Crazy Developer Idea - Discussion

[ItHadToComeToThis]

**Warning....end of work shift tired half asleep mad rambling word vomit time that probably makes no sense at all**

So I was watching the Lab Gab episode with Phillip Rosendale and he made a comment towards the end that got me thinking about one particular aspect of Second Life. He states (in my own words) that he would like to see this platform be more available to users and that the potential audience is much larger than the current user base. One topic that has always come up time and time again is about the learning curve that is required when it comes to getting into Second Life. Especially, on the development side of things now that mesh is a prominent feature of our virtual lives. Many years ago an avatar could log in, get orientated and then start making and building things by simply rez prims and experimenting with how they work. These days however, prims are out and mesh is in and its a case of learning Blender, Avastar, Marvellous Designer and ZBrush depending on what it is you want to make and with the ever increasing quality of items and the flooded fashion market, you could argue that its more difficult than ever to become a designer and make any kind of impact. For new potential users and appealing to the creative aspects of those users, this learning curve is something that probably scares quite a lot of them off as its just such an insurmountable amount of work that is required. Many years ago the general development progress of a noob in SL was along the lines of...

Prims / System Clothing -> Building -> Scripting / Animating / Texturing

One thing led to a curiosity in another which helped potential new developers find their calling and figure out where they wanted to go next.

So my discussion is this...

As Linden Lab doesn't seem to be making this journey any easier. Should those of us who have developmental skills do something about it. For example, creating new and updated script libraries, object packs, textures, decent basic mesh body that supports BOM with some decent looking basic clothing options that can be modified using BOM, animation libraries, new set of mesh "prims" that have a multitude of shapes, sizes and curves etc etc that new and old users could use to get into developing in world in Second Life. All contained under a single, common brand?. And then maybe lobby LL to include these creations in a folder that new and old avatars have access to in the library folder in our inventories?. As well as on, maybe, idk...a new wiki that specifically links to said items and also includes detailed tutorials (video or written) for new users to help them when it comes to learning about Second Life?. Sure we have the SL wiki but that can be a tad confusing a new comer and sometimes a pain in the a** to an oldbie.

Perhaps this wouldn't work and perhaps its just the mad ramblings of a very tired woman at the end of her night shift. But, should we as a community band together and start doing something to bring more creative ability to new and old residents in Second Life?. Would it be a neat idea if someone could log in and immediately start setting up a game in their sim or learning how to design a texture for their basic body and clothing without having to jump through all the hoops that are currently required?. Would this help spark creativity in people that would lead them to wanting to progress further and start learning the more complicated aspects of SL development?.

[animats]

1 hour ago, ItHadToComeToThis said:

All contained under a single, common brand?

That's called a "roll-up" by merger and acquisition people. It takes money to bring off.

The closest thing to that in SL is perhaps NTBI, which was at one time the leading maker of modern role-playing items. Cars, trucks, emergency vehicles, phones, office equipment, furniture - everything you need, very well made. They have a mall with all their brands at "NTBI" region. But modern roleplay went into decline, and that business stagnated.

Wait and see if the new owners of Linden Lab are expansionist.

[Odaks]

4 hours ago, animats said:

expansionist.

...and I immediately brought to mind "a lot of hot air".

But, O ye of little faith..... you never know!

[Conifer Dada]

My SL wishlist would be along somewhat similar lines. Except that I'd favour an update of the classic 'system' avatar mesh to remove the glitches and give smoother joint articulation - but still compatible with the current texture templates. Also there could be additional slider options such as thigh length (independent of leg length), arm angle - so that fat avatars could keep their arms outside their body and an adjustable basic stance (such as straight back or stoop) that still works when you use an animation or AO.  Also a set of full-perms mesh clothes in the starter library section, with properly made alpha layers would be good. 

A few more prim shapes would be good and even more useful would be some extra tools. For example if you could draw a shape and then extrude it that would be really useful. So would being able to slice through a prim at an angle. Then there could also be a function for converting your prim creation, complete with all its textures, into an optimised mesh object that looks exactly the same. Maybe LL could make small charge for each 'mesh conversion'.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Conifer Dada

[ChinRey]

Ebbe Linden recently described Second Life as a "Cash machine". He has also said SL content creators have it way too easy.

I have done a bit of what the OP suggests in the past and so have many others. Everything she lists, even a BOM mesh body (that isn't that basic even) already exists, some of it for free, some for a symbolic single L$. We'll keep on doing it too, partly out of old habit, partly because we desperately want to believe in the share and share alike ideal. But it feels a bit like laying down naked by a forest pool and invite the mosquitos to dinner.

Edited August 9, 2020 by ChinRey

[FairreLilette]

10 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

He as also said that SL content creators have it far too easy.

What does he mean by this?  I just worked three 13-hour days doing some Halloween projects and the pay is literally peanuts...so it's done because 1) I'm learning and 2) It's my hobby.  So, I foot most of the bill and it ain't easy not by a long shot.  It's not the first time I've worked 12 to 13-hour days, and that's just doing the Photoshop part, there's much more to do beyond Photoshop too.  

 

6 hours ago, ItHadToComeToThis said:

this learning curve is something that probably scares quite a lot of them off as its just such an insurmountable amount of work that is required. Many years ago the general development progress of a noob in SL was along the lines of...

The learning curve is very high just to make a mesh avatar for socializing, building aside.  It's a lot about avatar customization now.

You covered so much in your post, so all I really have to add is prims can be used once in a great while.  IMO, it's sculpties that need to retire plus the sculpty LOD is too high.  I keep my LOD set on 2-3 and SL runs better.  The new owners need to lower the LOD and end sculpties, imo because it holds no candle to mesh.  Mesh is beautiful.  Sculpties clunky and ugly.  

Edited August 9, 2020 by FairreLilette

[ChinRey]

18 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

What does he mean by this?

Ask him.

What he actually said was:

Quote

we’ve also taken some actions to pick-up some of the revenue elsewhere; on the exchange and on the redemption side of the equation to compensate a little bit for this. Because yes, i do believe that the burden of land owners is a bit too high, and we have other people in the world who are sort-of getting away with not being charged enough or taxed enough

(https://modemworld.me/lab-chat-3-bento-and-second-life/#mainland)

He didn't actually name content creators as such but the changes LL made to their pricing policy a few months later was to shift the burden from landowners to content creators/merchants.

[FairreLilette]

31 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

Ask him.

What he actually said was:

(https://modemworld.me/lab-chat-3-bento-and-second-life/#mainland)

He didn't actually name content creators as such but the changes LL made to their pricing policy a few months later was to shift the burden from landowners to content creators/merchants.

LL taking 5% of Marketplace sales was too low but to jump to 10% it needs to end there.  I've watched Shark Tank and the average percentage other's take of other's work is about 7%, so if LL ever raised it beyond the high 10%, they'd be considered "sharks" as again 7% is considered the appropriate and LL are high at the 10% they take now and in "shark" territory already.  If Tilia expands and is a success, I hope they (the new owners) consider not burdening content creator's with such a high percentage.   

So, I believe the "too easy" must have been in terms of when LL took 5% of sales from Marketplace sales.  It's been doubled to 10% quite awhile ago.  Some people left because of it . 

The "too easy" was not in terms of the work involved, it must have been regarding when they took 5% of all Marketplace sales which was too low.  

Edited August 9, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

LL taking 5% of Marketplace sales was too low but to jump to 10% it needs to end there.  I've watched Shark Tank and the average percentage other's take of other's work is about 7%, so if LL ever raised it beyond the high 10%, they'd be considered "sharks" as again 7% is considered the appropriate and LL are high at the 10% they take now and in "shark" territory already.

Don't ever look at any other virtual merchant platform, like Apple/Android store, Steam/Origin/Epic Games store, Unity's Asset Store, Turbosquid, or any other "assets for sale" type of thing... You'll have a heart attack.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[FairreLilette]

40 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Don't ever look at any other virtual merchant platform, like Apple/Android store, Steam/Origin/Epic Games store, Unity's Asset Store, Turbosquid, or any other "assets for sale" type of thing... You'll have a heart attack.

I just looked up Apple.  It's 30% BUT I have no idea how apps work nor what is the cost involved to keep the apps running etc as compared to keeping Marketplace running.

From the looks of 30% though, most business people would say "Thar be sharks.  Best to get out of the water".  However, how can general business people know what is the actual cost to run the apps?

Shark tank is based on tangible real world goods.  At, 20%, thar be sharks for sure (real life goods).  

Edited August 9, 2020 by FairreLilette

[ChinRey]

1 hour ago, FairreLilette said:

LL taking 5% of Marketplace sales was too low but to jump to 10% it needs to end there.

 

5 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Don't ever look at any other merchant platform, like Apple/Android store, Steam/Origin/Epic Games store, Unity's Asset Store, Turbosquid, or any other "assets for sale" type of thing... You'll have a heart attack.

I am happily selling on platforms that charge a lot more than 10% but they also offer far more in return: far better services and support and access to much bigger and more lucrative markets. But this is a digression so let's just agree to disagree for now.

This really makes me feel sad because I love the OP's idea of course and yes, I am willing to contribute a little bit to it. But I'm also so tired of being taken advantage of. And I'm so fed up seeing others profit from my and my friends' work without giving as much as a thank you in return or even showing some basic respect.

Oh well. How about some good music to set the mood right?

 

[Wulfie Reanimator]

14 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I just looked up Apple.  It's 30% BUT I have no idea how apps work nor what is the cost involved to keep the apps running etc as compared to keeping Marketplace running.

From the looks of 30% though, most business people would say "Thar be sharks.  Best to get out of the water".  However, how can general business people know what is the actual cost to run the apps?

Shark tank is based on tangible real world goods.  At, 20%, thar be sharks for sure (real life goods).  

All of the stores I mentioned take 30%. I also mentioned stores that don't involve any "running costs" like Turbosquid, which takes 60% from basic accounts, 40% otherwise. Sketchfab takes 30%. CGTrader takes 30-20% (you accumulate points which raises your cut, slowly).

10 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

But this is a digression so let's just agree to disagree for now.

Sounds good to me.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Paul Hexem]

1 hour ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Don't ever look at any other virtual merchant platform, like Apple/Android store, Steam/Origin/Epic Games store, Unity's Asset Store, Turbosquid, or any other "assets for sale" type of thing... You'll have a heart attack.

 

13 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

All of the stores I mentioned take 30%. I also mentioned stores that don't involve any "running costs" like Turbosquid, which takes 60% from basic accounts, 40% otherwise. Sketchfab takes 30%. CGTrader takes 30-20% (you accumulate points which raises your cut, slowly).

Sounds good to me.

Except all of those platforms that charge more offer way, way more. They don't call it a "user to user dispute" after they facilitate federal crimes.

[FairreLilette]

20 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Sounds good to me.

Me too.  It's off topic but I was thinking the "too easy" was in response to the work for SL which there is nothing easy about it.  But, I think the CEO meant at far as the 5% for LL's cut which it used to be but is now 10%.  Actually for real life I've heard anything over 13% is a shark but some people will take anything.  30-60%, whoa! is about all I have to say!

Edited August 9, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Qie Niangao]

Y'all can pretend the comparison is among platforms, but that's not what Ebbe meant. Rather, he was echoing what any number of SL critics have griped about for ages: balancing so much of the bottom line on the Land product stifles growth. If there were a more balanced shouldering of costs, land could be less expensive to own, which promotes user growth and market expansion for all user generated content. Or, at least that's the theory.

I don't know of any good cross-platform comparison for land tier. Hosting cost for a blog, maybe?

[Kyrah Abattoir]

1 hour ago, ChinRey said:

But I'm also so tired of being taken advantage of. And I'm so fed up seeing others profit from my and my friends' work without giving as much as a thank you in return or even showing some basic respect.

Pretty much.

Some creators have released their collection of work fullperm when they left, it is very nice of them however what ended up happening is that people simply call it their own and put it back for sale, more often than not with more restrictive permissions.

Every piece of code I ever released for others to build upon, I end up finding in overpriced items, completely unmodified.

[Kyrah Abattoir]

3 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Y'all can pretend the comparison is among platforms, but that's not what Ebbe meant. Rather, he was echoing what any number of SL critics have griped about for ages: balancing so much of the bottom line on the Land product stifles growth. If there were a more balanced shouldering of costs, land could be less expensive to own, which promotes user growth and market expansion for all user generated content. Or, at least that's the theory.

I don't know of any good cross-platform comparison for land tier. Hosting cost for a blog, maybe?

It's a great idea, but in practice, why lower prices for group A and raise it for group B, when you can just raise it for A and B?

[Conifer Dada]

I'm lucky enough to have a good computer and internet connection so SL normally works smoothly for me even with advanced graphics. The exception to this is in busy places, where there's still lots of lag and avatars take ages to rez. Linked to what I said earlier about LL upgrading the system avatar and providing free full-perms and graphics-optimised clothing, if LL upped their game with 'official' fully customisable content, that would, over time, improve performance at busy places., which in turn would make the experience more appealing to users. In particular it could mean retaining those wavering over giving up on SL and also newbies whose first-day experiences of dismembered body sections and giant flying dentures means they don't bother with a second day. I reflect on my first day in SL, almost 14 years ago now, when I nearly gave up after an hour or so because so many things were default grey and movement was so jerky. I'm so thankful I carried on, though.

Edited August 9, 2020 by Conifer Dada

[FairreLilette]

1 hour ago, Qie Niangao said:

If there were a more balanced shouldering of costs, land could be less expensive to own, which promotes user growth and market expansion for all user generated content. Or, at least that's the theory.

Land is already far better priced than it used to be.  

But, what I really wanted to ask is don't you think LL was/is making a great deal on the advertising cost not only for advertising products on Marketplace but for the advertisement listings in the inworld search?  I've seen ads inworld at 15,000 linden a week or something like that.  That's a lot of money for an advertisement, imo.  

I've also heard the Linden's make an excellent profit at what they have now.  

EDIT:  Bellesaria (spelling?) seems to be the land most want.  They need more Bellesaria's then perhaps?  

Edited August 9, 2020 by FairreLilette

[Drakonadrgora Darkfold]

Would it be good.. yes..

Is it practical.. no..

Will it likely happen.. no.

[Bree Giffen]

I think it's a good idea to create content that assists content creators. Residents are already selling prefabs and scripts on the marketplace but it sounds like you're asking for a free library of items pushed by SL to new users. Perhaps instead of giving premium members houses, LL should offer lego-style building pieces for a house and make users build their own or instead of giving people avatars, give them an option to make their own clothes and body parts. Instructions would be included of course.

[Jennifer Boyle]

10 hours ago, Conifer Dada said:

.. there could also be a function for converting your prim creation, complete with all its textures, into an optimised mesh object that looks exactly the same. Maybe LL could make small charge for each 'mesh conversion'.

I'd kill for that!

[Gabriele Graves]

1 hour ago, Bree Giffen said:

but it sounds like you're asking for a free library of items pushed by SL to new users.

This is how I read the OP as well.

There is already an immense amount of generously given free items in world.  I don't think the amount of resources are necessarily the issue, in fact that might be part of the problem - there is so much out there.

I think the problem is that new people have no idea where all these things are.  There are efforts to help new people find good free things but obviously having essential things in one universal place that is easy to find and use is a good thing.

I don't know if anyone has a good handle on how many people join with the idea to primarily create content and what level of skill any help should be aimed at versus those who become content creators later after having been in SL for some time.  I think this might make it hard to target new content creators.  Are they learning the platform and the skills needed to create or just the platform?

 

[Maryanne Solo]

I came to SL specifically to make clothing items. Which I did for a few years and now I have moved to producing RL 3D mesh. 

LL have to realise, there are only a limited number of people who are ever going to pay hard earned R.L cash for something that doesn't even exist. = Virtual Land.

 I still SMH at the notion and the idea remains preposterous quite frankly. I mean.... srsly ^~ Come on now lol.

Where are the LL self paced tutorials & fun exams to gain levels of SL/LSL competency?

Autodesk can do similar, MS can do similar, Adobe can do similar....
We've just been standing here picking our virtual noses for a decade or more,
while in RL we gleefully undertake 35 gazillion courses in whatever we can get our hands upon.

Where is my LL certified scripter forum badge ^.^... huh? Or graphics competency forum badge? 🤔  etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.........
This would take away the publics perceived "Yuk factor" of adult materials/activities and "weirdness" that has always accompanied such an amazing platform.

These training courses could be structured in such a way that you do get certificates upon completion in either your SL name or RL name lol.
I do believe LL is in a position to offer such tuition and over time, these courses would be recognised within IT & gaming industries.

We have given you our all LL.
It's time to "give back" in a way that benefits everyone involved.
Isn't it?
You changed my RL completely without even trying.
Just imagine how much peoples lives could be influenced if you provided such opportunities?

We'z NOT weirdos, We'z gurus! 😛😊 3d mesh? pffft easyyyy! I gained basic certification in Second Life. 🤩 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Maryanne Solo
Made a mesh of it.

[Jennifer Boyle]

I know that this isn't exactly what the OP was talking about, but it does address the new user experience and the daunting learning curve for new SL users.

Some years ago LL tried to address the issue by having a basic level of functionality of the viewer that was less complicated and easier to use. They had the right idea, but they botched the execution, IMHO because they didn't understand what residents want. At the time, around 2010, I spent a lot of time volunteering at a sim dedicated to helping new users, so I learned what new users wanted and how the basic version of the viewer was received. The problem with it was that it limited avatar customization way too much. If memory serves, which it may not very well, users couldn't replace their beginner skin with painted-on underwear. If it wasn't that, it was something equally as limiting.

In any case, I think multiple, CAREFULLY-SELECTED, levels of user-selectable viewer functionality could help improve the new user experience. I think something like Beginner, Apprentice, Standard, Builder, and Ultimate, might be appropriate.

I am very impressed with how content creators have been made video tutorials that are very short but tell people what they need to know about how to use their complex products. Perhaps LL should emulate them.

Finally, I recently made a new alt just to see what new users see. It is the same as it has been for years. There is nothing that tells them the the username is anything more than a login ID , and that it will actually be visible inworld. There is nothing that suggests a related but different name when they try one that is already taken, like many, if not most, sites have. And there is nothing that tells them that the username will actually be visible inworld, A LOT.

It seems that chat from scripted objects always uses usernames, not display names. Why is that? Are scripts unable to use display names? If so, LL should fix it. If not, LL should announce, with plenty of lead time, that it will deprecate scripts' ability to say usernames in chat unless the account has no display name. I use display names because I think people should be known by the names they want to be known by. Many times, I have been puzzled when scripted objects said things about cryptic names I didn't recognize.

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Jennifer Boyle
added material