parcel boundaries are drawn on top of the water, and drawn over rezzed objects

Edited March 12, 2022 by Mollymews
drawn

[Setsuki Takeda]

9 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

the viewer does provide an alternative - Show parcel boundaries in the view.  A issue with this is that often the parcel boundaries don't show thru the water, or show on land where the lines are obscured by rezzed objects

I actually keep parcel boundaries enabled at all times on every viewer, they disappear (like hovertext) when taking a photo so they don't generally need to be turned off. A lot of paces rez in a platform or mesh landscaping, though, and parcel boundaries are obscured by them. Another thing that is an issue with how SL handles their features...

 

They have tools for "privacy" that don't do much to stop griefing and stalking, proven by the (thankfully rare) ARs I've filed on people standing on the Linden Road attacking my parcel and avatar after being banned and blacklisted, but they do react in an overzealous manner to random passersby. Linden labs needs to figure out privacy and security, both in a way that actually protects people from harassment, and in a way that allows random passersby to not be adversely affected by people who were either anti-social to begin with or maybe just got sick of the trolls and locked everything down.

 

Insufficient warnings ahead of entering them, lag on crossings that can cause unintentional entry into public adjacent areas that continues to get worse rather than improve after server updates, and best of all the ones who are actually blocked, banned, and blacklisted can still harass people on the parcel until (if they ever do) LL does something about them since there are no security or privacy tools that actually work to stop a determined griefer unless you have control over the *entire* region short of filing an AR and crossing your fingers.

 

The issue here is as much in benefit of those who want privacy as it is for those who want to travel in peace. The way things are done now do *not* protect people, they only make travel harder, and get people (from both sides) angry with their neighbors causing arguments and drama that should never have been an issue.