Interaction with non-human avatars and the subconscious

[Gopi Passiflora]

(The goal of this post is to ask a question (albeit maybe trivial and simple), not as a trolling attempt, but it's again another random thing that came to my mind. If you see it that way, I apologize.)

If you know me by now I wear a lot of non-human avis such as aliens, animals, monsters, and what have you. Many SL people like to comment on my avis since they are unusual to say the least.  I also occasionally comment on others' non-human avis. I'm pretty sure when someone talks to be like I'm really an alien, they know it's a joke and they know I'm not really one, and the same goes for me when I comment on a "Dinkie" avi like it was really a tiny cat - I know that the being controlling the Dinkie is really human.

What I'm concerned about in this topic is the "subconscious" psyche. Yeah, sure you know the reality, but do you think there's a subconscious part of your mind that still is "convinced" that an unusual avi you see in SL is non-human?  It's kinda hard to put into words - I guess what I'm describing is a sort of "hidden" instinct that goes in your head whenever you see such an avi. It may not manifest but you at least feel different when interacting with the avi as opposed to a human one.

I think I at least feel this way - it's kinda hard to describe. For example it may explain why I find non-human avis more trustworthy than male humans at least (although I specify male human avis because of bad experiences, too). I think it also manifests in some people's attitudes towards hon-human avatars (some people like them more than humans, so do not, etc.)

(I apologize if this seems unclear or whatever, but as always I'm just interested in a discussion.)

 

[Akane Nacht]

Depends on what schema is running in your head when you encounter one I suppose. As you mentioned about male avatars, you had some bad experiences so that colours how you may view them. For animal/creature avatars, I've generally found them to be either 1) just wearing a costume cos they won it in a gacha, or  2) are really having fun with being a creature and throwing themselves into the part so to speak. The latter are always interesting to interact with, though they can be a little nutty.

[June Starlight]

24 minutes ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

Yeah, sure you know the reality, but do you think there's a subconscious part of your mind that still is "convinced" that an unusual avi you see in SL is non-human?

Not really. Not for me at least. My brain "reads" avatars in the similar way it does the clothes people would choose to wear in real life. I might draw conclusions based on what the person is wearing, but it wouldn't make me question if they are human for real or not.

I've met both wonderful and absolutely awful people wearing all kinds of avatars. Wear both human and non-human forms myself. And feel most comfortable in crowds where different kinds of avatars (shapes, sizes, species, genders, whatever) can mix freely together. 

[Ceka Cianci]

I think I've been here too long to really see anyone as anything but another human..I think  like with a lot of things, Humans develop patterns of what they experience and see..

Speaking for myself,Things became much easier to read as the years went by, plus I find the more technical things I learn about a platform, the more it pulls my mind away from immersion..

I wish it wasn't like that for me, but it is..

When I look at an avatar that has caught my interest, I wonder more about the user than the avatar.. Things like, I wonder what they have on the shelves in thier room or I wonder where they are from.. A zillion things go through my head while I'm looking at them or their profile..

Pretty much, when I'm chatting with another avatar, I'm talking with the person and not the avatar, pretty much..This is pretty much why I suck at any kind of SL RP.. hehehe

 

[Bree Giffen]

1 hour ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

What I'm concerned about in this topic is the "subconscious" psyche. Yeah, sure you know the reality, but do you think there's a subconscious part of your mind that still is "convinced" that an unusual avi you see in SL is non-human?  It's kinda hard to put into words - I guess what I'm describing is a sort of "hidden" instinct that goes in your head whenever you see such an avi. It may not manifest but you at least feel different when interacting with the avi as opposed to a human one.

I would think the opposite is true. We tend to anthropomorphize everything. For example, people talking to their pets or to plants. In regards to SL I suppose that even if we see something like a scripted bot we'd still think of it as being human. But there are still people who believe in fantasy and superstition. I thought this type of thinking disappeared with the middle-ages but seeing things in the media today shows that it's stronger than ever. 

[Sid Nagy]

Just like Ceka already pointed out, in the end for me it is all about the person behind the avatar that matters, not the form or shape of the avatar itself.

[Stephanie Misfit]

No, never.

[panterapolnocy]

I try to treat the avatars as what they present themselves as, I focus on inworld behavior and the "mind", the disembodied person/spirit itself that is driving them - and forget that there is a human being behind them, flesh and bone, controlling them via keyboard and mouse. Second Life is a virtual world, my personality core comes from IRC roleplays, so if there is an option for immersion - I grab it. There are enough humans in real life already, so I let the fantasy flow in virtual environments.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact that each avatar (not a bot) IS controlled by a human at the end and every one of them should be shown respect. For some of such, being treated like a creature or animal IS such respect.

[Nick0678]

Nah the avatars are just in game characters just like in any other game.

If i am in the mood i might role play for a while but other than that they mean absolutely nothing to me neither will make me more or less interested to the real person. (if that person wants to reveal themselves to me of course)

 

 

[Maitimo]

9 hours ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

What I'm concerned about in this topic is the "subconscious" psyche. Yeah, sure you know the reality, but do you think there's a subconscious part of your mind that still is "convinced" that an unusual avi you see in SL is non-human? 

No, but then again, if it's subconscious, how would I even know?

 

9 hours ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

For example it may explain why I find non-human avis more trustworthy than male humans at least (although I specify male human avis because of bad experiences, too). I think it also manifests in some people's attitudes towards hon-human avatars (some people like them more than humans, so do not, etc.

 

I do at least concur with this, at least when it comes to Tinies, Dinkies and similar, because these groups are much more likely to be non-sexual and therefore an individual using an avatar like this is not very likely to be a sexual predator.  So when I get an IM from a male tiny or dinkie I don't get cautious like I do when I get an IM from a male human.  Regular furries fall somewhere inbetween I think, so it's not so much the non-human-ness of the avatar, it's more to do with the reputation of the community they belong to or represent.

[Porphyry Kimono]

For me it's a kind of breaking-the-third-wall thing. Most of the people I interact with have human avatars, so that's what I'm used to. I know that the avatar isn't the person, but it's how they chose to represent themselves.

At times there's a dissonance, though -- like the time a beautiful female avatar approached me and wanted to have sex with me. I said I wasn't interested in women, so the person said, "It's okay -- I'm actually a guy." When I said that it didn't change anything for me, they offered to switch to their male avatar. I had to log off to get away from their insistent requests.

It offended me. Certainly that person was completely in their rights to do and say all that they did, but the OP is about how we react. I reacted by getting the hell out. To me, it's like when you see a play or movie or read a book -- there's a consistency and coherence to it all. If the author suddenly says, "Okay, it's all a dream -- everyone's actually on a farm in Kansas," you CAN make that work, but it can't be your standard operating procedure. If you want to be a woman this minute, then a talking airplane the next, and then a robot with male genitals the next, you're ruining the immersion. If that's how you want to do SL, then do it. I won't play along.

If a person decides to be an alien or a furry or a tiny in SL, then okay, yes. I can deal with that, I'll be happy to chat with you, but I'm not taken in. There was a tiny guy who I used to let sit on my lap, but once he started talking as if he were a full-size man, that ended it.

In RL when I see a man in a cowboy hat, I'm 99% sure that he's not a cowboy. I don't assume that he knows anything about horses. And sure, I'll talk to him, but if he believes that I'm taken in by his partial costume, he's dreaming.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Porphyry Kimono

[Prokofy Neva]

12 hours ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

(The goal of this post is to ask a question (albeit maybe trivial and simple), not as a trolling attempt, but it's again another random thing that came to my mind. If you see it that way, I apologize.)

If you know me by now I wear a lot of non-human avis such as aliens, animals, monsters, and what have you. Many SL people like to comment on my avis since they are unusual to say the least.  I also occasionally comment on others' non-human avis. I'm pretty sure when someone talks to be like I'm really an alien, they know it's a joke and they know I'm not really one, and the same goes for me when I comment on a "Dinkie" avi like it was really a tiny cat - I know that the being controlling the Dinkie is really human.

What I'm concerned about in this topic is the "subconscious" psyche. Yeah, sure you know the reality, but do you think there's a subconscious part of your mind that still is "convinced" that an unusual avi you see in SL is non-human?  It's kinda hard to put into words - I guess what I'm describing is a sort of "hidden" instinct that goes in your head whenever you see such an avi. It may not manifest but you at least feel different when interacting with the avi as opposed to a human one.

I think I at least feel this way - it's kinda hard to describe. For example it may explain why I find non-human avis more trustworthy than male humans at least (although I specify male human avis because of bad experiences, too). I think it also manifests in some people's attitudes towards hon-human avatars (some people like them more than humans, so do not, etc.)

(I apologize if this seems unclear or whatever, but as always I'm just interested in a discussion.)

 

I'm not getting this at all.

The way you can tell there is a human behind a furry or creature of some type is because...they talk. That's how you know they are humans.

Or let's say they are a tree. Or even a cardboard box. They talk -- that's how you know. The jig is up. No Uncanny Valley to be crossed.

Next question?

 

[Chroma Starlight]

It's possible to progress from synesthesia to deeper perceptions; our "big" discovery in 2018 was that Animism in Second Life "works" the same as it does in First Life. 

[Nick0678]

11 hours ago, Bree Giffen said:

I would think the opposite is true. We tend to anthropomorphize everything. For example, people talking to their pets or to plants. In regards to SL I suppose that even if we see something like a scripted bot we'd still think of it as being human. But there are still people who believe in fantasy and superstition. I thought this type of thinking disappeared with the middle-ages but seeing things in the media today shows that it's stronger than ever. 

Ahh . yes. I have noticed that some people do that.

(To be honest it is a bit funny to see people talk to plants etc, personally i only chat with God.)

 

[tailpa]

10 minutes ago, Nick0678 said:

Ahh . yes. I have noticed that some people do that.

(To be honest it is a bit funny to see people talk to plants etc, personally i only chat with God.)

I'm pretty sure gods and God alike are powerful enough to be a plant or a rock or a kitchen appliance if they please. Why would you place limits on what a benevolent kind loving creator being would be capable of creating or being? Are you sure that's right?

[Luna Bliss]

13 hours ago, Gopi Passiflora said:

What I'm concerned about in this topic is the "subconscious" psyche. Yeah, sure you know the reality, but do you think there's a subconscious part of your mind that still is "convinced" that an unusual avi you see in SL is non-human?  It's kinda hard to put into words - I guess what I'm describing is a sort of "hidden" instinct that goes in your head whenever you see such an avi. It may not manifest but you at least feel different when interacting with the avi as opposed to a human one.

I love how you post questions when you don't really know the answer, and invite us to discuss so you can consider the issues more.  Wonder and exploration is the spice of life

Personally, how I experience this very much depends on my mood. If I'm feeling very open I'm much more sensitive to everything around me. If I've had a hard day, or feel depressed, there isn't much color to everything and I'm not as influenced by my surroundings because I feel shut off from what's around me. Probably, when closed off, I'm  out of touch with my feelings.
And of course, our unconscious mind can be affected by what's around us even if we're not aware of it, so there's that.

This reminds me very much of my experiences in VR with the headset where everything feels amazingly real as if you're actually there. Of course, if I think back on my VR travels I know I wasn't really there, but damn if it doesn't feel like I really did go on that African safari, or climb that big mountain.

So that's to say, what we know and what we feel when encountering that non-human avatar can be very different.
 

[Luna Bliss]

Everything talks to you if you choose to listen, and don't expect it to communicate just like humans do.

[Ramen Jedburgh]

13 hours ago, Akane Nacht said:

Depends on what schema is running in your head when you encounter one I suppose. As you mentioned about male avatars, you had some bad experiences so that colours how you may view them. For animal/creature avatars, I've generally found them to be either 1) just wearing a costume cos they won it in a gacha, or  2) are really having fun with being a creature and throwing themselves into the part so to speak. The latter are always interesting to interact with, though they can be a little nutty.

I have an alt I use for the latter sometimes.  Like for a while I was a dolphin, just swimming around near boaters.  I left that same Avatar logged in near a public hub just there, as a tree.  I only got one comment about the tree thing though.  For a while that avatar was a BBQ Grill.

[Nick0678]

37 minutes ago, tailpa said:

I'm pretty sure gods and God alike are powerful enough to be a plant or a rock or a kitchen appliance if they please. Why would you place limits on what a benevolent kind loving creator being would be capable of creating or being? Are you sure that's right?

Cool story bro but ... God is my doG.  (i am atheist btw..)

[Chroma Starlight]

3 hours ago, Nick0678 said:

Cool story bro but ... God is my doG.  (i am atheist btw..)

[Prokofy Neva]

4 hours ago, Chroma Starlight said:

It's possible to progress from synesthesia to deeper perceptions; our "big" discovery in 2018 was that Animism in Second Life "works" the same as it does in First Life. 

I have synesthesia. And?

I'm also capable of deeper thought.

But I think you don't realize that "animism" means "attribution of a soul to plants, inanimate objects, and natural phenomena."

It doesn't mean that people wearing fur suits in SL have somehow made their inanimate costumes have souls; the people are the ones with souls, and we get that, because...they talk.

Why is this so hard?

 

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

2 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Why is this so hard?

Diversity of minds.

The desire to see human-like behaviour in other species is one of our oldest traits, there's strong evidence for it in the cave paintings. It's almost as fundamental to us as is the need to beat the bejasus out of others from time to time, there's strong evidence for that in most of the archaeological excavations. The first is probably due to a fear of loneliness, the other due to a fear of others.

[tailpa]

33 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

I have synesthesia. And?

I'm also capable of deeper thought.

But I think you don't realize that "animism" means "attribution of a soul to plants, inanimate objects, and natural phenomena."

It doesn't mean that people wearing fur suits in SL have somehow made their inanimate costumes have souls; the people are the ones with souls, and we get that, because...they talk.

Why is this so hard?

I'm excited to share with you the news: computers can stimulate your synesthesia!

Deeper perception and intuition is essential in spiritual matters; the overwhelming majority of cognition is nonverbal and well off the island of words, deep in the oceans or forests or higher plane(s) of being.

Animism is, simply, "spirit in all things." That means in everything. In light, in sound or pressure; frequency. Even in natural dynamic phenomena. Someone who studies nature might be able to explain how material matter is really the same stuff as light or energy; science has come the long way around and back to the beginning.

All creations, especially those created with love, have soul. I think of spirit itself as the raw material that negentropically and aesthetically is combined into living form over time. There's spirit in all things just like there's energy in all things, but more significant than that, there's life in all things animating them to be and to perceive. This emanates from source, beyond all creation, space, and time. 

Why is this so hard? Because some people reject metaphysics despite having no better answers to offer. Maybe also it's because some people have decided to tell themselves that talking cleverly with words is the best measure of sentience. They do this because they fear the world as it actually is: full of love, life, and light. Rather than face their fears of a loving world, they decided that it'd just be easier to exterminate all the love, life, and light on Earth. And so therefore, they've made things harder for themselves.

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by tailpa

[Profaitchikenz Haiku]

44 minutes ago, tailpa said:

Animism is, simply, "spirit in all things."

Animus, Anima, Animammal

[Krystina Ferraris]

It really depends I guess. I have been harassed by furries and humans too demanding sex in nature and seasonal sims.
I can deal with the furries, I tell them we can play doctor and nurses and I’ll to neutering them. Human males no, they don’t buy it.

I love Dinkies though they are just too cute and I’d like to adopt many ❤️