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1 hour ago, Janet Voxel said:

The thing about funding is, if you don't spend it. You lose it, so police departments have been spending it on things like APCs (armoured personnel carriers), SWAT teams, etc etc. So again, if the crime rate going down, police aren't solving more crimes...why throw money at something that is not a problem? 

Militarizing the police has long been a problem in the US, people don't respond well to it and its ineffective and this has been known for a long time. So why keep doing it?

https://www.princeton.edu/news/2018/08/21/militarization-police-fails-enhance-safety-may-harm-police-reputation

Maybe it's time for another approach?

Exactly

American police are running around with gear that was made for the military. Some of it gear brought back from warzones, but most of it gear that was over-manufactured due to pork barrel spending (where a Congressman gets a budget for a company in their state attached to a bill on say... dress codes for penguins... because reasons...)... and once the gear is made, homie gotta sell that stuff...

so the police get a budget than in some districts is 40-80% of the local government funds...

Often in places where, if you remove "all the random crap black folks get arrested for" all you have left is lawn mowing noise violations...

And the cops are running around with often better gear than the military... who's budget is often NOT spent on the troops... but on corporations building new jet fighters than are never used because of that pork barrel stuff again...

 

AT THE SAME TIME AS COPS ARE GETTING GEARED UP TO BATTLE TERMINATOR... Military people in warzones are being blown to bits by IEDs. The number 1 injury for BOTH male and female troops in combat is referred to as 'explosive castration'... because of the lack of proper body armor... that part of the body is just ripped right off in a shockingly frequent number of combat situations...
- Our priority there is flipped...

 

THIS is what defund the police is about...

It's about why do they need automatic assault rifles, night vision, IR scanners, tanks, amphibious assault vehicles in Colorado, Desert assault vehicles in Hawaii, IED detection equipment, land mines, and whatever else the freak they have been stockpiling for the zombie apocalypse...

Why do they need hardcore training in 'how to kill a man in 3.51 secionds...' and ZERO TRAINING in how to de-escalate a situation...

Why are regular line cops being trained in SWAT tactics.. tactics that have their place... when for example a shooter takes over a building... but certainly not when a young black woman has a flat tire on the freeway... or an 8 year old latino kid talks smack...

 

 

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This graphic, which I saw over the road at VVO, distinguishes between the political and the non-political quite well, I think  

Why it can feel hard to talk about racial inequality, and why you should do it anyway.... So, anyway, as i mentioned in a couple of other threads, the company I work for gave us a paid day off in

Racism is defined as: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. You can't change the definition to

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50 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

I did watch it fully. And the mistake was taking a fully docile man, obviously high, and attempting to force him into a car, missing the mark via sliding him across the seat and onto the ground on the other side, and then murdering him with a knee on his neck.

True, people who are high can become agitated, but rarely so when approached in the correct manner.

All i know is that Floyd had supposedly given a counterfeited 20 US dollar bill to buy a pack of cigarettes, remained on the scene and had one of them to relax and then the police was called to investigate. They weren't called in to a murder scene or something. Maybe for shoplifting they should send SWAT.

Ok he was a large man so what,  you don't have people kissing the ground on the suspicion of giving a counterfeited 20 usd or 20 euros bill to buy a pack of cigarettes. .

Maybe he had a record sure ok and maybe in another life he was Hitler or Genghis Khan but in that moment we are talking about a guy getting a pack of cigarettes.

Cmon what all of us saw was disgusting and total disrespect for human life.. for a ridiculous 20 dollar bill.

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5 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Exactly

American police are running around with gear that was made for the military. Some of it gear brought back from warzones, but most of it gear that was over-manufactured due to pork barrel spending (where a Congressman gets a budget for a company in their state attached to a bill on say... dress codes for penguins... because reasons...)... and once the gear is made, homie gotta sell that stuff...

so the police get a budget than in some districts is 40-80% of the local government funds...

Often in places where, if you remove "all the random crap black folks get arrested for" all you have left is lawn moving noise violations...

And the cops are running around with often better gear than the military... who's budget is often NOT spent on the troops... but on corporations building new jet fighters than are never used because of that pork barrel stuff again...

 

THIS is what defund the police is about...

It's about why do they need automatic assault rifles, night vision, IR scanners, tanks, amphibious assault vehicles in Colorado, Desert assault vehicles in Hawaii, IED detection equipment, land mines, and whatever else the freak they have been stockpiling for the zombie apocalypse...

Why do they need hardcore training in 'how to kill a man in 3.51 secionds...' and ZERO TRAINING in how to de-escalate a situation...

Why are regular line cops being trained in SWAT tactics.. tactics that have their place... when for example a shooter takes over a building... but certainly not when a young black woman has a flat tire on the freeway... or an 8 year old latino kid talks smack...

 

 

It's why I stopped bothering on here.

I provided research and data, and all I got back was "But...I still feel like it's not right. I don't get it." even when the research shows disturbing things like 

Quote

"Beneath these trends is a subtler pattern found in numerous studies: As African-American populations have expanded in cities, so have police departments, by spending and force size."

And that doesn't even touch on the things that happen to black people, particularly black males when they even come in contact with the criminal justice system. TLDR: Life screwed over something minor.

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17 minutes ago, Nick0678 said:

Cmon what all of us saw was disgusting and total disrespect for human life.. for a ridiculous 20 dollar bill.

We have a court system for a reason... when it comes to blacks, latinos, and native americans American Police have forgotten that... Something they're slowly exporting out onto lower-class white communities as well...

Not every activity, not even a violent crime, carries 'Death Penalty without Trial' as the legislated consequence...

JudgeDredd_UnderSiege_01Bcvr-copy.jpg

- Remember that comic book... it wasn't meant to be a training manual...

It was meant as a dark future satire of something that obviously could never actually happen in America...

And yet it has...

And in fact when it was written the author's only mistake was not knowing it was already the case for many minority communities...

Judge-Dredd-famous-quotes.jpg

Except... they're not the law, but they've been trained to lose sight of that...

(I know it's a bad movie, and it wasn't a well written comic book either... but maybe both should be taught in civics classes right now... the same ones that teach how Machiavelli's "The Prince" was written a warning against tyranny... and if you've read Machiavelli's "revenge of the nerds screenplay" you'll realize he too was also not the best author...)

 

EDIT: Reposted this because it got hidden when I referred to Machiavelli's play with a less respectful set of words...

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17 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

We have a court system for a reason... when it comes to blacks, latinos, and native americans American Police have forgotten that... Something they're slowly exporting out onto lower-class white communities as well...

Not every activity, not even a violent crime, carries 'Death Penalty without Trial' as the legislated consequence...

I can verify this is true in the case of my sister and my nephew, both white although they could have been considered middle class with husband working in aerospace and my sister working in worker's compensation claims.   I think the man thought he was judge, jury and executioner of a family wherein my nephew may have been growing a pot plant and I don't know what to do sometimes as my sister was pretty much left in shock and wouldn't speak for almost eight years, and this was after winning her court case against the man.  

Trust me that I know how some Blacks feel with the stereotyping of Black people because of growing up Polish and all the Polish jokes I had to endure.  It's degrading to put people down as others do and sometimes I wished I could have an eraser to erase all the Polish so I'd never have to hear another stupid Polish joke again because they are not funny and they are not even true.   A stereotype in that show Blue Bloods is just as horrible as the Polish jokes.

So, Jordan, a person from another country thinks reforming our police will turn out badly, I'm actually fairly optimistic it will be better but it's going to need the help of social workers and professionals to get it to work.   Even the police officers will have to undergo routine mental health check-ups.     

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24 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I can verify this is true in the case of my sister and my nephew, both white.   I think the man thought he was judge, jury and executioner of a family wherein my nephew may have been growing a pot plant and I don't know what to do sometimes as my sister was pretty much left in shock and wouldn't speak for almost eight years, and this was after winning her court case against the man.  

Trust me that I know how some Blacks feel with the stereotyping of Black people because of growing up Polish and all the Polish jokes I had to endure.  It's degrading to put people down as others do and sometimes I wished I could have an eraser to erase all the Polish so I'd never have to hear another stupid Polish joke again because they are not funny and they are not even true.   A stereotype in that show Blue Bloods is just as horrible as the Polish jokes.

I remember Polish jokes. I remember being taught them and making them. I stopped when I got old enough to realize 'polish' was an actual type of people out there...

One side of my family is white - and it was from that side that those jokes came from. Not because they were overt racists (they had fought against people in their family who were), but just because Polish jokes were a "thing" in the white community where I was in the 1970s for some random reason.

I -DO- remember people saying "Oh we can't say racist stuff about [insert group here] anymore, but we can just use Polish jokes instead. And that was after I'd realized there were a Polish people out there, so I recall thinking "but that's still racist, why does your humor even need a group to put down?"

 

PS to make you proud of your people: Polish troops fought on the side of the Haitians in the Haitian revolution. They were captured in Poland by Napoleon and sent to go kill the blacks. But as soon as they got off the boats they deserted en mass and refused to attack people they saw as 'cousins in the cause of freedom'. They actively sought out the Haitian soldiers and asked to join up. It was a staggering number of soldiers too, an entire army full of them.

As a result, at the end of the Revolution the very man who forced Haitian troops to slaughter French on the Island, granted every Polish person on the Island FULL citizenship. They were the only whites given that. Other whites who had just sold the Haitians weapons and supplies were simply allowed to remain and / or trade. But the Polish were made citizen and granted farmsteads.

That makes Polish people the first whites to field an army of soldiers in the cause of African Emancipation.

So tell a Haitian that knows history you're Polish and you've got a friend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Haitians

Some extremely racist "black nationalists" on the global scene tend to include Polish people as brothers despite otherwise being racist, because of that history.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

It's degrading to put people down as others do and sometimes I wished I could have an eraser to erase all the Polish so I'd never have to hear another stupid Polish joke again because they are not funny and they are not even true.

For some people its difficult to understand that who they are has nothing to do with what they think their history is.

For example my "surname" can be sourced back to the days of the Roman Empire and how a specific region of Italy was named at that time and people from it.

That means that for the last 2000+ years my ancestors were oppressors/oppressed, rich/poor, attackers/defenders, free people/slaves, Straight/LGB, Polytheists/Christians/Atheists, in command/under command, allies of some countries/enemies of those same countries, citizens of Italy/citizens of Empires/migrants/citizens of other countries and the list goes on.. So what is the meaning of all of the above? All of those are ideas, nothing is permanent and everything is subject to change (the last 600 years we don't even live in Italy and i am not Italian).

Who you are is defined by how you live your life and how you treat others during your lifetime. If i was to stereotype against anyone i would automatically be stereotyping against some of my own ancestors who regardless if i know them or not they are the reason that today i exist. So when it comes to ethnicity ok for a while in history your ethnicity was polish and to be honest you should be proud of it because it was a country that went through hell divided by Soviets and Nazis at the same time in WW2 when the rest of the world was busy drinking cocktails..

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17 minutes ago, Nick0678 said:

Who you are is defined by how you live your life and how you treat others during your lifetime. If i was to stereotype against anyone i would automatically be stereotyping against some of my own ancestors who regardless if i know them or not they are the reason that today i exist. So when it comes to ethnicity ok for a while in history your ethnicity was polish and to be honest you should be proud of it because it was a country that went through hell divided by Soviets and Nazis at the same time in WW2 when the rest of the world was busy drinking cocktails..

I am proud but my family has been through a lot of crap too and I wanted to move to Canada at one time.  And, it wasn't only WWII, it was World War I when my grandparents left Poland and immigrated to America in 1917 with just a steamer trunk which I inherited because I asked my Mother if I could have it.   It was my grandmother's steamer trunk she fled with from Poland in 1917.

But, there are reason's Polish people and the Irish people are called the "white blacks" of Europe and America, part of it involves religion too which I don't need to go into.  It's a little better for Polish and Irish people in America then it was but we are still not of the "wasp" culture but the "wasp" culture is beginning to accept the rich Irish and rich Polish into their circle, not that I would want to be a part of the "wasp" culture myself, no way.  I am also the daughter of Polish and French gypsies, and I don't like to talk about it for various reasons such as it doesn't feel "safe".  When are people going to be safe in this world?  I don't know.   But, we got to get it together soon.  If our government cannot provide jobs for us all, then we need a UBI system and not jail.  

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4 hours ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Except... they're not the law, but they've been trained to lose sight of that...

Well over here it was rarely a trend to buy/read comics but i have seen both versions of the movie.

That's some fantasy stuff nonsense that you can watch mostly for the fake action of it and supposedly taking place in a sort of oligarchic/fascist futuristic era.

You know what is the hypocrisy about justice, law, police, etc?

People getting forced to kiss the ground over the suspicion of buying cigarettes using a fake 20 dollar bill and eventually being murdered due to some overconfident police officers who are "protecting society from malicious people who are RESISTING ARREST..."  while at the same time billions are being stolen with stock market fraud tactics, businesses declaring bankruptcy as soon as shareholders/owners become millionaires from them and other stuff that actually destroy economy and lead thousands to poverty but everyone is a gentleman.

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8 hours ago, Janet Voxel said:

Why are police doing outreach? Are they trained to do outreach? Shouldn't someone else be doing outreach?

I thought community engagement is part of police work? It has been in countries I've lived in, quite successfully. When police are very engaged and integrated with the community, I think it helps break down the "us and them" barrier, as well as making policing a community effort. Is this not a practice in America, or do they outsource it to other organisations?

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8 hours ago, Janet Voxel said:

Cognitive dissonance folks....its a thing.

It's getting to where all I can do is laugh.....I'm not even upset anymore....the  insane length to which some will go to in order to bend the facts to fit their narrative.  And especially people who live outside the US and don't truly understand the issues specific to this continent, nor do they even have the ability to find credible links as you are able to, and so are not qualified to judge.

Anyway, I ran across the following comical example of cognitive dissonance....and I dare say it's getting as bad on this thread:

"Members of Heaven’s Gate, a religious cult, believed that as the Hale-Bopp comet passed by Earth in 1997, a spaceship would be traveling in its wake—ready to take true believers aboard. Several members of the group bought an expensive, high-powered telescope so that they might get a clearer view of the comet. They quickly brought it back and asked for a refund. When the manager asked why, they complained that the telescope was defective, that it didn’t show the spaceship following the comet. A short time later, believing that they would be rescued once they had shed their “earthly containers” (their bodies), all 39 members killed themselves.

Heaven’s Gate followers had a tragically misguided conviction, but it is an example, albeit extreme, of cognitive dissonance, the motivational mechanism that underlies the reluctance to admit mistakes or accept scientific findings—even when those findings can save our lives. This dynamic is playing out during the pandemic among the many people who refuse to wear masks or practice social distancing. Human beings are deeply unwilling to change their minds. And when the facts clash with their preexisting convictions, some people would sooner jeopardize their health and everyone else’s than accept new information or admit to being wrong.
 
Cognitive dissonance, coined by Leon Festinger in the 1950s, describes the discomfort people feel when two cognitions, or a cognition and a behavior, contradict each other. I smoke is dissonant with the knowledge that Smoking can kill me. To reduce that dissonance, the smoker must either quit—or justify smoking (“It keeps me thin, and being overweight is a health risk too, you know”). At its core, Festinger’s theory is about how people strive to make sense out of contradictory ideas and lead lives that are, at least in their own minds, consistent and meaningful. " 
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9 hours ago, Jordan Whitt said:

I am thinking about services (outreach, police in schools) being lost in a defunding.  Maybe I'm not understanding because we seem to be having two different discussions, which is why I have asked questions, because to me defunding = less police, more crime.

8 hours ago, Janet Voxel said:

Why are police doing outreach? Are they trained to do outreach? Shouldn't someone else be doing outreach? Police should be...policing crime. If crime is going down....why is their funding going up?

Yes.

This is actually the whole point.

Police should not be doing outreach, school monitoring, medical services, psych evals, running donut shops, managing traffic, handling immigration, and so on and so forth.

They should be investigating crime.

They are doing all of these other things (except maybe the donut stand), because the budgets for those other things got cut twice for every one time the police budget got raised. We've essentially fired the psychologists and replaced them with guys with assault rifles... and expected that to work out...

When I grew up, the nerdiest kid in school was the hall monitor... now it's a guy with better body armor than a soldier in Afghanistan, an assault rifle, a taser, and training on how to kill someone in seconds... how is that supposed to result in a good outcome?

 

Crime has been rapidly going down since the late 1990s. There is no proof to any cause as to why. BUT there is a correlation to lead paint. It is the only correlation that actually lines up. One generation after lead paint was introduced to America violent crime began to rise. One generation after it was outlawed, violent crime went down.

What we do no is the amount and level of firepower police have has historically had all of zero impact on crime. It can't even be matched to a correlation. Meanwhile incarceration... also can't really be matched... It IS a popular belief that prisons train people to be criminals... but actual studies find that most ex-cons don't end up being any more dangerous than the general population. Those criminals who were of the repeatedly bad nature before they went in... return to that after they get out...

All prisons do do is force ex-cons into poverty and remove their ability to vote... thereby removing the vote of a huge swath of the black male population... and they provide slave labor...

 

But police and prisons both have zero impact - good or bad - on crime.

Study after study has born that out.

 

Crime rates will be set by factors in the society - and you can only change it by changing things like the general exposure to opportunity / equality, access or lack of to weapons (this doesn't effect crime, but it affects how deadly that crime is (*)), access to housing, education, health, and so on...

I'm not even sure if they've ever proven any link between crime and how much a culture glorifies violence...

Basically many of our instincts on it are flat out wrong...

 

(*) It no longer takes guns for a population's crime to be extremely deadly. We're starting to see a new wave of specialized knives designed to cause fatal injuries that medical attention cannot fix. I think in the UK mostly - and that's been increasing the murder rate. Nowhere near US level as yet... but this is a new trend to start watching...

 

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26 minutes ago, Akane Nacht said:

I thought community engagement is part of police work? It has been in countries I've lived in, quite successfully. When police are very engaged and integrated with the community, I think it helps break down the "us and them" barrier, as well as making policing a community effort. Is this not a practice in America, or do they outsource it to other organisations?

It absolutely should be, but in the US, particularly in black communities it's not.

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7 hours ago, Nick0678 said:
8 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

I did watch it fully. And the mistake was taking a fully docile man, obviously high, and attempting to force him into a car, missing the mark via sliding him across the seat and onto the ground on the other side, and then murdering him with a knee on his neck.

True, people who are high can become agitated, but rarely so when approached in the correct manner.

Maybe he had a record sure ok and maybe in another life he was Hitler or Genghis Khan but in that moment we are talking about a guy getting a pack of cigarettes.

Cmon what all of us saw was disgusting and total disrespect for human life.. for a ridiculous 20 dollar bill.

I just have to praise you. Even though you live outside the US, and even though you've labeled yourself as conservative, you are able to see what we are dealing with here in the US is extreme (heading toward fascism really) and is not actually conservatism.  Many are so obsessed with their 'side' of things that they are trying to shove us into their paradigm of whatever conservatism means in their countries.   Anyway, thanks for having a clear mind, or taking the time to see what's really going on here.

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8 hours ago, Jordan Whitt said:

As the Washington Post has been held up as a more reliable source, i will accept I was wrong when I said 9 unarmed black men, and accept their figure of 14, which is still way less than the 48 police who lost their lives due to "felonious acts".

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/

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1 minute ago, Akane Nacht said:

I thought community engagement is part of police work? It has been in countries I've lived in, quite successfully. When police are very engaged and integrated with the community, I think it helps break down the "us and them" barrier, as well as making policing a community effort. Is this not a practice in America, or do they outsource it to other organisations?

The "Us and Them" runs deep from both the Us and the Them.. If some people know you are a cop even if you are off duty, they act different around you, even if they know you..

Myself, I think if you aren't up to something  then there is no reason to be all skidish around them.. Wanna get invited to a lot less BBQ's and parties, become a cop..hehehehe

I've dated as well as became friends with more than a few guys that became cops and some that were already cops..Some local, some county and state.. At one time or another they've all been invited to parties and things at our house..

One thing I notice and feel bad for them is, there are always those few people that a lot of times get to talking to them, it's always asking them about their job or how they feel about this going on in the news or that.. I'll usually swoop in and pull them out of there and bring them over by us then block for them for a little while.. Y'all stop Drillin him! \o/

hehehe

A lot of people know them know them, but there are always those few that just know of them more than know them..
 

 

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41 minutes ago, Akane Nacht said:

I thought community engagement is part of police work? It has been in countries I've lived in, quite successfully. When police are very engaged and integrated with the community, I think it helps break down the "us and them" barrier, as well as making policing a community effort. Is this not a practice in America, or do they outsource it to other organisations?

If you're inclined to watch...

There is a whole industry built around this. Where you have "community policing" yes it works, but often it just doesn't work like that. 

This also answers the question someone was asking earlier about how prison inmates are like slaves.

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7 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

And nobody's talking about Federal Agencies snatching people off the streets in Portland either, huh?

I noticed that in the news.

That's a highly illegal move. They don't have jurisdiction for anything there. Federal Agents do NOT have general police powers in the USA...

That's why they've been releasing anyone who asks for a lawyer - because they're opening themselves up to some serious lawsuits. Local police SHOULD consider arresting them for false arrest...

 

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Just now, Pussycat Catnap said:

I noticed that in the news.

That's a highly illegal move. They don't have jurisdiction for anything there. Federal Agents do NOT have general police powers in the USA...

That's why they've been releasing anyone who asks for a lawyer - because they're opening themselves up to some serious lawsuits. Local police SHOULD consider arresting them for false arrest...

 

Its not even that. They're literally attacking and snatching protesters off the streets, holding them and then letting them go. Since the rioting and looting stopped, the federal government is provoking protesters and even the mayor and governor are asking them to stop.

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23 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It's getting to where all I can do is laugh.....I'm not even upset anymore....the  insane length to which some will go to in order to bend the facts to fit their narrative.  And especially people who live outside the US and don't truly understand the issues specific to this continent, nor do they even have the ability to find credible links as you are able to, and so are not qualified to judge.

The thing is people are telling them what's happening. You say A, they say B, you say C, they say B, you say but in the US....D, they say Yeah but where I live...B, you say but we're talking about the US.....E and here's some facts. They say, yeah, ok...but B. You say here's some more facts so F. They say ok, I understand that, but still....B. I'm glad I don't live over there...LOL...B anyway....all I'm trying to do is understand, but you really aren't giving me any facts.

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22 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

Where you have "community policing" yes it works, but often it just doesn't work like that.

Are there any examples of where it has worked? When policing works well in your country, what do they do right? 

I'm wondering what the next steps would be, after all that's happened recently, and the end goal of what a good system looks like.

ps. I'll stop asking if it bothers Americans that I do so. I was genuinely curious as this makes international news 🤷‍♀️

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15 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

The thing is people are telling them what's happening. You say A, they say B, you say C, they say B, you say but in the US....D, they say Yeah but where I live...B, you say but we're talking about the US.....E and here's some facts. They say, yeah, ok...but B. You say here's some more facts so F. They say ok, I understand that, but still....B. I'm glad I don't live over there...LOL...B anyway....all I'm trying to do is understand, but you really aren't giving me any facts.

500 years of that though... and folks are still not hearing a single thing being said, and just coming back with "why don't you just say it this way instead of doing that?", then changing the this and the that to something else when people do exactly what they asked for...

 

 

 

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