Why are mesh products no mod?

[FairreLilette]

On 11/6/2020 at 6:59 PM, Wulfie Reanimator said:

99% of the time it's very easy to tell whether a script is tinting the texture or swapping the texture altogether. A color tint is instant (after script lag), but a texture swap is noticeable because the new texture needs to be downloaded and you'll visibly see the grey/blurry texture as it loads. The exception is when there are multiple variants within the same texture, and the script is simply changing the offsets, which is also instant.

Okay, this is very interesting info.  Look for the gray but if it's already cached it could change colors very quickly.  

Next, this item I am about to show could actually use a color tint change as it would look better, imo.  The white parts of her textures show up like a sore thumb but the texture is changing as it greys a bit before changing.  But, I don't like this much white in my clothing.  It's too much.  And, all her clothes are like that...big white parts showing up.   I had bought a top from a company I had never bought before about a month ago and had the same problem - big white parts sticking out like a sore thumb.  I like the tinted clothes better.  But, sometimes it just depends on the texture and how the texture was made for the white one too.   But, why did I buy that one top with the big white parts showing, it was Medieval and a rarer top but I would not recommend as well constructed because of the ginormous white parts looking, frankly, not good.  

Edited November 9, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

Okay, this is very interesting info.  Perhaps the biggest name in SL for women's clothes the colors change instantly.  So, I'm guessing it is an RGB tinter used for that company.  

Which one? I can easily double-check.

Edit: Oh, Blueberry has always (and still does) use texture swaps for clothing. Not sure what product you were looking at.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[FairreLilette]

2 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Which one? I can easily double-check.

 

@Wulfie Reanimator sent you an IM.  

 

EDIT:  nm.

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by FairreLilette

[FairreLilette]

2 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Edit: Oh, Blueberry has always (and still does) use texture swaps for clothing. Not sure what product you were looking at.

Yeah, I corrected my post above...look for the gray but if it's something you already own, textures are already cached.  I remember now, Blueberry takes a while to load their textures.  It actually was another name, anyhow I had mixed up.   

Too much white in a texture is a turn-off for me.  I have all of about two items with those kind of white big blotchy textures in the midst of a color item.  I don't care for items textured that way as it's not even an ombre item.

Mod would help.  Yep.  

Edited November 9, 2020 by FairreLilette

[AnonymousMike]

My thing is no mod = you cant add scripts for alpha to any of it, which blows....

 

so im forced to make prims to wear on the side that alpha out their bad designs...

Edited November 9, 2020 by AnonymousMike

[AnonymousMike]

Unless I am doing something completely wrong, but I have a Sig Gianni body, and it has an auto hide script, I am forced to drop the script into a prim, run the hud hide the parts that poke, then pick up teh prim, i set it transparent and put it in the folder the clothing is in, then I add it as a hud so its not floating around me.   Maybe theres another way to do it I am not aware of...?

 

 

Sorry I realize this sidetracks the topic at hand

Edited November 9, 2020 by AnonymousMike

[Maitimo]

8 hours ago, AnonymousMike said:

Unless I am doing something completely wrong, but I have a Sig Gianni body, and it has an auto hide script, I am forced to drop the script into a prim, run the hud hide the parts that poke, then pick up teh prim, i set it transparent and put it in the folder the clothing is in, then I add it as a hud so its not floating around me.   Maybe theres another way to do it I am not aware of...?

This sounds the best way actually, especially the part about wearing it as a hud. Do you need to wear it all the time? If so, you can move it out of screen; go into edit mode and select it. Then scroll back on your mouse scroll wheel and you can slide the hud out of the screen. So when you wear the outfit, the autohide prim is basically just "fire and forget", and it doesn't get in your way.

For me though, the main reason for wanting/needing clothes to be mod is to be able to make them alpha-masked instead of alpha blended. Alpha-blended clothes clash with long hair making big invisible patches.

You can't switch the hair to masked because it looks terrible but there is seriously no reason for clothes to be set to blended, unless they are lacy lingerie. And yet, nearly every clothing maker does it and it makes me want to set them all on fire.

Alpha-blend + no mod is a hard no-sale for me. But Alpha-masked + no-mod is not.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Maitimo

[Marianne Little]

1 hour ago, Maitimo said:

This sounds the best way actually, especially the part about wearing it as a hud. Do you need to wear it all the time? If so, you can move it out of screen; go into edit mode and select it. Then scroll back on your mouse scroll wheel and you can slide the hud out of the screen. So when you wear the outfit, the autohide prim is basically just "fire and forget", and it doesn't get in your way.

For me though, the main reason for wanting/needing clothes to be mod is to be able to make them alpha-masked instead of alpha blended. Alpha-blended clothes clash with long hair making big invisible patches.

You can't switch the hair to masked because it looks terrible but there is seriously no reason for clothes to be set to blended, unless they are lacy lingerie. And yet, nearly every clothing maker does it and it makes me want to set them all on fire.

Alpha-blend + no mod is a hard no-sale for me. But Alpha-masked + no-mod is not.

Yes, why should anyone need Alpha blending unless it is lace or small cutouts... I have this issue too, and how easy is it to fix, if it is mod!

I am not so cheap that I buy one set of clothing in white and tint it! No, tinting is for tweaking so I like them better. Designers can't set no mod and "teal" on one jacket and the other designer has "teal" on a set of shoes, and because it is both teal it is a match? Oh no. One of the colors usually need a bit of tweaking so they match. I can add a drop more red to a red preset color if I want it stronger, or a drop blue to make it a more colder red

[AnonymousMike]

2 hours ago, Maitimo said:

This sounds the best way actually, especially the part about wearing it as a hud. Do you need to wear it all the time? If so, you can move it out of screen; go into edit mode and select it. Then scroll back on your mouse scroll wheel and you can slide the hud out of the screen. So when you wear the outfit, the autohide prim is basically just "fire and forget", and it doesn't get in your way.

I set the prim as transparent and wear it as bottom left. works rather well, and it shows up if i show hidden prims so i know its on.  if you take it off the alphas you set go away so i need it to stay on.  

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Maitimo said:

For me though, the main reason for wanting/needing clothes to be mod is to be able to make them alpha-masked instead of alpha blended. Alpha-blended clothes clash with long hair making big invisible patches.

You can't switch the hair to masked because it looks terrible but there is seriously no reason for clothes to be set to blended, unless they are lacy lingerie. And yet, nearly every clothing maker does it and it makes me want to set them all on fire.

Alpha-blend + no mod is a hard no-sale for me. But Alpha-masked + no-mod is not.

and this would be another reason, not so much for me as im a dude with short hair but still it makes sense.

[Pussycat Catnap]

On 11/6/2020 at 4:38 PM, Maitimo said:

I honestly think that 99% of the reason people don't make modifyable mesh is because they want you to buy the fatpack instead of just buying the white or grey one and tinting it.

Honestly this is why I near stopped buying from major brands about two years back (I get maybe 1 or 2 items a year to fill in something like "need that boot style") and started buying full perms kits only.

Full perm kits are priced - often cheaper than "fatpacks"... and Gimp is free.

For my furry look on the other hand, I do buy from furry merchants because that stuff is mod. And again... Gimp is free.

 

 

[LittleMe Jewell]

On 11/6/2020 at 5:38 PM, Maitimo said:

I honestly think that 99% of the reason people don't make modifyable mesh is because they want you to buy the fatpack instead of just buying the white or grey one and tinting it.

In many ways, at least for women's clothing, that has always been the case.  Even in the Flexi days, only the flexi parts of outfits were modifiable and the system layer parts were not.

[Maitimo]

5 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Honestly this is why I near stopped buying from major brands about two years back (I get maybe 1 or 2 items a year to fill in something like "need that boot style") and started buying full perms kits only.

Full perm kits are priced - often cheaper than "fatpacks"... and Gimp is free.

I do this a lot, and at least 50% of the time I'm wearing something I textured myself from a full perm kit. Except jeans, because I am hopeless at making a decent denim texture.

It's harder now with Petite because there's not much available fullperm yet, but I have a couple of tops and a bra (which is doubling as a bikini top), and I'm sure there'll be more content soon enough.

[Ultima Cloud]

On 11/9/2020 at 1:22 PM, Pussycat Catnap said:

Honestly this is why I near stopped buying from major brands about two years back (I get maybe 1 or 2 items a year to fill in something like "need that boot style") and started buying full perms kits only.

Full perm kits are priced - often cheaper than "fatpacks"... and Gimp is free.

For my furry look on the other hand, I do buy from furry merchants because that stuff is mod. And again... Gimp is free.

 

 

Most of the big brands I know go mod and if they didn't it's simply because they didn't think to uncheck that box. They also use their own textures and have no reason to hide the color box because they don't use it to tint their textures. I think the only big brands I can think of off the top of my head that are exclusively no-mod for whatever reason are Blueberry and FashionNatic. But you can tell by the quality of their stuff that the do not use in-game tints. 

Honestly, I wish SL would take the color box off the mod/no-mod altogether. It just seems like a lot of lesser skilled creators are just hiding the fact they are essentially selling a single product for the price of a fatpack. I wouldn't mind paying an extra 100-200L for a hud to be included that makes it more convenient for me to change colors but I most certainly will never pay 5 to 10 times the price of one for that ability.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Ultimo Constantineau

[Ultima Cloud]

On 11/9/2020 at 1:31 PM, LittleMe Jewell said:

In many ways, at least for women's clothing, that has always been the case.  Even in the Flexi days, only the flexi parts of outfits were modifiable and the system layer parts were not.

Flexi was a different time when mesh wasn't yet prevalent and things were made mostly of prims. In the case of prims no-mod absolutely protected them from being copied since it hid the information in the objects tab. Otherwise people could just use that information to recreate the prim. Now that information under that tab is useless for mesh as it will not help to recreate it.

[LittleMe Jewell]

1 hour ago, Ultimo Constantineau said:

Flexi was a different time when mesh wasn't yet prevalent and things were made mostly of prims. In the case of prims no-mod absolutely protected them from being copied since it hid the information in the objects tab. Otherwise people could just use that information to recreate the prim. Now that information under that tab is useless for mesh as it will not help to recreate it.

Except that the Flexi parts were modifiable - because we needed to modify to get the fit right.  It was primarily the system layer parts that were no-modify - usually only because they didn't want the customer changing the texture in any way.

[Ultima Cloud]

6 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Except that the Flexi parts were modifiable - because we needed to modify to get the fit right.  It was primarily the system layer parts that were no-modify - usually only because they didn't want the customer changing the texture in any way.

It had little to do with the texture and mostly to do with the fact people could read the data in the objects tab and make a copy from that data if it were no-mod. Mod hides that information. Also, do you mean sculpty? Because flexi's were also prims and could similarly be ripped off for exposing that information.

[LittleMe Jewell]

6 minutes ago, Ultimo Constantineau said:

It had little to do with the texture and mostly to do with the fact people could read the data in the objects tab and make a copy from that data if it were no-mod. Mod hides that information. Also, do you mean sculpty? Because flexi's were also prims and could similarly be ripped off for exposing that information.

Definitely not sculpties. 

The old flexi skirts/dresses (yes, made out of prims) - and even the new flexi skirts/dresses - are almost always modify. They pretty much have to be in order for us to properly fit them to our body.  Yes, this allows for people to get the Object info, but the creators went ahead and made them modifiable anyway because nobody would buy them if they could not make them fit.

For the system layers, there isn't an object tab because those are not prims.  Making those no modify was primarily to prevent people from messing with the textures.

[Ultima Cloud]

30 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Definitely not sculpties. 

The old flexi skirts/dresses (yes, made out of prims) - and even the new flexi skirts/dresses - are almost always modify. They pretty much have to be in order for us to properly fit them to our body.  Yes, this allows for people to get the Object info, but the creators went ahead and made them modifiable anyway because nobody would buy them if they could not make them fit.

For the system layers, there isn't an object tab because those are not prims.  Making those no modify was primarily to prevent people from messing with the textures.

Okay thanks I understand now. I just don't get why they would care about people messing with the texture layer. As leaving it mod wouldn't allow someone to download or rip the texture. I want to mess with the texture layer. That's actually the whole point to me making this thread lol.

[Luna Bliss]

I make them all no-mod just in case a Trumpie gets ahold of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Leffe Levenque]

On 11/7/2020 at 8:58 PM, FairreLilette said:

The "why"...I think it comes down to money being a factor.  I searched and found an old thread on this from 2016, one creator said it was in part due to money.  As to additional reasons, I don't know as I think the main reason is to avoid having people buy just the white one and tinting it themselves, thus creator's lose money.  Why do you think many have no mod items?

Here is the thread and a quote:

"And lastly, it's about dollars. If I know I can sell a red version of this shirt, that's another product and future sales I can make. That's not to condemn designers who include colour or texture changing abilities; it just means they are using different sales tactics."

 

still can sell fatpacks mod, might be an incentive to buy fatpacks, it could at least for me. So if it'"s a money thing, there's a tip for you no mod sellers. If you like modfiable stuff, com shop at my place

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

On 11/6/2020 at 8:40 PM, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

If I got that from the creator I'd kindly tell him/her I won't be buying future products from them and let others know too.

That sounds an awful lot like slander/libel. You would be wise not to slander other users because your feelings are hurt, as that can be a ToS violation.

As for "but why no-mod," I have spoken about this before and set off a bunch of people for it.

Modify permissions have nothing to do with copybotting. It's about creators not wanting people to alter their work. That's all it is. As a creator, I don't want people altering my work. I do not want people recolouring the clothing I sell because I am selling my ability to make textures and do not want people making my work look like garbage by recolouring all of it. That is why I might sell something as no-modify. That is my choice and my right as a creator. People who have a problem with that can go over there, because I don't care to get into this fight anymore. In reality, if someone wants a minor change to something, I'd probably just do it. But when people get sanctimonious about it and demand that I do this or that for them, I no longer care what they think. And when they start slandering me or others for hurting their feelings, I care even less.

So, if you want modifiable clothing, you are welcome to make it yourself.

[Rowan Amore]

21 minutes ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

That sounds an awful lot like slander/libel. You would be wise not to slander other users because your feelings are hurt, as that can be a ToS violation.

Pretty sure stating your opinion on a product/creator is NOT slander or no one would be allowed to give a bad review.

Slander is making a false statement.  Opinions are opinions not factual statements.  

Edited February 4, 2021 by RowanMinx

[LittleMe Jewell]

22 minutes ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

On 11/6/2020 at 8:40 PM, Kimmi Zehetbauer said:

If I got that from the creator I'd kindly tell him/her I won't be buying future products from them and let others know too.

That sounds an awful lot like slander/libel. You would be wise not to slander other users because your feelings are hurt, as that can be a ToS violation.

Definitely no TOS violation involved there.  You can pretty much say anything you want about someone else in SL as long as you aren't divulging personal information or outing their alts or things like that.  Giving others your opinion about a creator and telling them that you simply will not buy from them because they don't want anyone messing with their "art" is not slander.  Folks are totally allowed to tell everyone they know not to buy from creator XYZ for any reason at all.   Absolutely nothing slanderous about it at all.

Not to mention that slander is a RL issue - not an SL thing in any way.

Edited February 4, 2021 by LittleMe Jewell

[Paul Hexem]

2 hours ago, HarrisonMcKenzie said:

That sounds an awful lot like slander/libel. You would be wise not to slander other users because your feelings are hurt, as that can be a ToS violation.

As for "but why no-mod," I have spoken about this before and set off a bunch of people for it.

Modify permissions have nothing to do with copybotting. It's about creators not wanting people to alter their work. That's all it is. As a creator, I don't want people altering my work. I do not want people recolouring the clothing I sell because I am selling my ability to make textures and do not want people making my work look like garbage by recolouring all of it. That is why I might sell something as no-modify. That is my choice and my right as a creator. People who have a problem with that can go over there, because I don't care to get into this fight anymore. In reality, if someone wants a minor change to something, I'd probably just do it. But when people get sanctimonious about it and demand that I do this or that for them, I no longer care what they think. And when they start slandering me or others for hurting their feelings, I care even less.

So, if you want modifiable clothing, you are welcome to make it yourself.

Just my opinion here, but if your products were so perfect as to defy the need to ever be modified, you wouldn't be this defensive about it.

Anyone that thinks no one in SL can create (retexture, script, whatever) better than them, or thinks that LL will never do anything to break their product (remember invisiprims and shoes?) is naïve at best. Saying "my work is perfect any any modification you'd do to it would be garbage"? I don't even have polite words for that.

[Artorius Constantine]

On 11/6/2020 at 6:02 PM, FairreLilette said:

IF an item you bought is changing color or texture or whathaveyou, it IS mod.

No, you are 100% incorrect. If the Modify box is not enabled the item is No Modify.

Period.

Adding a script doesn't change that. Advertising items as modifiable when they are not is a great way to alienate customers and irritate people, not to mention get them (your items) pulled from the MP for false advertising of the permissions.

Edited February 4, 2021 by Artorius Constantine