Luna Bliss Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Just now, Gage Wirefly said: 5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: I'd venture to say the police who would be hurt would be far less in number than citizens who would be harmed. Sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils where we save the greater number of people and accept this as the best outcome. Unreal. Gage, are you in the US? Do you have any idea how many citizens in the US are harmed here unnecessarily by police? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairreLilette Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 11 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Drugs are definitely a problem, and we should focus on rehabilitation instead of prison as a solution (for all but the major dealers). However, Timothy Leary is not responsible, nor is LSD the substance we should be concerned about. I think he is partly responsible. Who else is responsible? Any ideas? And, no, I don't want to see kids believing this and still taking LSD which some in the Los Angeles area do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gage Wirefly Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said: Gage, are you in the US? Do you have any idea how many citizens in the US are harmed here unnecessarily by police? Indeed I am, but I am also aware of how many police officers are unnecessarily harmed by citizens. It goes both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyssa Greymoon Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 6 minutes ago, Gage Wirefly said: Source, please. https://lmgtfy.com/?q=united+states+crime+rates+by+year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordyn McGregor Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 Just now, Luna Bliss said: I'd venture to say the police who would be hurt would be far less in number than citizens who would be harmed. Sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils where we save the greater number of people and accept this as the best outcome. Your argument makes no sense. You have been one of the most vocal proponents of BLM, an organisation and movement that (in their words) is about ending police brutality to blacks. In 2019, 9 unarmed blacks died at the hands of the police. NINE. Just this month alone, is it now 10 black children who have been killed by blacks, many waving their BLM flags. Which one of those is the lesser of two evils? The criminals who resisted arrest and died as a result of their actions, or the innocent children who will never get to grow up and maybe accomplish greatness? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 10 minutes ago, Gage Wirefly said: Source, please. Also https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/17/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, FairreLilette said: 19 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Drugs are definitely a problem, and we should focus on rehabilitation instead of prison as a solution (for all but the major dealers). However, Timothy Leary is not responsible, nor is LSD the substance we should be concerned about. I think he is partly responsible. Who else is responsible? Any ideas? And, no, I don't want to see kids believing this and still taking LSD which some in the Los Angeles area do. Rarely are people taking such substances violent -- they just sit there and look at the pretty walls, or what they've become in their mind...lol. If you want to look at the root causes of why we have such a drug problem (the kind of drugs that cause people to want to escape from life) then we'd need to look at the reasons why people are so unhappy they want to get away from reality. I think we have a sick society that places value in the wrong things (materialism vs community), and also forces a lower class to remain in poverty so the wealthy can funnel the most profit to themselves. People without hope escape via drugs. Edited July 17, 2020 by Luna Bliss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 23 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: I'd venture to say the police who would be hurt would be far less in number than citizens who would be harmed. Sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils where we save the greater number of people and accept this as the best outcome. I ran across this article the other day that questions your assertion by the statistics: Quote The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. The Post defines “unarmed” broadly to include such cases as a suspect in Newark, N.J., who had a loaded handgun in his car during a police chase. In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.” https://altoday.com/archives/34952-gaslighting-a-favorite-weapon-of-the-blm-movement-and-the-ways-theyre-using-it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said: 24 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: I'd venture to say the police who would be hurt would be far less in number than citizens who would be harmed. Sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils where we save the greater number of people and accept this as the best outcome. Your argument makes no sense. You have been one of the most vocal proponents of BLM, an organisation and movement that (in their words) is about ending police brutality to blacks. In 2019, 9 unarmed blacks died at the hands of the police. NINE. Just this month alone, is it now 10 black children who have been killed by blacks, many waving their BLM flags. Which one of those is the lesser of two evils? The criminals who resisted arrest and died as a result of their actions, or the innocent children who will never get to grow up and maybe accomplish greatness? I don't believe 10 black children were killed in BLM protests, and especially not by authentic BLM protesters. Reliable sources for your stats aren't available yet. But let's say it is true -- the 10 killed in the BLM protests would be far less than the number of Blacks killed by police in years past. In other words, we would need to take into account many years to ascertain which is worse, not just one year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairreLilette Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: Rarely are people taking such substances violent -- they just sit there and look at the pretty walls, or what they've become in their mind...lol. If you want to look at the root causes of why we have such a drug problem (the kind of drugs that cause people to want to escape from life) then we'd need to look at the reasons why people are so unhappy they want to get away from reality. I think we have a sick society that places value in the wrong things (materialism vs community), and also forces a lower class to remain in poverty so the wealthy can funnel the most profit to themselves. People without hope escape via drugs. I never said the LSD was violent. It's about mind expansion. The kids in L.A. want to do this and then they go on to experiment with other drugs. It's part of the drug culture lore in regards to Timothy Leary but it never ends at LSD, not in the greater Los Angeles area. LSD is one of the drugs the kids take. As far as escape, that's part of it. But there are parts of L.A. where kids just grow up in a complete drug world. I think the government doesn't care because it's cheaper to keep those POC in jail than it is to find them a good job and health care. But, I think the general government believes this about the poorer whites too. It's cheaper to keep the poor in jail than get them schooling or a job. There are parts of government that probably even believe the poorer people aren't worth it to find them all occupations or provide education and health care...just put them in jail. It's cheap. Edited July 17, 2020 by FairreLilette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 39 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: 1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said: I'd venture to say the police who would be hurt would be far less in number than citizens who would be harmed. Sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils where we save the greater number of people and accept this as the best outcome. I ran across this article the other day that questions your assertion by the statistics: Quote The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. The Post defines “unarmed” broadly to include such cases as a suspect in Newark, N.J., who had a loaded handgun in his car during a police chase. In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.” https://altoday.com/archives/34952-gaslighting-a-favorite-weapon-of-the-blm-movement-and-the-ways-theyre-using-it Thank you for my first out-loud laugh of the day. You cite an article at Alabama Today to statistically back up your claim? lolol Find more credible sources and we might have a debate. We need to stick to the important points though, which are: Would police defunding (sending some of the police departments budget to the community) eventually end up causing less crime in communities? Is the police budget bloated? Would police actually be harmed via less funding and delegating some tasks to other organizations who could more appropriately deal with them? Edited July 17, 2020 by Luna Bliss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arielle Popstar Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 53 minutes ago, FairreLilette said: If you haven't checked the statistics, most of those crimes especially including sexual abuse and murder are committed by those under the influence of a drug or alcohol or both. (Please Note: I had to change a word to sexual abuse because the censor will not let me say the r - word.) Rehab is needed badly here. Here is some statistics you might want to consider.....or not: Quote Prescription drug abuse causes the largest percentage of deaths from drug overdosing. Of the 22,400 drug overdose deaths in the US in 2005, opioid painkillers were the most commonly found drug, accounting for 38.2% of these deaths. https://www.drugfreeworld.org/course/lesson/the-truth-about-prescription-drugs/abuse-international-statistics.html And rehab is only effective for those who really want it. Very small percentage of the ones who go through some government sponsored rehab, will actually last much more then several years before they go back to their drug of choice. This is especially true for prescription based drugs because well after all the Doctor said it was ok! Edited July 17, 2020 by Arielle Popstar added link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordyn McGregor Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: I don't believe 10 black children were killed in BLM protests, and especially not by authentic BLM protesters. Reliable sources for your stats aren't available yet. But let's say it is true -- the 10 killed in the BLM protests would be far less than the number of Blacks killed by police in years past. In other words, we would need to take into account many years to ascertain which is worse, not just one year. Regardless...your argument still doesn't stand. I'd rather have a strong police force instead of a world where criminal's lives matter more than mine. A fully funded and strong police force is always the lesser of two evils in my opinion. *edit* I got my last point wrong. I have changed it to what it was meant to say. Edited July 17, 2020 by Jordan Whitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 9 minutes ago, FairreLilette said: I never said the LSD was violent. It's about mind expansion. The kids in L.A. want to do this and then they go on to experiment with other drugs. It's part of the drug culture lore in regards to Timothy Leary but it never ends at LSD, not in the greater Los Angeles area. LSD is one of the drugs the kids take. As far as escape, that's part of it. But there are parts of L.A. where kids just grow up in a complete drug world. I think the government doesn't care because it's cheaper to keep those POC in jail than it is to find them a good job and health care. But, I think the general government believes this about the poorer whites too. It's cheaper to keep the poor in jail than get them schooling or a job. There are parts of government that probably even believe the poorer people aren't worth it to find them all occupations or provide education and health care...just put them in jail. It's cheap. I'd need to see stats on that, regarding LSD being a drug which leads to other drugs. It's just a drug taken among many others and so we can't blame LSD per se for the drug problem It's not only expensive to treat people for addictions and make sure society provides jobs for them -- prisons make a lot of money by locking up people. I can't remember the stats off the top of my head, but we imprison far, far more people in the US than other countries do, and POC are imprisoned disproportionately compared to Whites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said: 17 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: I don't believe 10 black children were killed in BLM protests, and especially not by authentic BLM protesters. Reliable sources for your stats aren't available yet. But let's say it is true -- the 10 killed in the BLM protests would be far less than the number of Blacks killed by police in years past. In other words, we would need to take into account many years to ascertain which is worse, not just one year. Regardless...your argument still doesn't stand. I'd rather have a strong police force instead of a world where criminal's lives matter more than mine. Criminals are always the lesser of two evils in my opinion. How many criminals would equal the life of one police person? Is one police person more valuable than, say, 100 million criminals (or alleged criminals, as some of the murders by police are done to only suspected criminals or those they wish to dominate)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairreLilette Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: Here is some statistics you might want to consider.....or not: https://www.drugfreeworld.org/course/lesson/the-truth-about-prescription-drugs/abuse-international-statistics.html And rehab is only effective for those who really want it. Very small percentage of the ones who go through some government sponsored rehab, will actually last much more then several years before they go back to their drug of choice. This is especially true for prescription based drugs because well after all the Doctor said it was ok! I know it's believed one can only be helped if they want help. I believe it as well. The drug addict or alcoholic has to want to get off those substances for themselves and no one else. Just themselves. I think you said you went through 12-step? I am not a believer in 12-step. I believe the only person I can not do drugs nor drink for is myself, not a higher power nor anyone else, just me because I'm worth it. So, I am a bit different. However, I haven't out-right said exactly what my thinking is in regards to rehab but I'm thinking more along the lines of enforced rehab. The rehab facility may be gated and one cannot get out but it would be a far more humane place than jail and offer programs such as occupational therapy and other therapies while in rehab and on Methadone if needed for a while. And, then incentive program for those who "stay clean". Abuse of prescription drugs in illegal in California. If you carry your medication in a car or a purse in California, you need to be carrying it in the prescription bottle with the prescription on the label. But, addiction is addiction. My ex's song writing partner was heavily addicted to prescription drugs also and would visit at least 10 doctors. Prescription drugs have become controlled substances in California. But, I don't want to debate this and that about it. I have rl and sl to do. But, anyhow, a closed and enforced rehab is better than the way jail is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 8 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said: Regardless...your argument still doesn't stand. I'd rather have a strong police force instead of a world where criminal's lives matter more than mine. A fully funded and strong police force is always the lesser of two evils in my opinion. *edit* I got my last point wrong. I have changed it to what it was meant to say. You're assuming that the police budget is not bloated though. It's possible take some of the money from policing budgets and still have a strong force. Believe me, you take any organization and you'll find there's a lot of unnecessary spending. Also, this would not mean we were placing criminal lives over yours if we cut costs - it would simply mean we were reducing waste and putting the money where it might help (jobs in those communities, resources for the poor, education). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceka Cianci Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said: Here is some statistics you might want to consider.....or not: https://www.drugfreeworld.org/course/lesson/the-truth-about-prescription-drugs/abuse-international-statistics.html And rehab is only effective for those who really want it. Very small percentage of the ones who go through some government sponsored rehab, will actually last much more then several years before they go back to their drug of choice. This is especially true for prescription based drugs because well after all the Doctor said it was ok! Here is something wild.. My father was in cook county jail back in the 80's.. This is one of his drug talks.. Anyways, he was in there for a little bit and said their was this one white guy in there that all he would talk about is heroin.. He'd been in there for 6 months without a hit, went through the whole getting it out of his system and everything.. My father said he was driving him nuts in there just talking about how he can't wait to get out to meet up with his old lady and get a hit or whatever it is they get.. My father said they were in a room that had held six people altogether, so he couldn't get away from this guy always jumping into conversations and leading into talking about getting out and getting his hits. He got out the same day as my father did.. He said that guys was still talking about it all the way to his girls car.. Just that story alone set on me good about never wanting to get addicted to anything.. They have to want to quit to quit.. if they don't have the mindset to quit, nothing will work.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordyn McGregor Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 minute ago, Luna Bliss said: How many criminals would equal the life of one police person? Is one police person more valuable than, say, 100 million criminals (or alleged criminals, as some of the murders by police are done to only suspected criminals or those they wish to dominate)? "murders by police" - fricken offensive. Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human with malice aforethought As deaths at police hands tend to happen during resisting arrest incidents, that is hardly without justification or a valid excuse. Using incendiary language doesn't make your arguments any more valid. Is a police person's life more valuable than a rapist's? A murderer's? Someone who abuses children? Hell yeah it is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairreLilette Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: I'd need to see stats on that, regarding LSD being a drug which leads to other drugs. It's just a drug taken among many others and so we can't blame LSD per se for the drug problem It's not only expensive to treat people for addictions and make sure society provides jobs for them -- prisons make a lot of money by locking up people. I can't remember the stats off the top of my head, but we imprison far, far more people in the US than other countries do, and POC are imprisoned disproportionately compared to Whites. No, no more stats....talk. Get someone to talk to the kids here. Talk to them and ask them and help them. Here is a bit about Raves. If you don't believe me without stats, then you are probably going to think the Rave info from this Wiki is false, which it isn't. My word apparently is not good enough while I know personally the lives the Los Angeles drug culture has destroyed. But, you are a social worker, Luna...get people to talk to the kids here. LSD is the preferred drug by ravers but they do everything from what I have been told by my nephew. From the Wiki on Raves: While some raves may be small parties held at nightclubs or private homes, some raves have grown to immense size, such as the large festivals and events featuring multiple DJs and dance areas (e.g., the Castlemorton Common Festival in 1992). Some electronic dance music festivals have features of raves, but on a larger, often commercial scale. Raves may last for a long time, with some events continuing for twenty-four hours, and lasting all through the night. Law enforcement raids and anti-rave laws have presented a challenge to the rave scene in many countries.[3] This is due to the association of illegal drugs such as MDMA[4][5] (often referred to as a "club drug" or "party drug" along with MDA[6]), amphetamine, LSD,[4][5] GHB,[4][5] ketamine,[4][5][7] methamphetamine,[4][5] cocaine,[5] and cannabis.[8] In addition to drugs, raves often make use of non-authorized, secret venues, such as squat parties at unoccupied homes,[9] unused warehouses,[10] or aircraft hangars.[11][12] These concerns are often attributed to a type of moral panic surrounding rave culture. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rave Edited July 17, 2020 by FairreLilette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said: and if I remember right a friend of Leary's. yep, they were colleagues. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janet Voxel Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 13 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said: Regardless...your argument still doesn't stand. I'd rather have a strong police force instead of a world where criminal's lives matter more than mine. A fully funded and strong police force is always the lesser of two evils in my opinion. *edit* I got my last point wrong. I have changed it to what it was meant to say. The thing is as was pointed out, the general crime rate has been trending downward since the 90s. Meanwhile, police funding has grown since the 70's. People's perception of crime does not match the data: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/17/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/ #5 explains that police aren't even solving crimes more. I personally don't like throwing money away, by police having a bloated budget, that's what they're effectively doing. So its not even about them being fully funded, they're being over funded and its not necessary. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Love Zhaoying Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, FairreLilette said: What did he say, Love? Why do you thank him? His speech was fairly unleashed. He made reference in it to "Apple" (computer vs. knowledge vs. Adam/Eve). I thank him for encouraging / supporting / documenting LSD / hallucinogens. Because, I benefited from that. Edited July 17, 2020 by Love Zhaoying 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luna Bliss Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 4 minutes ago, Jordan Whitt said: 16 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said: How many criminals would equal the life of one police person? Is one police person more valuable than, say, 100 million criminals (or alleged criminals, as some of the murders by police are done to only suspected criminals or those they wish to dominate)? "murders by police" - fricken offensive. Murder is the unlawful killing of another human without justification or valid excuse, especially the unlawful killing of another human with malice aforethought As deaths at police hands tend to happen during resisting arrest incidents, that is hardly without justification or a valid excuse. Using incendiary language doesn't make your arguments any more valid. Is a police person's life more valuable than a rapist's? A murderer's? Someone who abuses children? Hell yeah it is! Can we bring it back to what this debate was really about, which is, if we take away the guns from police who respond to traffic stops and a few more police lose their lives because of it, is this in any way okay? (even if this would be true, as it is a hypothesis that more police would die without guns in many policing activities). Is the loss of a few police officers okay if it reduces the far greater number of citizens murdered by cops? I think this would be good thing, especially since more traffic stops don't involve criminals at all, unless you label someone driving with a burned out tail light a criminal. Or if you consider someone 'walking while Black' a criminal. Or if you consider someone a bit sloshed a criminal. Or, or, or.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordyn McGregor Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 3 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said: The thing is as was pointed out, the general crime rate has been trending downward since the 90s. Meanwhile, police funding has grown since the 70's. People's perception of crime does not match the data: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/17/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/ #5 explains that police aren't even solving crimes more. I personally don't like throwing money away, by police having a bloated budget, that's what they're effectively doing. So its not even about them being fully funded, they're being over funded and its not necessary. I understand what you are saying, and whilst I do agree that crime rates have dropped, I guess I am failing to see the over funding issue. Where is this money going? How is the police force overfunded? What is going to happen if this funding is cut? Because all I have been seeing is yahooing (by some) over the police losing funding and responsibilities and that being handed over to people not trained or equipped to deal with these situations and a sharp increase in crimes and violence since this whole situation began. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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