Buy Fee Change Discussion

[Arielle Popstar]

54 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Reed said early on in the thread the higher cost is needed to hire more people to fix the problems as well as to build a new viewer (hopefully), a Vulcan viewer.  

Thing is that the Lab was making enough to put a sizable investment into Sansar which has now been stopped and sold. If the amount they were making then was enough to create that platform, then they should still be making enough to hire more people to create a new viewer. At this point I have not seen any changes in the way the Lab is going to proceed that warrants investing even more in the way of fees. Still just hearing "soon". 

Personally I find it a little crazy that I actually have to pay a fee to buy the tokens that allows me to pay them upload fees as well as buy items in their world. At $1.49 it was no more then a transaction fee but at the new rates, they are making money at it, not just a bit of compensation for the actual transaction. 

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

18 hours ago, Reed Linden said:

 

Pretty much every system needed to be touched in some way or another, including (to our surprise), the Viewer itself.

 

 

18 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

 

 

In other words, watch out come next Thursday.

 

 

 

Well, apparently, we do not need to wait until next Thursday to start finding problems. 
Since "pretty much every system needed to be touched in some way or another", it appears that some things are already hosed.

Shortly after this thread was started, I put in a new Limit Buy order.  This morning, I decided to cancel it in order to modify the amounts. However, when it refunded the money for the transaction back to my USD Balance, it only refunded $1.00 of the $1.49 transaction fee.

 

So now I need to leave everything exactly as it is, in order for LL to look at it on Monday --- because Billing Support is only Mon-Fri and they don't provide Billing Support via Live Chat (not that that is even working worth a damn right now anyway - can't actually get a live agent on their no matter what I type in).

 

I'd advise careful scrutiny of everything that you do right now that is L$ or US $ related.

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[Rowan Amore]

As Linden Lab was acquired by an investment group more interested in Tilia, is it really much of a surprise that there is a fee increase?   I'm more surprised that they didn't increase everything across the board.  Not to say they won't be doing so in the near future but what they have increased seems to spread things out rather than just hitting one group (land own tier increases or an increase in premium membership fees).

[Drake1 Nightfire]

57 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

While I agree with you Orwar, I just cannot see SL would have had the ability to continue further into the 21st without a new viewer and that is going to cost money.  The time was due and I hope it comes to fruition.

However, some of us cannot afford GPU's at this time due to crazy people conflating the market, let alone any second-hand GPU could be garbage and be blown out.

For some of us, it's a take it slow time. 

I also don't want to spend money on a new GPU at this time until I know what the new specs for a new viewer are going to be.  

All-in-all though, I've heard about inflation happening in real life.  It is the worst time for inflation with fragile economies due to COVID.  I mean we may see banks are bankrupt and collapse again.  

It's a thought of Western society that entertainment and relaxation are necessary for our well being and good mental health.  I agree but some times things go and up and down like a roller coaster when it comes to affording what is considered entertainment.  I plan to take it slow here as I'm kind of out because of EEP and flame wars for GPU's due to bitcoin mania.  I'm going to go on Coffee Pancake's Catznip viewer.  Today I should get it downloaded as I had rl stuff this week.  But, during the Great Recession, people had to cut back.  President Obama even addressed the nation that it was a time to tighten our belts, meaning curtail excess spending and entertainment is usually the first to go.

They have been talking about Vulkan graphics for years, with nothing coming of it. I wouldn't expect a brand new viewer anytime soon. I can't see them making a viewer that wont work with current specs. That would kill off the lower end users. 

There are lower end GPUs for sale that will work just fine with SL. They aren't crazy priced. You asked about them in another thread and were given several options. 

Wrong.. Just wrong.. Entertainment is the LAST thing to go when spending needs to be cut. Without entertainment people go stir crazy. Cabin Fever is a thing. Why do you think Disney+, Discovery+, Netflix, Hulu and all the other streaming services had huge uptick in memberships? Disney+ website was inaccessible for days when it was first announced due to the sheer number of people that wanted to sign up. And most of them are raising prices. And NOT losing members. 

Clothing, higher cost foods, Gym memberships, vacations and the like are all cut before entertainment. 

Again though.. This fee hike is poorly timed. Especially for US users. The rest of the world is getting monthly stipends from their governments while we have gotten a pittance from ours.

 

[FairreLilette]

24 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Personally I find it a little crazy that I actually have to pay a fee to buy the tokens that allows me to pay them upload fees as well as buy items in their world. At $1.49 it was no more then a transaction fee but at the new rates, they are making money at it, not just a bit of compensation for the actual transaction. 

The majority of those tokens you buy go to creators wallets though not the Lab or Lindens.  

As for me, I buy extra lindens during mega sale times and it's usually with the groups I like and have, so I save way more than an extra 1.49 to 3 dollars may cost me in fees.

It's Saturday Sale time and Happy Weekend Sale time.  I use the sales, plus I make my own stuff quite a lot which costs me a 10 linden fee to upload a new color or new tattoo which is very easy to make.  

There are ways to make SL more affordable.  Lots of ways.  

[Arielle Popstar]

1 minute ago, FairreLilette said:

The majority of those tokens you buy go to creators wallets though not the Lab or Lindens.  

 

And those creators rent or buy regions to support their product sales. I suspect a good percentage of those L$ eventually get back to the Linden coffers in one way or another.

[FairreLilette]

3 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

They have been talking about Vulkan graphics for years, with nothing coming of it. I wouldn't expect a brand new viewer anytime soon. I can't see them making a viewer that wont work with current specs. That would kill off the lower end users. 

There are lower end GPUs for sale that will work just fine with SL. They aren't crazy priced. You asked about them in another thread and were given several options. 

Wrong.. Just wrong.. Entertainment is the LAST thing to go when spending needs to be cut. Without entertainment people go stir crazy. Cabin Fever is a thing. Why do you think Disney+, Discovery+, Netflix, Hulu and all the other streaming services had huge uptick in memberships? Disney+ website was inaccessible for days when it was first announced due to the sheer number of people that wanted to sign up. And most of them are raising prices. And NOT losing members. 

Clothing, higher cost foods, Gym memberships, vacations and the like are all cut before entertainment. 

Again though.. This fee hike is poorly timed. Especially for US users. The rest of the world is getting monthly stipends from their governments while we have gotten a pittance from ours.

 

It depends.  I lived through The Great Recession.  We had lots of coupons sent to us which helped a family of 3 with a mortgage at that time.  However, we never cut on clothes.  People get creative and may start to use bulk shopping as a way to free up some dollars.  It all depends on one's situation.  But, I'd say entertainment was cut during The Great Recession.  We went to a lot of free or more inexpensive places - the beach for one.  

[FairreLilette]

22 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

And those creators rent or buy regions to support their product sales. I suspect a good percentage of those L$ eventually get back to the Linden coffers in one way or another.

This is like the choir preaching to one another that our church now wants us to pay more for the new building they want so they can expand.  Well, that happened to my family in real life.  Our church wanted to expand and wanted more money so they could expand.  So, it was up to each person to decide what to do.  My family left that church as my husband was really the one who was being pressured for more money.   Anyhow, I'm not LL nor a Linden, so I cannot know how much it is going to cost to hire new people or to build a new viewer.  A company that is leveraged cannot always come up with all the money in order to expand, grow or develop.  

 

31 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

They have been talking about Vulkan graphics for years, with nothing coming of it. I wouldn't expect a brand new viewer anytime soon. I can't see them making a viewer that wont work with current specs. That would kill off the lower end users. 

There are lower end GPUs for sale that will work just fine with SL. They aren't crazy priced. You asked about them in another thread and were given several options. 

I'd still like some official specs here.  

[Tinsley Starlight]

12 hours ago, JamesBoogieman said:

Here's the problem though it's gonna be way more than two bucks for some transactions under the new buyer fee structure of 7.5% which is egregiously high for any business transaction.

Thats why I just bought before the change has happened.  I dont mind the 9.99 so much ill just byuy 4 x a year instead of 12 x a year thereby eliminating 8 9.99 payments.

[RunawayBunny]

46 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

The majority of those tokens you buy go to creators wallets though not the Lab or Lindens.  

There is more than LL's commission paypal (or skrill) and government taxes also you will probably use marketplace and probably have a SIM for your store.

27 USD market place AD fee (monthly calculated with L$ 240 / USD 1) for per product, marketplace sale 10% commission per sale.  120 USD sim rental (Homestead SIM monthly).

Selling L$ in lindex 3.50% fee.

Transferring funds to your account USD 5 + 5% (Tilia) + 2% (or 4% paypal skrill commission more if you are not in USA due exchange ratio) + 15% government income fee (might be different for you).

Here I made a summary for you

[Paul Hexem]

3 hours ago, bigmoe Whitfield said:

for those wanting homesteads directly,  I suspect, the would be priced almost the same as a normal sim would be.    Jack and the team had to change how these were being handled back in the day,  it physically ran out servers for it,  aws they can spin up instances, but if they have more instances than money to pay for the instances,  can you see what the result would be?  I can.

They keep bragging that everything about AWS means starting and stopping new instances, and in this case, probably just little VM instances, is much much easier. The whole "scalability" thing they keep repeating.

That makes it easier and less expensive to offer them, not more.

Not to mention, land in SL is still already overpriced by far too much. Do a quick search- you can rent an entire dedicated, physical box for under $100 USD a month. Get up to $220, and the hardware on that box can support half a dozen full regions.

[FairreLilette]

14 minutes ago, RunawayBunny said:

There is more than LL's commission paypal (or skrill) and government taxes also you will probably use marketplace and probably have a SIM for your store.

27 USD market place AD fee (monthly calculated with L$ 240 / USD 1) for per product, marketplace sale 10% commission per sale.  120 USD sim rental (Homestead SIM monthly).

Selling L$ in lindex 3.50% fee.

Transferring funds to your account USD 5 + 5% (Tilia) + 2% (or 4% paypal skrill commission more if you are not in USA due exchange ratio) + 15% government income fee (might be different for you).

Here I made a summary for you

Some of those are luxuries.  I have a MP store also and three inworld shops of my own.  I do not pay for ads on MP, so I only pay the 10% commission for MP sales.  I also do not rent a homestead for inworld stuff, I have three small store rentals that currently ad up to a total of 3300 lindens a month which isn't even $20 dollars a month, and part of one of my stores is also a club for fun.  People could put demos on MP of furniture as I have done with some to cut down the cost of needing inworld rentals.  

Everything is subjective.  

Fees is a real income a leveraged company can count on to go forward and expand.  That's how I see it anyways.  It is a fee that they can count on in order to expand, hire and build a new viewer. 

Edited April 17, 2021 by FairreLilette

[Drake1 Nightfire]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

I'd still like some official specs here.  

As would we all, but you wont see any as they arent currently working on a new viewer. They cant give specs on something they arent making.

[Alwin Alcott]

@Reed Lindenis Tillia now stepping down from their absurd 20% addition exchange rate for non USA customers ?... otherwise it starts to look very ugly and greedy to your customers.
just as example
buing 2500 L$ costs USD 11.92 .. converting to € 11 .07 ... while the international exchange rate would be a sum of € 9.18 ... a difference of over 20%

[RunawayBunny]

51 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Fees is a real income a leveraged company can count on to go forward and expand.  That's how I see it anyways.  It is a fee that they can count on in order to expand, hire and build a new viewer. 

I am not saying anything against LL fees / commission.. ofc they will take commission for their platform even if they provide or not provide any improvement.. its how business works.

I am simply showing your personal preference does not reflect reality. Unless you are doing it as hobby and not expecting any income. Market place already enough competitive with those "subjective preferences (ads)" there is not much any designer can do without ads, their product will be buried in marketplace and only discovered by a few lucky residents.

Edited April 17, 2021 by RunawayBunny

[FairreLilette]

11 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

As would we all, but you wont see any as they arent currently working on a new viewer. They cant give specs on something they arent making.

I didn't say they are working on it right now; and, as a matter of fact, I have no idea when so for all I know it could be now.  I will put a message through to LL about it and see if I get a response.  That is plan A.  I'd like to see if I get a response to my specs question.  At least I'd know I tried.  

[FairreLilette]

4 minutes ago, RunawayBunny said:

I am not saying anything against LL fees / commission.. ofc they will take commission for their platform even if they provide or not provide any improvement.. its how business works.

I am simply showing your personal preference does not reflect reality. Unless you are doing it as hobby and not expecting any income. Market place already enough competitive with those "subjective preferences (ads)" there is not much any designer can do without ads, their product will be buried in marketplace and only discovered by a few lucky residents.

Regardless, people will have subjective experiences with SL in toto.  

As far as us griping at each other about fees, Reed Linden said to send your questions to LL because we are like the choir griping at each other that the church now wants money for a new better building that the church does not have the money to pay for by itself.  We all have to figure out how to cut corners here and afford things in a COVID world now.  We aren't even post-COVID world which could be rather ugly.  

[Rowan Amore]

@RunawayBunnyI think the phrase is preaching to the choir.  To (pointlessly) try to convince a person or group to accept an opinion that they already agree with.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

46 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I didn't say they are working on it right now; and, as a matter of fact, I have no idea when so for all I know it could be now.  I will put a message through to LL about it and see if I get a response.  That is plan A.  I'd like to see if I get a response to my specs question.  At least I'd know I tried.  

Specs about what?

[Arielle Popstar]

1 hour ago, Alwin Alcott said:

@Reed Lindenis Tillia now stepping down from their absurd 20% addition exchange rate for non USA customers ?... otherwise it starts to look very ugly and greedy to your customers.
just as example
buing 2500 L$ costs USD 11.92 .. converting to € 11 .07 ... while the international exchange rate would be a sum of € 9.18 ... a difference of over 20%

Oh is there a way to check their exchange rate before the transaction??

[Alwin Alcott]

8 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Oh is there a way to check their exchange rate before the transaction??

you can see the totals just before you click the definitive buy ( and if you close the window the order won't proceed)

[Ati Thei]

3 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

As Linden Lab was acquired by an investment group more interested in Tilia, is it really much of a surprise that there is a fee increase?   I'm more surprised that they didn't increase everything across the board.  Not to say they won't be doing so in the near future but what they have increased seems to spread things out rather than just hitting one group (land own tier increases or an increase in premium membership fees).

They will do another transaction fee increase next year. And something else. Slowly over time. It's the boiling frog fable.

Before the acquisition, LL repeatedly increased all fees trying to bump the revenues and increase the market value of the company before they sell it.

What I find hilarious is the claim they are "committed to reinvesting all of that revenue back into Second Life". So basically the investment company is not going to make anything off SL?  Either they are good samaritans or trying to increase the value of SL again and sell it for profit.

[FairreLilette]

41 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

@RunawayBunnyI think the phrase is preaching to the choir.  To (pointlessly) try to convince a person or group to accept an opinion that they already agree with.

Yeah that...I don't believe anyone here wants to see this effect someone so much they have to leave.

But, also Reed Linden said he was out (of this discussion) for the weekend and I don't think there are any other Linden's here, so it's just us residents.  I believe Reed Linden also said, send any questions or concern's to LL about this.  

[JennyD Cloud]

All i'm going to say is byeeee  I buy 30k L per week plus i pay for premium that will be an extra $40 per month for me ( i have to buy weekly that's RL for you)... well not anymore but don't worry i'm sure the extra money you make from everyone else will cover what you don't get from me anymore.

Personally i think this is disgusting because you are targeting those who spend the most money and will actually encourage them to spend less or leave this is especially insulting for premium members

Edited April 17, 2021 by JennyD Cloud

[Drake1 Nightfire]

Why are so many of you buying $L weekly? Save up and buy once a month. I mean, even before the hike i only bought once a month.