Is SL too hard for newbies?

[Sammy Huntsman]

1 minute ago, Extrude Ragu said:

I had noticed a pretty substantial looking commit in SecondLife's viewer repo named 'Rigged Mesh Rendering Overhaul' which had me wondering if they are working on performance things 🤔 Maybe related,

 

Where do I find that? 

 

[Extrude Ragu]

1 minute ago, Sammy Huntsman said:

Where do I find that? 

 

Over on their repo on bitbucket

[Coffee Pancake]

5 hours ago, cunomar said:

Rather than quoting myself from the what works in SL thread , i will simply ask why isn't there a gateway to Sansar in SL , why isn't it just another sim with alternative parameters .

Because Sansar isn't owned or operated by LL anymore.

They sold it and let a ton of employees go.

[Adam Spark]

On 11/24/2021 at 10:02 AM, Coffee Pancake said:

Beta tends to mean finished yet unpolished. 

In Sansars case, the fundamental platform we got on the first day was representative. Everything alluding to greater things in the future was just hype that predicated such additional functionality on growth.

Or in other words, none of the promise would be delivered if people didn't jump on the beta as though it was already perfect.

Sure, companies present Beta as a way of making you think its not finished, in the same way tweaks to existing features are nowadays being advertised as features. 75 additional emojis would never be referred to as a feature at one time, but today it is. Windows 11 is just Windows 10 with a new skin, but if you buy their advertising, you'd think that was groundbreaking.

By definition though, Beta is not finished. Sansar wasn't. It got new features and improvements every other day it seemed (only a subset of which were meaningful, fair enough), and was actually considerably better when it was sold off, compared to when it was launched (Especially on the mouse and keyboard side, once they came to their senses and got off the VR bandwagon heading nowhere). Once that stopped being done, it was no longer beta and got sold. They were improving it, they just gave up long before it was good.

[Coffee Pancake]

Just now, Adam Spark said:

By definition though, Beta is not finished. Sansar wasn't. It got new features and improvements every other day it seemed (only a subset of which were meaningful, fair enough), and was actually considerably better when it was sold off, compared to when it was launched (Especially on the mouse and keyboard side, once they came to their senses and got off the VR bandwagon heading nowhere). Once that stopped being done, it was no longer beta and got sold. They were improving it, they just gave up long before it was good.

SL is still in beta.

[Madelaine McMasters]

33 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Because Sansar isn't owned or operated by LL anymore.

They sold it and let a ton of employees go.

California has the lowest obesity rate in the US, so that might actually be a fair number of people. Looking at it another way, they could all fit in an elevator.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Madelaine McMasters

[Sammy Huntsman]

2 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

California has the lowest obesity rate in the US, so that might actually be a fair number of people. Looking at it another way, they could all fit in an elevator.

What does that have to do with what was said prior? 

[Sammy Huntsman]

to be honest with this question. I do, maybe back then it was much easier. As people accepted people for however they looked, the community, in general, was much more helpful and there was less of a push that everyone is mesh. Nowadays people won't talk to anyone who looks like they are using the default standard or mesh avatars, and basically, we have this mesh snobbery in SL. That all being said, yes I do think a lot of changes should be made to introducing people to SL as well. 

[Coffee Pancake]

6 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

California has the lowest obesity rate in the US, so that might actually be a fair number of people. Looking at it another way, they could all fit in an elevator.

Sansar's entire concurrent userbase could fit in an elevator

[Adam Spark]

Just now, Coffee Pancake said:

SL is still in beta.

From a development perspective, almost all software is in beta in terms of its simplistic definition of not finished. Beta should be reserved for those programs and platforms not quite ready for everyone. Problem is that's a grey area thanks to those who use beta programs not because they like to test and provide feedback, but because they can download it and therefore it "should be finished".

SL is out of beta, but in constant development. Sansar was never really out of beta until it got sold. Sansar's problem is it should have probably been considered an Alpha and not released to the masses for testing and experimentation when it was. Linden Lab dropped word of Sansar a year too early at least.

[Silent Mistwalker]

4 hours ago, Lindal Kidd said:

It's not too hard for SOME newbies!

Last night, I met one who thought he was playing "Firestorm", asked me if the freebie landmarks I had sent him was needed to complete "the quest", asked if he only had the one avatar, and asked if I was "the owner".

But in spite of his misperceptions, he was very sharp. He caught on quickly and by the end of an hour or so he'd tried out several avatars, made and manipulated his first prim, understood the concept of making and importing mesh, and was following my suggestions to fix an inventory issue.

Sadly, we didn't manage to fix it. All of his Library folders were empty, except for the Clothing folder and the Linden DPW content. This should NOT happen to a newbie!

Then maybe he shouldn't have used Firestorm as his first viewer? Where else would he get the idea he was playing a game called Firestorm? 

One of the first things you should do when that happens on a TPV is log in with the official viewer and see if the same thing happens. If it doesn't then there is something you can do that is on the FS wiki to fix it. If it does happen on the official viewer you need to file a support ticket.

Newbies really do need to use the official viewer for the first few days at least before diving into TPVs that have way more bells and whistles.

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Silent Mistwalker

[ChinRey]

4 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Sansar's entire concurrent userbase could fit in an elevator

Edited November 25, 2021 by ChinRey

[Jennifer Boyle]

12 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Newbies really do need to use the official viewer for the first few days at least before diving into TPVs that have way more bells and whistles.

 

The problem with that is that many people, including me, who are eager to help them can't effectively help them because we are not familiar enough with the LL viewer. And no, I'm not so eager to help that I'm willing to familiarize myself with it. I logon once a month or so with the LL viewer for various reasons, and every time, I realize why I use Firestorm instead.

It seems strange to me that a group of unpaid volunteers can produce a better viewer than people who are making one as part of their jobs.

[BjorJlen]

8 minutes ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

It seems strange to me that a group of unpaid volunteers can produce a better viewer than people who are making one as part of their jobs.

   Actually Jennifer, it doesn't surprise me at all. There is a long proven history in gaming, especially online gaming, that the people who play them often times come up with and create FAR better Mods and gaming resources then those that made the game in the first place and run/update it. The Sim's 4 is just ONE example in a long line of games that goes back years, if not over a few decades, and I am positive that many here could list quite a few more games as well.
   So I wouldn't call it strange myself, as it is sad in the end. Because most every single time, instead of the gaming company hiring said person(s), the company just continues to put out content that doesn't even come close to what some great Modder's can come up with on a regular basis. And to think, if that actually happened with hiring players, just how many bugs and issues in this game alone could be fixed, let alone create more advanced content and gaming "code" possibly. But at least we got the game to enjoy, hard for new players or not...

Peace...

[Sammy Huntsman]

12 minutes ago, BjorJlen said:

   Actually Jennifer, it doesn't surprise me at all. There is a long proven history in gaming, especially online gaming, that the people who play them often times come up with and create FAR better Mods and gaming resources then those that made the game in the first place and run/update it. The Sim's 4 is just ONE example in a long line of games that goes back years, if not over a few decades, and I am positive that many here could list quite a few more games as well.
   So I wouldn't call it strange myself, as it is sad in the end. Because most every single time, instead of the gaming company hiring said person(s), the company just continues to put out content that doesn't even come close to what some great Modder's can come up with on a regular basis. And to think, if that actually happened with hiring players, just how many bugs and issues in this game alone could be fixed, let alone create more advanced content and gaming "code" possibly. But at least we got the game to enjoy, hard for new players or not...

Peace...

Another big example is the Elder Scrolls and Fallout series from Bethesda. People have been making patches and bug fixes to these games for many years. I honestly find volunteers who have a love for a game or a platform. Will work harder to make each users experience better.

[Silent Mistwalker]

8 hours ago, Jennifer Boyle said:

The problem with that is that many people, including me, who are eager to help them can't effectively help them because we are not familiar enough with the LL viewer. And no, I'm not so eager to help that I'm willing to familiarize myself with it. I logon once a month or so with the LL viewer for various reasons, and every time, I realize why I use Firestorm instead.

It seems strange to me that a group of unpaid volunteers can produce a better viewer than people who are making one as part of their jobs.

You want to help but you don't want to help. That must be difficult to deal.

That's the difference between doing what you love and loving what you do.

[Evah Baxton]

No.

[SarahKB7 Koskinen]

Second life is not "too hard"for newbies, it's just unfamiliar to them.

As with all things. with time, experience and practice, Second Life becomes "second nature" (!) and much simpler to use.

Perhaps present day newbies could actually be more impatient than earlier newbies and expect the SL environment to be be the same as those found on their touchscreen devices and games consoles, instead of the PC style mouse-WIMP-keyboard system that has existed for far longer.

Many of the newbies are probably videogamers, unfamiliar with Second Life and assume its just another "game".  Perhaps gamers expect SL to be an "on-rails" game with a scripted story or plot, with a task or mission objective and rewards given for achieving a level or goal reached?  SL itself is not a game, but is capable of hosting game-like environments and experiences.

Those who come to SL expecting a reward and goal based videogame such as Fortnite are surely to be disappointed and won't stay long - unless they learn to adapt to SL culture and not expect SL to be a "game" focused purely around themselves.

Edited November 28, 2021 by SarahKB7 Koskinen

[cunomar]

I wasn't on Lindens viewer for long before everyone insisted i used Firestorm (for rlv) but to my neanderthal mind theres not much difference that i can remember .

To run before you can walk has been mentioned a few times in this thread i think , but it seems to me those with more prior experience or general knowledge of computers are unable to forget what they know in order to empathize with those who don't know .

This is not an SL observation but something i see all over the web .

"help i'm in the middle of nowhere and my car won't start"

might get 50 helpful comments which i will condense into , ignoring all the theories, part numbers , bridge the starter motor solenoid with a screwdriver .

and the OP will reply "where is the starter motor what does it look like" .

I will get battered for this 🤣 but the winning formula is to have the wizards learning from the neanderthals

[Syndi Carver]

It depends....but the short answer is often yes because people come in with the wrong idea about what SL is and what it can be. I've introduced a few people to SL over the years and so far only 1 of them has successfully gotten into it for the long haul. The thing I often notice the most is that a lot of them can't seem to move away from the idea that SL is a game similar to WoW or Diablo or some BS RPG like that. While yes, you can do an RPG in SL, it can be soooo much more than that. I come here for the photography aspect and I love being able to decorate my little linden home about 153488234 different ways. So its a mess free, no consequences if I mess up kind of creative outlet for me.

Another issue I often find why noobs don't tend to stick around too often is that they find the interface too difficult to navigate because they're once again comparing it to other games where the interface is more limiting on what can and can not be done.

[Silent Mistwalker]

SL isn't a game. It's a sandbox.

[cunomar]

16 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

SL isn't a game. It's a sandbox.

Best description by far i have ever seen .

If your not into creating stuff then this game ain't for you .

[Silent Mistwalker]

21 hours ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

SL isn't a game. It's a sandbox.

 

5 hours ago, cunomar said:

Best description by far i have ever seen .

If your not into creating stuff then this game ain't for you .

 

What a load of horsecrap. WTF is wrong with you?

1) I REPEAT, SL IS NOT A GAME.

2) You don't have to be into making things to have a place in SL! 

You deliberately twisted my words around to mean what you want them to mean. Again. You've done this several times. Stop it.

[Sammy Huntsman]

4 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

1) I REPEAT, SL IS NOT A GAME.

I mean that is very subjective, to some people, it is a game. You really can't tell people how to think. That being said, you don't have to be a creator to enjoy SL, that I can agree with. 

[Rowan Amore]

5 hours ago, cunomar said:

Best description by far i have ever seen .

If your not into creating stuff then this game ain't for you .

The only thing I've ever created in 12+ years is a lovely wooden box.  I've styled avatars, landscaped and decorated my home.  Does that count as creating?   I've never considered it a game either but a social platform and it's more than fulfilled that niche.