Why is simple modify such a crime for mesh objects?

[LordHappycat]

Now, I'm a modder and I understand it when vendors elect not to choose to have their products to have Modify-enabled. They may not want their creations to be spliced or entirely reworked beyond their intention. Out of fear of the new mashed up object that person has made, to be resold and profit off of their creations. Nobody likes that, except me but that'd be only if I was a vendor myself because I encourage creativity based on my experience in taking small parts and putting them on other objects to say, turn normal boots into rave ones. But I don't re-sell these things.

However, it still boggles my mind, when not even the simple basics of modifying an object is not allowed. Like, moving the mesh object around an avatar for a better fit. I don't know, can that be called modifying? I guess. I'm just failing to see the problem in simply wanting to move an object around to better fit or maybe a simple resize.

Can anyone give me a good explanation about why it is so?

[LittleMe Jewell]

24 minutes ago, LordHappycat said:

However, it still boggles my mind, when not even the simple basics of modifying an object is not allowed. Like, moving the mesh object around an avatar for a better fit. I don't know, can that be called modifying? I guess. I'm just failing to see the problem in simply wanting to move an object around to better fit or maybe a simple resize.

Can anyone give me a good explanation about why it is so?

Not being able to move an object is because the object is "rigged" -- attached to specific body bones.  It is the rigging that allows the mesh to change size (to a degree) automatically when the body size is changed.  A hair rigged to the head should expand or shrink as the head size changes via shape adjustments.  Ditto with a mesh top or pants and changes made to the size of different body areas.  Without that, we are back to the original Standard Mesh where everyone has to adapt their size to be close to a pre-defined set of 'standard sizes'.

Many of the hair creators provide both a rigged and unrigged version in the package.  Many jewelry / accessory creators are supplying their item unrigged.  Sometimes you just have to shop around to find unrigged version of what you want.  

What type of item, in particular, are you talking about?

[Lucia Nightfire]

No-mod permission will not stop theft.

Anything rendered can be stolen. Mesh, rigging, weighting, textures, materials, etc.

It is arguable that no-mod promotes/encourages theft.

Another benefit to mod/copy permission with rigged mesh is the ability to consolidate attachments to save attach slots.

[Lindal Kidd]

No, no..."rigged" mesh is actually a GOOD thing, mostly.

Being linked to the avatar skeleton gives rigged mesh two very useful properties.

1) It's affected by the Edit Appearance > Edit Shape sliders (many of them, anyway), so if you change your shape, it changes along with you.

2) Even more importantly, it will bend and move when you do.  An unrigged mesh gown would have all the flexibility of an anvil.

In return for those Good Things, the down side is that once rigged, a mesh object can no longer be affected by SL's inworld Edit tools.

[Mollymews]

On 7/26/2020 at 8:01 PM, TheSarali said:

Even just for the sake of inventory organization being able to rename objects is helpful, which having an item be no-mod needlessly locks down.

this is the most painful for me, not being able to rename the Inventory listing

like we get a texture HUD with an item. We make a copy of the item and use the HUD to change the texture

with modify we can rename the copy to reflect the texture choice and we can remove the scripts in the copy easily when the HUD doesn't provide a way to do this

with no-modify we have to create a Inventory sub-folder for the texture choice item and name the sub-folder to reflect the texture choice. This is doable but is painful

is the creators choice to release their stuff as they like, but sometimes a different way of thinking about things can lead to an increase in sales

 

[Kyrah Abattoir]

16 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

I agree. But...

People steal which makes people with stuff afraid it will get  stolen. So expect people to do what they can to protect their I.P.

Nomod only inconvenience your users.

Personal opinion here: It seem, to me that it is always the talentless hacks that are most worried about getting their stuff stolen. Everyone else just create more things and provide good support.

9 hours ago, Lucia Nightfire said:

No-mod permission will not stop theft.

Anything rendered can be stolen. Mesh, rigging, weighting, textures, materials, etc.

It is arguable that no-mod promotes/encourages theft.

I highly suspect that this is more likely than we think. People are more likely to look for mesh ripping tools when they are locked out of basic inworld editing.

[Nalates Urriah]

18 hours ago, TheSarali said:

It does nothing to stop stealing though and only stops those trying to get more out of objects they legitimately purchased.

There you go... being practical. You are right. But that has nothing to do with what those designers think.

[bigmoe Whitfield]

8 hours ago, LordHappycat said:

But where else are you going to find particular items that they've made?
Without resorting to A) Copybotting B) Making it yourself or C) Hampering the Creator over the permissions.

First off,  Let's address A) that's how you get in trouble and nobody legit is going to do that,  b) depends on what it is,  maybe I will, maybe I won't, up to me,  c) what does this mean?   if they are not willing to sell it mod, so I can put my own texture on it or have some method of allowing me to do that,  then whats hampering about it?   

 

So point is,  no mod is from a by gone era were people were very paranoid and now it's turned into "THIS IS MY WORK , YOU NO TOUCH MY WORK" if they want to be have like that,   then it's pretty simple, I keep my wallet in my pocket and goto the next store.

[Mollymews]

4 hours ago, Jules Catlyn said:

My reason for selling No Mod is that people kept messing up their mods and then expected me to fix them. Even when i specifically stated that i am not giving any guarantees on mods. This resulted in quite the workload for me and also quite a few insults from people that i gave bad service for not wanting to fix their mishaps. I do offer a variety of mod options via my products menus (custom color, resizing, etc) 

I am very much aware that i am loosing sales because of this but, outside of the occasional rant about by stuff being No Mod, i enjoy the peace and quiet and can focus on creating and running my business.

quite a few people who do provide Mod, don't ever get into correspondence for all the reasons that you mention. They just send their customer a replacement copy or direct them to their inworld redelivery vendor. When selling on Marketplace then send a proforma IM telling their customer to get a Redeliver

[Wulfie Reanimator]

7 hours ago, Jules Catlyn said:

I did that as well. In my case it is cars, People want to Mod their car and one of the first mods they want to do is change the wheels. These are scripted to work in conjunction with the main car script. Not just a matter of swapping them out. I would tell them this and then point out that the car is also copy. So they had a fresh copy they could use in their inventory. Then they would get really insulting and demand i change the wheels. At no cost of course. So i just decided to just sell No Mod.

I understand that dealing with people like this is frustrating/annoying, but why not just ignore them? Selling on Marketplace doesn't obligate you into customer service.

I believe no-modify is mostly an anti-consumer choice. Obviously, not everything can stay modifiable (generally when the product is part of a bigger ecosystem), but taking away the ability to modify your product from all of your users because of the aggressive dummies seems at least as extreme.

And personally, I would write the script in such a way that it wasn't so fragile (no offense meant here) that replacing the wheels would break it. Scripts can account for that, and you can include a notecard with instructions on how to replace the wheels. For example: "The wheels must be named [some pattern the script recognizes]." Even if your wheels need their individual scripts, you said your product is Copy. That means the scripts can be copied into the new wheels by the owner.

Edited January 28, 2021 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, Vivienne Schell said:

Yes-Mod can be too. It does not help much to make a mesh build mod, cause the mesh itself does not allow too many modifications. That causes some frustration among people who purchased in the belief that they can mod the build substantially.

Regarding scripts: A scripter who sells scripts full permission won´t sell any scripts anymore in the near future. 😋

There are a significant number of things you can do to a mesh object, even if the mesh itself can't be edited (or even resized/repositioned as with rigged items).

Frustration caused by different expectations is not anti-consumer, and taking away the possibility of editing an object because "you can't edit it anyway" is just wrong and false.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, Vivienne Schell said:

I dislike no mod items as much as you do, but there really are a few valid reasons for distributing certain things "no mod". Almost every creator of avatar clothes sells no mod, and these people are not malicious or anti-user biased, in my opinion.

I obviously agree that there are reasons to keep things no-modify, I said as much. I don't think any of the sellers are malicious either.

Some of them are just following license agreements. Some of them are avoiding customer support. Some of them are ignorant and think no-modify will "protect" them. Some of them think their vision is literal perfection and must not be violated. Some have other reasons.

I think most of these reasons are bad, but not all.

Edited January 29, 2021 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Nalates Urriah]

On 1/28/2021 at 2:31 AM, Jules Catlyn said:

I did that as well. In my case it is cars, People want to Mod their car and one of the first mods they want to do is change the wheels. These are scripted to work in conjunction with the main car script. Not just a matter of swapping them out. I would tell them this and then point out that the car is also copy. So they had a fresh copy they could use in their inventory. Then they would get really insulting and demand i change the wheels. At no cost of course. So i just decided to just sell No Mod.

You may want to look at how Shergood Aviation has made their copters. These are way complex and modifiable. Kelly provides a script that corrects the link order when someone adds prims.

Also, state your policy for providing help. I have no problem being told that if I break it is on me. So have a backup. I also have no problem telling a customer of mine that is out of line to take the free genital I just sent them and to go inseminate their self.

On 7/12/2020 at 8:33 AM, LordHappycat said:

However, it still boggles my mind, when not even the simple basics of modifying an object is not allowed. Like, moving the mesh object around an avatar for a better fit. I don't know, can that be called modifying? I guess. I'm just failing to see the problem in simply wanting to move an object around to better fit or maybe a simple resize.

Can anyone give me a good explanation about why it is so?

That is not a choice. When mesh items cannot be moved or resized it isn't always because they are no mode. Even a full perm rigged mesh item cannot be modified for position or size. Position and size are determined outside the viewer in the 3D modeling program. Once upload to SL and worn there is no way for the SL system to mod the position or size. The viewer does not have that ability. It is a limitation of the system.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Nalates Urriah

[Drake1 Nightfire]

17 minutes ago, TheSarali said:

That sucks and I've heard that, but it was your choice to buy from those full perm mesh creators that have those sorts of restrictions.  Don't get me wrong, that's incredibly dumb that they do that imo and those full perm mesh creators should absolutely not be selling their meshes with the limitation that you can't sell them mod.  But when they do something like that, why buy from them and support their restrictions with your money?  If nobody bought from them, especially if they received a number of complaints about it from potential customers, then they I imagine wouldn't sell them like that.  It's such a weird restriction in the first place.

You obviously havent ever looked at the Full Perm items on the Marketplace.. There are very very few that make quality items that are rigged well. You buy from those that make items you can profit from or make items you like. If an item has zero restrictions but is rigged poorly, why would i buy it? 

Again, as i have stated many many times, Aside from linking items to it, there are no good reasons to sell mesh clothing with mod rights. 

One of the biggest stores in SL, Blueberry has almost 7000 items in their MP store.. 4 are mod. 

[LordHappycat]

In all the years I've resized things and tinkered with objects, I've not seen nor practiced this, but I'm awfully intrigued because this could open more doors to finally come to some acceptance with rigged mesh. Seeing a lot of rigged mesh, to me, were dirty words. They were that way because whenever I attached them to my avatar, which is a classic-based avatar, I was frustrated to not be able to move the mesh object with the arrows in the build menu. Heck, not even spin them around on the rotation axis as well.

Oh, it's no particular item. It's just something that always irked me with mesh objects from time to time.

[TheSarali]

On 7/12/2020 at 6:16 PM, Lindal Kidd said:

the down side is that once rigged, a mesh object can no longer be affected by SL's inworld Edit tools.

That's not entirely true.  It can't be affected by move tools, but modify permissions do still matter because texturing and tinting and various other modifications all still work just fine.  Even just for the sake of inventory organization being able to rename objects is helpful, which having an item be no-mod needlessly locks down.  The benefits of mod, even on rigged items, are quite significant and still enable a really high degree of creativity, but unfortunately they are often overlooked.  It bugs me quite a lot that SL has become so overtaken by no-modify creations.  Even the most popular bodies are no-mod nowadays, which really sucks.

[Nalates Urriah]

On 7/26/2020 at 1:01 AM, TheSarali said:

... Even the most popular bodies are no-mod nowadays, which really sucks.

I agree. But...

People steal which makes people with stuff afraid it will get  stolen. So expect people to do what they can to protect their I.P.

[LittleMe Jewell]

On 7/26/2020 at 2:01 AM, TheSarali said:

That's not entirely true.  It can't be affected by move tools, but modify permissions do still matter because texturing and tinting and various other modifications all still work just fine.  Even just for the sake of inventory organization being able to rename objects is helpful, which having an item be no-mod needlessly locks down.  The benefits of mod, even on rigged items, are quite significant and still enable a really high degree of creativity, but unfortunately they are often overlooked.  It bugs me quite a lot that SL has become so overtaken by no-modify creations.  Even the most popular bodies are no-mod nowadays, which really sucks.

While I don't necessarily agree with all of the reasons that some creators have for making items no-mod, I do at least understand their point of view.

 

[TheSarali]

On 8/3/2020 at 8:44 AM, Nalates Urriah said:

I agree. But...

People steal which makes people with stuff afraid it will get  stolen. So expect people to do what they can to protect their I.P.

It does nothing to stop stealing though and only stops those trying to get more out of objects they legitimately purchased.

[LordHappycat]

5 hours ago, TheSarali said:

It does nothing to stop stealing though and only stops those trying to get more out of objects they legitimately purchased.

Precisely.

It's like, you're meaning to tell the user that they've spent $1,000L or more on an item and the most they can do is just resize and 'deal with it'?

That's asking for poor reviews and poor recommendations.

[Alwin Alcott]

47 minutes ago, LordHappycat said:

That's asking for poor reviews and poor recommendations.

they ask nothing, it's up to the buyer to take it or not. Permissions are clear upfront, so bad reviews are false reviews.

[TheSarali]

On 1/20/2021 at 6:24 AM, Alwin Alcott said:

they ask nothing, it's up to the buyer to take it or not. Permissions are clear upfront, so bad reviews are false reviews.

There's actually a *ton* of items sold nowadays without the permissions listed, at least inworld, which is a significant issue.  People seem to just assume that many types of items are not only okay to be no-mod but should be expected to be no-mod.  And that's super not cool.  But yeah, on the marketplace where most reviews happen they do at least require the seller to put in what an item's perms are.  Though it's not always accurate, and if it's not then that's worth a friendly chat to the store owner to see if it can be resolved and then a review if it can't, usually it is.  It would be nice if it was still common practice for sellers for list perms on their advertisement pictures.  I miss that, I often have to do a lot of searching nowadays when buying inworld to find out if an item is mod or not, if the information is even available anywhere.  I wish there was stronger pushback against that to at least let sellers know that some of us care if items are mod or not and want that info available.

 

On 1/20/2021 at 6:24 PM, Nalates Urriah said:

There you go... being practical. You are right. But that has nothing to do with what those designers think.

Thank you.  And yeah, that's true.  There's a few reasons I've been able to figure out for why people make objects no-mod.  Almost none of them good as far as I've been able to find, but a lack of knowledge like that is definitely one of them.  I don't really mean that as an insult though it kinda might sound like one.  We're *all* ignorant of some things, that's just human nature and nobody should be faulted for that, it's the willingness to learn that makes the difference.  But still yeah, lack of knowledge of what it does and doesn't actually prevent is definitely a common reason I agree.

[Alwin Alcott]

24 minutes ago, TheSarali said:

There's actually a *ton* of items sold nowadays without the permissions listed, at least inworld, which is a significant issue.

do not buy it ?

if you want to buy a new car in rl do you go only for the shiny pic or would like to see the specs too? if the seller only shows a pic you also go the the next door.( at least i do)

 

25 minutes ago, TheSarali said:

  I wish there was stronger pushback against that to at least let sellers know

see above ; do not buy it ...is a pretty strong sign for a seller. Why would he/she adjust while others still buy it?

[Love Zhaoying]

The crime aspect of mesh began at the "Crimea River"..

[TheSarali]

On 1/22/2021 at 2:21 AM, Alwin Alcott said:

do not buy it ?

I generally don't.  But I'm only one person.  I meant stronger as a general social push.  I didn't mean just from me.

[Alwin Alcott]

2 hours ago, TheSarali said:

I generally don't.  But I'm only one person.  I meant stronger as a general social push.  I didn't mean just from me.

why?
what you say now is that it shouldn't be allowed to sell their items as they do ... but they áre, and buyers have the right to look elsewhere without questions asked.