Why are mesh products no mod?

[Ultima Cloud]

This is about the mesh alone and not the scripts or animations within the mesh. My understanding is the mod/no mod check box does literally nothing for mesh since, unlike with prims, the information someone could get from under the "Objects" tab would not assist anyone in recreating or duplicating it. Someone would need a copybot to rip a mesh. Something no mod does not protect against. So I am just curious why it is still used. Seems like an outdated practice.

[LittleMe Jewell]

14 minutes ago, Ultimo Constantineau said:

This is about the mesh alone and not the scripts or animations within the mesh. My understanding is the mod/no mod check box does literally nothing for mesh since, unlike with prims, the information someone could get from under the "Objects" tab would not assist anyone in recreating or duplicating it. Someone would need a copybot to rip a mesh. Something no mod does not protect against. So I am just curious why it is still used. Seems like an outdated practice.

Mostly I only see rigged mesh as no-mod and that is because you can't mod a rigged item.  

Non-rigged mesh, whether designed to be an avatar attachment or just an item to rez indoors, can be mod.  Whether or not it is pretty much depends on the creator's views.  Some are afraid of items being copied, but some truly do not want anyone to mess up their "creation".  While I do find no-mod mesh objects for sale, I think it is in the minority for rezzable objects.

Edited November 7, 2020 by LittleMe Jewell

[Ultima Cloud]

Just now, LittleMe Jewell said:

Mostly I only see rigged mesh as no-mod and that is because you can't mod a rigged item.  

Non-rigged mesh, whether designed to be an avatar attachment or just an item to rez indoors, can be mod.  Whether or not it is pretty much depends on the creator's views.  Some are afraid of items being copied, but some truly do not want anyone to mess up their "creation".

Ya I don't mean mod as in to adjust position. You can adjust position regardless of whether or not it is mod or not. Rigged mesh just snaps back to where it was.

I meant for the purpose of actually modifying the mesh such as to hide a face so that to fit it with another outfit. I notice some vendors like Asteroidbox consistently do allow mod on their products which is great since I can take a shirt from one of their outfits and wear it under a jacket and hide the faces that poke through. Or when it comes to hair I can change the alpha blending option so that I doesn't interact with other alpha textures I may have on such as glasses or say a fishnet shirt. 

[Pussycat Catnap]

Sheer and absolute stupidity on the part of content creators.

They think it helps with security - it doesn't.

They think it helps with support requests - it doesn't. If anything it increases them as people struggle to fix an issue.

 

I have a LOT of rigged moddable items - it's a blessing when I have them. I can fix textures, recolor to my EXACT desire, link things in to reduce the use of attachment points. UNLINK things to get rid of that one piece I didn't want... and more...

And... I still cannot 'download the mesh' just because it's mod.

 

Edited November 7, 2020 by Pussycat Catnap

[Ultima Cloud]

1 minute ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Sheer and absolute stupidity on the part of content creators.

They think it helps with security - it doesn't.

They think it helps with support requests - it doesn't. If anything it increases them as people struggle to fix an issue.

 

I have a LOT of rigged moddable items - it's a blessing when I have them. I can fix textures, recolor to my EXACT desire, link things in to reduce the use of attachment points. UNLINK things to get rid of that one piece I didn't want... and more...

And... I still cannot 'download the mesh' just because it's copy.

 

Yes I am getting to the point where I am not buying certain products because they are no mod. Especially things that are typically or could be worn under other things.

[Da5id Weatherwax]

2 minutes ago, Ultimo Constantineau said:

Yes I am getting to the point where I am not buying certain products because they are no mod. Especially things that are typically or could be worn under other things.

After getting burned by good looking products that ended up looking like crap in the situation I wanted to use them (as part of creating a particular "look" or as part of the furnishings/decorations of a particular area) simply because I couldn't make a trivial mod to them for me it is now 100% no-mod == no-buy. I'll take the time to make my own rather than buy a nomod product, even if I can't make it look quite as good as the one on the MP. it will still fit with the look/ambience/whatever I want to create using it cleaner than the unmodded "better" one.

[Gabriele Graves]

One reply I got from a well known creator when I asked for mod version to change the partial transparency of part of the outfit that was clashing with my hair and which I didn't really want that part partially transparent was along the lines of "This is my art and my vision, I don't want people misrepresenting my art by wearing altered copies".

I don't believe I have bought from them since.

[Pussycat Catnap]

4 minutes ago, Ultimo Constantineau said:

Yes I am getting to the point where I am not buying certain products because they are no mod. Especially things that are typically or could be worn under other things.

SL User: Help, my bits are broken in XYZ fashion and I can't get them to look right!

Human Body CSR 7 of 9 the brand is paying for dealing with some no-mod part: Ok, read that notecard, on line 273 where it says to click the 75 different things in the HUD in this order, and enter these values, then... wear this other HUD, then this applier, then... detach it and move it to this attachment point, then... contact me again tomorrow for the next steps.

 

Furry Body CSR the brand doesn't pay a dime to because who the heck needs a CSR: Sod-off and edit yourself noob, the thing is mod.

 

- they keep saying they need no-mod to reduce support calls, then I join their group and see nearly a dozen CSRs in chat all... day... long...

I think the furry makers, rude though they may be, have it down right. L2P noob and fix it yourself. 😛

 

[Ultima Cloud]

1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

One reply I got from a well known creator when I asked for mod version to change the partial transparency of part of the outfit that was clashing with my hair and which I didn't really want that part partially transparent was along the lines of "This is my art and my vision, I don't want people misrepresenting my art by wearing altered copies".

I don't believe I have bought from them since.

Ya I wonder if Nike gets upset when people tuck in their laces....

[Maitimo]

I honestly think that 99% of the reason people don't make modifyable mesh is because they want you to buy the fatpack instead of just buying the white or grey one and tinting it.

[Ultima Cloud]

1 minute ago, Maitimo said:

I honestly think that 99% of the reason people don't make modifyable mesh is because they want you to buy the fatpack instead of just buying the white or grey one and tinting it.

Most huds color change is in the texture and not the color box. Since the color box only adds the color to the texture. 

[Gabriele Graves]

Yes but a lot of people do it anyway and most vendors don't like it.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Gabriele Graves

[Ultima Cloud]

1 minute ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Yes but a lot of people do it anyway and most vendors don't like it.

lol well if they make their fatpack a reasonable price that wouldn't be an issue. But that's a whole other topic that I don't want to have a brain aneurysm over right now...

[Gabriele Graves]

5 minutes ago, Ultimo Constantineau said:

lol well if they make their fatpack a reasonable price that wouldn't be an issue. But that's a whole other topic that I don't want to have a brain aneurysm over right now...

It's worse than that, some vendors hold some popular single colours to ransom by making you buy the fatpack to get them at all.  I digress though.

The ability to tint is very useful when you want to match the same colour on another item you are wearing.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Gabriele Graves

[FairreLilette]

34 minutes ago, Maitimo said:

I honestly think that 99% of the reason people don't make modifyable mesh is because they want you to buy the fatpack instead of just buying the white or grey one and tinting it.

I agree 100% with this and this IS the reason for clothing to be no mod.  

The reason for no mod is so you don't just buy the white one and tint it other colors or even texture it other textures. 

However, I don't think an item can change a tint or texture unless it IS mod.  However, certain creator's have a way of blocking off the texture area.  I don't block off the texture area except for a very few items. 

Another seller who allows mod whom I adore is Dela, she does not block off her clients from tinting the hair.  She may write in her ad - item is mod, scripts are no mod.  Some items will read no mod when they contain no mod scripts.  Those kinds of items usually become modify upon rez.  Almost all my scripts are no mod but the item is fully mod.  With hair you wear that is reading no mod in your inventory due to the no mod scripts but actually IS mod - first wear the hair, then right click on the item in your inventory and choose EDIT that way to get to the tint and/or color palette built into every object in SL, unless the creator blocks access to it.   I don't.  Dela is another one I know of who doesn't.  There are some.  But, remember it will read no mod because the scripts may be no mod, not the item itself.   So, always check, especially hair. 

 

Edited November 7, 2020 by FairreLilette

[FairreLilette]

33 minutes ago, Ultimo Constantineau said:

Most huds color change is in the texture and not the color box. Since the color box only adds the color to the texture. 

You'd be surprised as I've heard otherwise and since you cannot access the texture area, there is no way to prove it is changing textures and not a notecard full of preset RGB values. 

[Ultima Cloud]

7 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

You'd be surprised as I've heard otherwise and since you cannot access the texture area, there is no way to prove it is changing textures and not a notecard full of preset RGB values. 

You can tell by the quality of the color change. The color change applies the same shade to the whole texture and is limited to SL capabilities. Which is generally figured out during demoing. A texture color changed in software such as photoshop or gimp or using materials in blender or maya is noticeably higher quality.

However I am a bit of snob when it comes to stuff like that. Maybe there's people who wouldn't notice the difference or be as opinionated about it.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Ultimo Constantineau

[FairreLilette]

7 minutes ago, Ultimo Constantineau said:

You can tell by the quality of the color change. The color change applies the same shade to the whole texture and is limited to SL capabilities. Which is generally figured out during demoing. A texture color changed in software such as photoshop or gimp or using materials in blender or maya is noticeably higher quality.

I use an ALL COLORS tinter HUD for most of my items as I wanted people to experience color and/or pick out colors of their own choice.  I don't see much loss.  Try my demos and tell me what "loss" you see.  My HUD is not the built-in SL tinter...it is a scripted ALL COLORS HUD.  Try some demos and see that for less than the price of what most others charge for one color, with mine, you could find at least 20 useful colors out of hundreds of colors available from just one HUD. 

Edited November 7, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Ultima Cloud]

8 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I use an ALL COLORS tinter HUD for most of my items as I wanted people to experience color and/or pick out colors of their own choice.  I don't see much loss.  Try my demos and tell me what "loss" you see.  My HUD is not the built-in SL tinter...it is a scripted ALL COLORS HUD.  Try some demos and see that for less than the price of what most others charge for one color, with mine, you could find at least 20 useful colors out of hundreds available from just one HUD. 

Yes for some products its makes sense but for detailed textures such as what's used on clothes not so much.

[Ultima Cloud]

8 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I use an ALL COLORS tinter HUD for most of my items as I wanted people to experience color and/or pick out colors of their own choice.  I don't see much loss.  Try my demos and tell me what "loss" you see.  My HUD is not the built-in SL tinter...it is a scripted ALL COLORS HUD.  Try some demos and see that for less than the price of what most others charge for one color, with mine, you could find at least 20 useful colors out of hundreds available from just one HUD. 

Yes for some products its makes sense but for detailed textures such as what's used on clothes not so much.

[Maitimo]

What you lose with tinting is the highlights.

A white garment that's tinted black is just solid black. But take a garment that's textured to be black, and it's black with lighter or white highlights. The same happens with an all-colours tinter hud. A true textured black thing isn't tinted at all, the colour is all in the texture.

[FairreLilette]

28 minutes ago, Ultimo Constantineau said:

Yes for some products its makes sense but for detailed textures such as what's used on clothes not so much.

My ALL COLORS HUDs or 100's of COLORS HUDs work fabulous for about 90% of items but I've found there are exceptions.

As a matter of fact, in the early days of SL, it used to be all change by RBG value by typing the correlating color on 'their' (an individual creator's notecard) that came with the product.  Such as for example, Seafoam Green on their notecard that came with the product, then you would type in /SeafoamGreen in the nearby chat window and it would change to that color.  There was no color loss on those items and that's how almost all SL wearables used to change in the olden days by typing the color you wanted it to change to in the nearby chat window.

But, agree to disagree on this.

However, IF an item you bought is changing color or texture or whathaveyou, it IS mod.  If your item was not mod, it would not change to anything would it?  However, many creator's block off access to the TEXTURE tab and I know how they do it.

I don't wish to discuss whether it's a texture or an RGB script because it cannot be proven.  I wasn't talking about the built-in SL viewer at first but that is what most creator's think...they will buy the white one, tint it, and I lose business. 

I had to cross that bridge myself...I decided to go with let them pick the colors they want out of all colors. 

Edited November 7, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Wulfie Reanimator]

2 hours ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Mostly I only see rigged mesh as no-mod and that is because you can't mod a rigged item.  

You can, absolutely, mod a rigged item.

The fact that the mesh is rigged only restricts size and position -- but there are literally dozens (note: plural) of other ways to modify an object.

Besides, why does "you can't do it anyway" justify going out of your way to try and further prevent it?

 

2 hours ago, Maitimo said:

I honestly think that 99% of the reason people don't make modifyable mesh is because they want you to buy the fatpack instead of just buying the white or grey one and tinting it.

I've seen a few stores sell colors separately with the white version being more expensive than the other options. I think that's reasonable.

Or you can just deal with it since I can't imagine most people (on average) buying multiple colors separately. If white is the most sold color, that doesn't necessarily mean you've lost any significant amount of money. Besides, white is not the perfect solution. If the texture has highlights, they'll get tinted too in a way that doesn't always look good (looks "flat"), so buying the other color options becomes necessary.

Even if I agreed on the tinting "problem," making the object no-modify is such an oppressive solution to all customers even if they had no intentions to buy white and tint it.

 

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

You'd be surprised as I've heard otherwise and since you cannot access the texture area, there is no way to prove it is changing textures and not a notecard full of preset RGB values. 

99% of the time it's very easy to tell whether a script is tinting the texture or swapping the texture altogether. A color tint is instant (after script lag), but a texture swap is noticeable because the new texture needs to be downloaded and you'll visibly see the grey/blurry texture as it loads. The exception is when there are multiple variants within the same texture, and the script is simply changing the offsets, which is also instant.

Edited November 7, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[FairreLilette]

6 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

99% of the time it's very easy to tell whether a script is tinting the texture or swapping the texture altogether. A color tint is instant (after script lag), but a texture swap is noticeable because the new texture needs to be downloaded and you'll visibly see the grey/blurry texture as it loads. The exception is when there are multiple variants within the same texture, and the script is simply changing the offsets, which is also instant.

Oh, yes, I see.  I'll have to check some of my items tomorrow.  Thankies. 

[Ultima Cloud]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

 

However, IF an item you bought is changing color or texture or whathaveyou, it IS mod. 

I

Just because a hud allows me to change color textures or color tints does not make the item mod.