World Map

[Coffee Pancake]

1 hour ago, TT120 said:

They are obviously not working on the problem

They absolutely are working on it. It came up at todays TPV developer meeting and is proving to be a complex nut to crack - the intent as we understand is to actually fix the problem and end up with a better world map, not paper over the cracks.

As things are progressing, it will not require an updated viewer, which is good news.

[TT120]

7 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

They absolutely are working on it. It came up at todays TPV developer meeting and is proving to be a complex nut to crack - the intent as we understand is to actually fix the problem and end up with a better world map, not paper over the cracks.

As things are progressing, it will not require an updated viewer, which is good news.

They "say" they are working on it but It's been 6 months.  I'm sorry but that is ridiculous.  Any programmer could have fixed this 3 times by now.    They are blowing smoke up our butts.  

[Eddy Ofarrel]

3 hours ago, Nika Talaj said:

Oh, SO informative! 

In one month, I fully expect to hear that the fruit of LL's long labor (?) on this problem is actually just a slight expansion of the map API, and they are eliminating the World Map and giving the Firestorm team, Henri Beauchamp, Chaser Zaks and Eddy OFarrel each $1.50 to develop a client-side or web app "solution". 

I'm sure it will be better than nothing, but probably not a true replacement for the world map, and will demand more from users' machines.  Heck, at present I avoid even having a browser up while running SL, both apps being such memory hogs.

(Of course I'm joking.  Or am I?)

If they did get rid of the existing system, we'd all be stuffed - the World Map in Firestorm (and I believe all other viewers including the official one) actually uses the same map tile images as I'm using from the Map API (from a slightly different server URL for some reason, but it's serving the exact same images with the same filenames)

I actually had a bit of a "eureka" moment a few days ago when I realised this, as I thought it meant it would be possible to replace the server URL with mine (which now provides proper zoomed-out map tiles up to level 3) in Firestorm's debug settings, and thereby have the zoomable map working again within the native Firestorm World Map, but alas, it's not that simple. The map server URL does actually appear in two different debug settings in Firestorm, but one just shows the current URL that it's using (so trying to change it does nothing at all), and the other is only used as a default/fallback if the grid server doesn't tell it a URL to use while connecting/logging in (which it does). So effectively the URL given by SL servers takes precedence over everything else. I guess it would still be possible by actually modifying the viewer code though (and maybe other third-party viewers might already handle it differently)

[arabellajones]

14 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

They absolutely are working on it. It came up at todays TPV developer meeting and is proving to be a complex nut to crack - the intent as we understand is to actually fix the problem and end up with a better world map, not paper over the cracks.

As things are progressing, it will not require an updated viewer, which is good news.

They're really not very good at communicating if they can only do it this way.

[Coffee Pancake]

[Qie Niangao]

"World Map? Aw crap, all this time I've been working on world hunger!"

[Lucia Nightfire]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

"World Map? Aw crap, all this time I've been working on world hunger!"

That will be remedied before World Map tiles, so at least something good will come out this.

[Karl Herber]

On 4/2/2021 at 7:51 PM, arabellajones said:

We have several legacy map tiles showing in the new "chalet" district, That's the new-build linking Satori and Bellisseria. If you use the viewer map, "Yeeowler" region is at the southern tip of Satori, and the chain of no-maptile regions runs off to the West. They are named. They have remarkably well-developed visible landscape and Parcel Boundaries show on the Firestorm minimap.

"Buffalo Springs" is a false maptile, It has a part of the wide E-W water channel which runs through the new section. The other two I know of are "Duncan's Brea" and "Geppetto". 

Maptiles reappear at "Something Fishy" which is the other end of the water channel, on the edge of the "Stilt" themed district. Some of the no-maptile regions already have residents. You'd expect those places to have working maptiles. The gaps between the "Stilt" regions and the rest of Bellisseria anr still no-maptile. Some have had scenery for a long time, and I would expect the railroad terminal to have better than a placeholder-name.

The false maptiles have me thinking that the fix to the map is not as near as we were beginning to hope.

This is the scenery in Fiddlesticks. I'm in the helicopter. I think some scenery elements are still incomplete.

 

You flew right over me while I was sailing down that river . I was looking for boat rez points, and it seems there are only two; one in the middle at Running Bear and one at the north end in Buffalo Springs. There is no rez point at the southern end of the river but there is one nearby in the Stilts at Tiki Twilight.

A couple of things bother me about this whole map issue. 

First, the person apparently working on it previously was Oz, who is no longer employed by the Lab. Second, now that a resident (thanks @Eddy Ofarrel) has stepped up to the plate, makes me wonder if LL will not even bother trying any more, since we have a (sort of) alternative. And the in-viewer map will either be left as it is, or quietly removed altogether with the response "You don't need our map any more. Go and use Eddy's map instead".

I wonder if it's possible for an avatar or bot to take aerial snapshots of regions that are missing from the map (Chalet regions in particular) that can be added to Eddy's map? I tried to make one yesterday but struggled to fit a whole region on-screen at once.

[Aishagain]

2 hours ago, Karly Kiyori said:

First, the person apparently working on it previously was Oz, who is no longer employed by the Lab.

WOT? Oz is no longer working at LL?  Wow, I had not heard that!

[Jaylinbridges]

55 minutes ago, Aishagain said:

WOT? Oz is no longer working at LL?  Wow, I had not heard that!

https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/468184-farewell-soon/

You need to get out more. Oz's going away party was Friday Feb 26, and was televised live on youtube SL TV.

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by Jaylinbridges

[Aishagain]

How on earth I managed to miss this is utterly baffling me, I am amazed (though obviously happy that Oz will no doubt be getting out a LOT more than I obviously do!).

[Eddy Ofarrel]

15 hours ago, Karly Kiyori said:

First, the person apparently working on it previously was Oz, who is no longer employed by the Lab. Second, now that a resident (thanks @Eddy Ofarrel) has stepped up to the plate, makes me wonder if LL will not even bother trying any more, since we have a (sort of) alternative. And the in-viewer map will either be left as it is, or quietly removed altogether with the response "You don't need our map any more. Go and use Eddy's map instead".

Wow, I hadn't realised that either (I mean, I don't really keep up with what's happening with the Lindens anyway, but had noticed that Oz was the only one who had replied in this thread). From what he said here though, I don't think he was the actual developer working on it.

I personally don't think they'll do that. If anything, I think the opposite is more likely - particularly since they put out that "update" a few days ago saying they're still working on it, I think they've probably stepped things up a gear since seeing someone else is doing something, and they're probably going to release the new updated/fully zoomable map tiles *just* as I finish all the bits I'm working on now, making mine mostly redundant and wasting all the hours of time I've been putting into it over the last few days lol

15 hours ago, Karly Kiyori said:

I wonder if it's possible for an avatar or bot to take aerial snapshots of regions that are missing from the map (Chalet regions in particular) that can be added to Eddy's map? I tried to make one yesterday but struggled to fit a whole region on-screen at once.

I've been wondering that too. They'd probably look quite different from the existing map tiles (some better, perhaps some worse) but at least it'd be something. I don't think it's something I'd be able to implement personally, but perhaps if someone who has experience with the viewer code/making bots etc would like to work with me...?

Although I have just thought of a way that an avatar (i.e. actual person) might be able to do it with some automated assistance, but even then it would still require quite a bit of manual work for each region, so it would be better if a specialised bot-type-thing could do it.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Eddy Ofarrel

[Mollymews]

4 hours ago, Eddy Ofarrel said:

they're probably going to release the new updated/fully zoomable map tiles *just* as I finish all the bits I'm working on now, making mine mostly redundant and wasting all the hours of time I've been putting into it over the last few days

Eddy you have done a good thing for all the people who depend on a working world map, and your effort is always going to be appreciated by those who you have helped over this time

[animats]

13 hours ago, Eddy Ofarrel said:

I think they've probably stepped things up a gear since seeing someone else is doing something, and they're probably going to release the new updated/fully zoomable map tiles *just* as I finish all the bits I'm working on now, making mine mostly redundant and wasting all the hours of time I've been putting into it over the last few days lol

Thanks for doing that.

 

[Ardy Lay]

Once upon a time, someone predicted that Linden Lab would stop development of Second Life Viewer because "more people use third party viewers than Linden's own viewer."  Hasn't happened yet.

I expect Linden Lab will restore World Map function.  I have no clue what's taking so long.  We have been told that it was highly dependent upon the service system architecture and that has been change dramatically.

@Eddy OfarrelI have one suggestion:  Metadata overlays

If you can make your product better than LL's World Map then you may retain / gain users.  Macro-overlays with things like continent names linked to the SL Wiki might be interesting.  Shipping routes, race circuits, nautical and aeronautical navigation tools might be interesting.  Some have asked for "community overlays" in the past but I am not aware of what those would be.  Oh, and maybe ensure it works in the browser embedded in the Second Life Viewer, if it doesn't already.  Something like a path-traveled and landmark plotter would interest me.

[Eddy Ofarrel]

4 hours ago, Ardy Lay said:

@Eddy OfarrelI have one suggestion:  Metadata overlays

If you can make your product better than LL's World Map then you may retain / gain users.  Macro-overlays with things like continent names linked to the SL Wiki might be interesting.  Shipping routes, race circuits, nautical and aeronautical navigation tools might be interesting.  Some have asked for "community overlays" in the past but I am not aware of what those would be.  Oh, and maybe ensure it works in the browser embedded in the Second Life Viewer, if it doesn't already.  Something like a path-traveled and landmark plotter would interest me.

...well that sounds a bit like some of the stuff I already had in mind  I just wasn't sure if that many people would be interested in that sort of thing once the standard World Map is back to its full functionality.

I'm not sure what exactly "community overlays" would be either, but it sounds like something that would allow people to create their own layers of stuff to be displayed on top of the map? That seems like it would need a lot of user interface stuff to make it work, and unfortunately I'm really quite useless at anything graphic designy/user interfacey.

[arabellajones]

7 hours ago, Eddy Ofarrel said:

I'm not sure what exactly "community overlays" would be either, but it sounds like something that would allow people to create their own layers of stuff to be displayed on top of the map?

I am not sure, but an example that comes to mind is the "Get The Freight out" game. Which has a lot of delivery and pick-up points scattered across the map. They have a routine for updates, taking effect once a week and run their own server. The current hub list is here. GTFO Hub Location List

I don't play the game much at the moment, mapping and region crossing problems, and it feels tedious at higher levels. They have ways of putting standard markers on the Linden map, but until it starts updating properly...  I am not sure whether reliable Linden updates or a third-party system is the answer.

[Ardy Lay]

18 hours ago, arabellajones said:

They have ways of putting standard markers on the Linden map

Oh!  Is that what all those GTFO signs floating around above the ground are?  I thought I was being rudely told to stay away.

I hate all that garbage on the map.

What I mean by "overlays" is something that is only activated for the person looking at the map:

• Person
• Infohub / Telehub
• Land sale
• Events - General
• Events - Moderate
• Events - Adult

Maybe an overlay could be added by providing a base URL to the data source and a toggle control to enable and disable it.

Edited April 7, 2021 by Ardy Lay

[Eddy Ofarrel]

Just a quick update for everyone: I've just finished doing a load of work on the backend of the map page. You may or may not notice a difference, but the whole thing should be a lot more efficient now, so hopefully it'll be faster in at least some cases... and as a result of that, I've also tentatively enabled another further out zoom level. Bear in mind that it will still take a while to load things at that level though (especially for areas that no one has loaded at all yet, if there are still any by this point) just because of the sheer number of individual map tiles that my server has to download and process to make it possible. I've actually also added a little loading icon in the top right corner of the page, so that you can tell whether it's still loading map tiles or there's actually nothing there.

One of the improvements is that my server now supports HTTP2, which is much better for this sort of thing, but browsers only support that over a secure connection so for that reason it will now always redirect you to https://maps.eddyofarrel.com/ if you try to load it without HTTPS.

I'm now going to have a rest/try to get some much-needed sleep before I start on the next stage of things. Do let me know if you have any issues with (or just comments on) the new upgraded system though

Edited April 8, 2021 by Eddy Ofarrel

[Mollymews]

1 hour ago, Eddy Ofarrel said:

 the next stage of things

you maybe already thinking it about, but a thing that you could sell/rent (to offset your costs) would be map pins

like a parcel owner could rent a pin and when we (the viewing person) mouse over the pin then we get a short description, a SLURL to the parcel and maybe a link to the parcel owner's web site

[Anna Nova]

@Eddy Ofarrelone thing that would be nice when the map is zoomed out is some indication if a tile has a name, rather than just being 'missing', maybe a faint outline as a placemarker.  Sort of the same as the SL Brokenmap(tm) uses the sea background for otherwise empty, but usable, regions.  I realise that this is a different case, of course.

But have your well deserved rest before you think about it!

[Eddy Ofarrel]

5 hours ago, Anna Nova said:

@Eddy Ofarrelone thing that would be nice when the map is zoomed out is some indication if a tile has a name, rather than just being 'missing', maybe a faint outline as a placemarker.  Sort of the same as the SL Brokenmap(tm) uses the sea background for otherwise empty, but usable, regions.  I realise that this is a different case, of course.

But have your well deserved rest before you think about it!

I think I'm awake again now... lol

Although struggling to understand exactly what you mean (at least the sea background bit). The way that works right now is that the whole map has a background of that colour (it's actually marked as "SL_OCEAN_COLOR" in the CSS file that comes with the Map API examples etc), so when my server generates the map tiles for other zoom levels (which obviously contain more than one region each) I've made it use that as the background colour for the image too, so that any "gaps" in the tile where there isn't a region there look the same as the rest of the empty space on the map (if a requested tile doesn't contain any regions at all then it doesn't bother generating an image, just as the SL map tile server doesn't provide any image for regions that don't/didn't exist when the map tiles last updated, so the actual map background will show through in those areas). Or at least that was the idea... for some reason, it seems like the software I'm using to generate the map tiles isn't capable of producing that exact colour in a JPEG image, so gaps in zoomed-out tiles actually look a slightly different shade from the rest of the background. I'm not sure any of this is actually relevant to what you were saying, but I just thought I'd mention it anyway lol

So do you mean some way of indicating that a region (now) exists in a particular location, even if there's no map tile for it, based on it having a name which shows when zoomed further in? If so, I have been thinking about doing something like that, but there are a couple of issues with it. One is that we now know (as people in this thread have discovered) that the SL caps server (which is where I'm getting those names on the map from) is reporting some regions as existing even if they haven't been there for years. So that means it wouldn't be entirely accurate.

I'd probably still do it anyway though, as it's the best we can do right now... but the other issue is that because each name has to be requested individually from the caps server (it has no way of requesting more than one at a time), doing that at higher zoom levels would mean a huge flood of requests to it, from each person using the map (which is why it currently stops displaying the names above zoom level 2). The next thing I'm planning to do is create a better communication system between the map page and my server, which should make all sorts of things possible, but one of the first things I'll then do with it is request the region names from my server instead, which will be able to cache them instead of having to go to the caps server every time. And then it will be able to do things like this with the information too, even at higher zoom levels

[Anna Nova]

3 hours ago, Eddy Ofarrel said:

...

So do you mean some way of indicating that a region (now) exists in a particular location, even if there's no map tile for it, based on it having a name which shows when zoomed further in? If so, I have been thinking about doing something like that, but there are a couple of issues with it. One is that we now know (as people in this thread have discovered) that the SL caps server (which is where I'm getting those names on the map from) is reporting some regions as existing even if they haven't been there for years. So that means it wouldn't be entirely accurate.

I'd probably still do it anyway though, as it's the best we can do right now... but the other issue is that because each name has to be requested individually from the caps server (it has no way of requesting more than one at a time), doing that at higher zoom levels would mean a huge flood of requests to it, from each person using the map (which is why it currently stops displaying the names above zoom level 2). The next thing I'm planning to do is create a better communication system between the map page and my server, which should make all sorts of things possible, but one of the first things I'll then do with it is request the region names from my server instead, which will be able to cache them instead of having to go to the caps server every time. And then it will be able to do things like this with the information too, even at higher zoom levels

As underlined above, yes, that's exactly what I mean.

Okay, I understand now why it's hard and 'costly'.  Thanks for taking the time to explain.

My interest as a user is knowing the geography of SL, and the higher zoom-outs of your map are extremely helpful for that.

Thanks for whatever you do with the map.  Even as it is, it's an order of magnitude better.

[TheSunTheMoon Starlight]

I like to search for land to purchase but depend on knowing it's location with regards to continents and surrounding lands/waters and since the maps stopped zooming out properly I have stopped buying land and lowered my tier so lindens are certainly losing some of my money by not fixing the maps!

[arabellajones]

I did some sailing around Sansara.

Some of the currently available map tiles are out of date again.

Some blank areas have names, and are fully accessible, not just the recently opened "Chalet" area that completes the link to Satori. Some of the names are placeholders. I am sometimes seeing blatantly out-of-date map tiles in that particular area

The inference is that generating/updating of the map tiles is still not working.