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8 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Here's a little more information, Drake (see, I finally spelled your name right)    :)

 

"The year the Civil War ended, the U.S. amended the Constitution to prohibit slavery and involuntary servitude. But it purposefully left in one big loophole for people convicted of crimes.

The 13th Amendment, ratified in 1865, says: “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.” Scholars, activists and prisoners have linked that exception clause to the rise of a prison system that incarcerates Black people at more than five times the rate of white people, and profits off of their unpaid or underpaid labor."

https://www.history.com/news/13th-amendment-slavery-loophole-jim-crow-prisons

~~~~~~~~~

And...the definition of slavery:

"Slavery is any system in which principles of property law are applied to people, allowing individuals to own, buy and sell other individuals, as a de jure form of property.[1] An enslaved person is unable to withdraw unilaterally from such an arrangement and works without remuneration. Many scholars now use the term chattel slavery to refer to this specific sense of legalized, de jure slavery. In a broader sense, however, the word slavery may also refer to any situation in which an individual is de facto forced to work against their own will. Scholars also use the more generic terms such as unfree labour or forced labour to refer to such situations.[2] However, and especially under slavery in broader senses of the word, slaves may have some rights and protections according to laws or customs."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery

 

Prisoners are not forced to work. They are paid for any work they do. Keep in mind they are fed better than any low income citizen, get a bed, heat and AC in some prisons, access to exercise equipment, books and online classes to further their education, all this on our dime. But hey, they must be slaves, right? If i was black i would be fuming at FairreLilette for her constant comparison of the two. You choose to break the law and go to prison. Pretty sure no one CHOSE to become a slave. 

ETA thanks for getting my name right :)

Edited by Drake1 Nightfire
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This graphic, which I saw over the road at VVO, distinguishes between the political and the non-political quite well, I think  

Why it can feel hard to talk about racial inequality, and why you should do it anyway.... So, anyway, as i mentioned in a couple of other threads, the company I work for gave us a paid day off in

Racism is defined as: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. You can't change the definition to

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8 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

Prisoners are not forced to work. They are paid for any work they do. Keep in mind they are fed better than any low income citizen, get a bed, heat and AC in some prisons, access to exercise equipment, books and online classes to further their education, all this on our dime. But hey, they must be slaves, right? If i was black i would be fuming at FairreLilette for her constant comparison of the two. You choose to break the law and go to prison. Pretty sure no one CHOSE to become a slave. 

But they are forced to work in some cases -- examples of this were already provided. And when paid the amount is ridiculously low.

I do understand your reluctance to make what could be hyperbolic comparisons, as they can sometimes demean those who experienced a much more difficult situation. But there are many similarities between prisoners and slaves which such comparisons point to, and many well-respected scholars refer to the prison industrial complex that confines Blacks at higher rates (often unfairly, as they are judged more severely due to bias) as a "modern day form of slavery".

 

Edited by Luna Bliss
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6 minutes ago, Drake1 Nightfire said:

You choose to break the law and go to prison. 

Not all people "choose" this.  The drugs and alcoholism did though.  

I feel you are blind.  

May I ask that you please not quote me at all.  Please?  Thank you, I'd appreciate it.  

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19 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

as they can sometimes demean those who experienced a much more difficult situation. But there are many similarities between prisoners 

It is demeaning to be a slave in prison.  

There is a kind of crazy lady who walks around my building saying "I'd rather be in prison and be somebodies b-word (aka a sex slave if you know the word I mean, it's five letters and starts with a b b****) than live in this dump".  Exact quote too.  She said she went to prison for drunk driving and driving with a suspended license.  She is a neighborhood alcoholic whose sister-in-law takes care of her since her husband died.   She needs help but it's not prison.  

EDIT:  And, furthermore, she needs to be in rehab and to start dealing with her husband's death.  She DOES NOT need prison.  She needs help.  

Edited by FairreLilette
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25 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

There is a kind of crazy lady who walks around my building saying "I'd rather be in prison and be somebodies b-word (aka a sex slave if you know the word I mean, it's five letters and starts with a b b****) than live in this dump".

Perhaps she's just being hyperbolic?

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6 hours ago, Gage Wirefly said:

Fascism, really? That is absolutely absurd, and it always sounds absurd no matter who I hear it from about the U.S.  A large tenant of fascism is forcible suppression of opposing views. 

In the U.S. we are free to criticize our government without retribution, we can express our opinions , so no we are not 'heading' toward fascism. The problem in my opinion are those who want single party rule without opposition. That is a very dangerous space that should be avoided .

Fascism is caused by separating populations into 'us vs them', by demonizing certain groups. This demonization is the root cause, and the taking away of rights and free speech can be the result.  I see our country of late as become very polarized and demonizing 'other' (to be fair, being done on both sides). But what concerns me most is the encouragement of the hatred of 'other' from higher positions of government, and this is what causes me to acknowledge this fundamental tenant of fascism which I see increasing in the US, and fear the slippery slope which leads to its full expression.

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6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Perhaps she's just being hyperbolic?

No, she's been drunk and out of control.  She hates life because her husband died.  She sometimes says the statement I quoted above and then says "anything is better than this" or "anything is better than life without my husband".  I wasn't going to bring her into it because her and I talk as friends but Drake has brought it up twice now that prisoners aren't slaves.   

Her statement still says "I'd rather be in prison and be somebody's b-word".  That is demeaning and means it exists, and she has told me she has been in prison for drunk driver and driver with a suspended license.  She hates life.  She hates living without her husband.  She is depressed and alcohol is a depressant.  She just keeps making herself more depressed.   And, it's rough for us to be so helpless.

But, this disease can be beat.  I have beaten it for a long time now, I lost count.  But, one women in my building is 39 years sober and another lady I just met recently in my neighborhood is 50 years sober.  It is possible to live a long time in sobriety.  

Edited by FairreLilette
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Context: Mayor London Breed is an African American San Francisco native who grew up in the projects and worked her way up with 2 degrees from the prestigious U.C. system. She became Mayor after the prior Mayor Ed Lee died in office (brain annurism I believe), was quickly replaced by the city council, but then elected back in by the public.

I believe she's the City's second African American Mayor. Willie Brown, an icon of California politics, was the first in the 1990s.

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/London-Breed-white-progressives-police-reform-15417819.php

 

Quote

Breed stated that while she's happy more white Americans are now supportive of the Black Lives Matter movement — recent polling shows upwards of 60% of white Americans support the protests and calls for police reform — she has "a real problem with the takeover of the movement by white people."

"I want people to respect the opinions and feelings of Black people and allow us to decide what is in our best interest," Breed told Vogue. "I talk about the plan to reduce the police budget and reallocate those resources to the African American community, and a large number of non-Blacks reached out to tell me what I should do for the Black community. Then, they say what their community deserves because of their challenges as well. That really bothered me. The Black community [of San Francisco] is capable of speaking for ourselves and deciding what’s in our best interest."

Polling from the Pew Research Center has shown that just 22% of African-Americans want police funding "decreased a lot," with the overwhelming majority favoring small decreases, no change, or even increases. Breed's proposal to reallocate some funding was met with pushback from some white progressives who accused her of not going far enough. This prompted protests at Breed's home, protests she was not happy about.

"The people who came out to my home last time, they were all white and wearing masks and walking with these 'firework sticks' down the street chanting 'Black Lives Matter!'" she said. "But then they get to my house and start shooting these fireworks off and aiming them at my window and banging on the gate and calling me names to come outside. It was like, what? In the projects, when you come to somebody’s house, you are coming to get your butt beat. Because I will come out and throw some grits on you if you don’t back up!"

Breed went on to accuse white progressives of projecting beliefs onto African-Americans, and stated that many "progressive policies" historically backed by whites in San Francisco have not worked for the city's Black residents.

"What’s happening in San Francisco now, and has for so many years, is you have a progressive movement made up of people who are mostly white and feel that they know what’s in the best interest of Black people," she said. "I’m over that ... half the policies pushed in San Francisco are 'progressive policies' that don’t work for Black people. Because, if they did, why are things far worse for Black people here? In San Francisco, a city where less than 5 to 6% of the population is African American and yet we are disproportionately overrepresented in everything that’s bad: high school dropouts, arrests, homelessness. You name it."

Being 'Woke' is NOT the same as being Progressive or even Liberal. Historically the two division of white politics have approached people of color in two different but both hostile manners:

Liberal: We know what is best for you and will do it to you under our guidance and control. We view you as children that must be cared for, protected, coddled.

Conservative: We will use you as slaves or kill you. We view you as a threat that must be contained, limited, controlled, neutralized.

- While Liberals are the better pill, it's still not a friendly choice.

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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3 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

EDIT:  And, furthermore, she needs to be in rehab and to start dealing with her husband's death.  She DOES NOT need prison.  She needs help.  

There are grief support groups out there that can be very helpful and non-threatening for newly bereaved people. Perhaps suggesting such an avenue to her might be of help. Once she tones down on that and seeing the benefits, she might be open to going further.

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27 minutes ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

... then they get to my house and start shooting these fireworks off and aiming them at my window and banging on the gate and calling me names to come outside. It was like, what?..

great.. you got racists on one side and patronizing idiots on the other.

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1 hour ago, Pussycat Catnap said:

Context: Mayor London Breed is an African American San Francisco native who grew up in the projects and worked her way up with 2 degrees from the prestigious U.C. system. She became Mayor after the prior Mayor Ed Lee died in office (brain annurism I believe), was quickly replaced by the city council, but then elected back in by the public.

I believe she's the City's second African American Mayor. Willie Brown, an icon of California politics, was the first in the 1990s.

https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/London-Breed-white-progressives-police-reform-15417819.php

 

Being 'Woke' is NOT the same as being Progressive or even Liberal. Historically the two division of white politics have approached people of color in two different but both hostile manners:

Liberal: We know what is best for you and will do it to you under our guidance and control

Conservative: We will use you as slaves or kill you

- While Liberals are the better pill, it's still not a friendly choice.

 

I like her..

I was saying it in either this thread or the last one, why are white people in there looting  as well as out front leading in some of these marches with only a few blacks in some of  the marches?

First thing I thought of was Malcolm X talking about the Fox and the Wolf having the same appetite.. Wanna help, help, but don't start taking the lead..

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3 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Fascism is caused by separating populations into 'us vs them', by demonizing certain groups. This demonization is the root cause, and the taking away of rights and free speech can be the result.  I see our country of late as become very polarized and demonizing 'other' (to be fair, being done on both sides). But what concerns me most is the encouragement of the hatred of 'other' from higher positions of government, and this is what causes me to acknowledge this fundamental tenant of fascism which I see increasing in the US, and fear the slippery slope which leads to its full expression.

To be fair its largely from the New Left.  Lets at least be honest about it.

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21 minutes ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I like her..

I was saying it in either this thread or the last one, why are white people in there looting  as well as out front leading in some of these marches with only a few blacks in some of  the marches?

First thing I thought of was Malcolm X talking about the Fox and the Wolf having the same appetite.. Wanna help, help, but don't start taking the lead..

I don't think there is much doubt that there is a bunch of white ones out there who support BLM simply for the Marxist agenda and are rah rah for where they hope these protests will lead. They are more interested in the state of anarchy so as to piggyback the movement to a state where everyone is a minority and a slave to the state. To that sort, it is immaterial whether PoC is pulled up to a state of equality or everyone else gets pulled down to bring about the same thing.

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2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

I don't think there is much doubt that there is a bunch of white ones out there who support BLM simply for the Marxist agenda and are rah rah for where they hope these protests will lead. They are more interested in the state of anarchy so as to piggyback the movement to a state where everyone is a minority and a slave to the state. To that sort, it is immaterial whether PoC is pulled up to a state of equality or everyone else gets pulled down to bring about the same thing.

I think it's great when people want to be a help..I just get leery of when they start moving to the drivers seat..

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27 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

white ones out there who support BLM simply for the Marxist agenda

Not even them know who they are, what Marxist agenta? Carl Marx was the father of Communism.

They are "supposedly" Anarchists and i am certain if you ask them who was Kropotkin or Mikhail Bakunin (founder of Anarchism) probably never heard of them.

Anyway they exist in every country and same thing happens. A peaceful protest turns to a warzone and looting begins.

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21 minutes ago, Nick0678 said:

Not even them know who they are, what Marxist agenta? Carl Marx was the father of Communism.

They are "supposedly" Anarchists and i am certain if you ask them who was Kropotkin or Mikhail Bakunin (founder of Anarchism) probably never heard of them.

Anyway they exist in every country and same thing happens. A peaceful protest turns to a warzone and looting begins.

Patrisse Cullors, co-founder of the Black Lives Matter movement in her own words,  She admits she and her cohorts are 'trained Marxists', so yeah . The movement is in fact Marxist in ideology . Admission begins at the 7 minute mark.

 

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15 minutes ago, Gage Wirefly said:

Patrisse Cullors, co-founder of the Black Lives Matter movement in her own words,  She admits she and her cohorts are 'trained Marxists', so yeah . The movement is in fact Marxist in ideology . Admission begins at the 7 minute mark.

 

Sure maybe she is but i was replying to this..

1 hour ago, Arielle Popstar said:

They are more interested in the state of anarchy

Marxists/Communists are not Anarchists. Actually here sometimes you could see Communists and Anarchists break each others heads in protests.We have everything you like.

You name it we got it. Of course they are both Leftists and i am certain there aren't any of those at all in North Korea. Kim just ... wouldn't allow it..

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2 hours ago, Ceka Cianci said:

I like her..

I was saying it in either this thread or the last one, why are white people in there looting  as well as out front leading in some of these marches with only a few blacks in some of  the marches?

First thing I thought of was Malcolm X talking about the Fox and the Wolf having the same appetite.. Wanna help, help, but don't start taking the lead..

Yeah.

Remember. The Reservation System was created by Progressive Liberals to 'care for a childlike primitive race that couldn't manage their own affairs...'

Likewise 'Urban Renewal' created the 'Housing Projects' by taking land away from minorities with Emenent Domain because they were not 'mature enough to manage their own affairs' so putting them in centralized government run housing apartment complexes was done to help 'uplift and provide for' them...

- Two "Liberal Policies" done to "help" minorities...

Meanwhile in the 1890s you had Conservatives like Frank Baum (Author of the Wizard of Oz) writing that 'there will never be peace with savages, now that we have them all under control, we must wipe them out to the last man woman and child so this threat cannot rise again...'

And you had Conservatives in the era of Urban Renewal building up the Prison Industrial Complex to 'contain the threat' of minorities...

 

Basically... enemies on both sides.

 

People of Color don't vote with the liberals because we like them... we vote with them because it's a choice between being coddled or being killed... you go with the lesser enemy...

 

Edited by Pussycat Catnap
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55 minutes ago, Gage Wirefly said:

Patrisse Cullors, co-founder of the Black Lives Matter movement in her own words,  She admits she and her cohorts are 'trained Marxists', so yeah . The movement is in fact Marxist in ideology . Admission begins at the 7 minute mark.

there is a distinct difference between a movement and a cadre. A movement contains people from different political and social persuasions who unite around a singular circumstance to effect changes to that circumstance. When that change is realised then the movement dissipates as people move separately and singularly to the next circumstance

examples of movements: Climate Change, Me Too, BLM, Religious Freedom, Right To Life, etc

cadres on the other hand are people bound to a programme of change to multiple circumstances where the people so bound have a common socio-political philosophy they apply to all circumstances

examples of cadres: Republican Party, Democratic Party, Marxist Party, Green Party, Families Party, Libertarian Party, etc

cadres (trained and organised) do start movements but the nature of movements (because of the ideological diversity beyond the singular circumstance of the people participating) is such that the movements can't be controlled in the same way that cadres can

hat Patrisse Cullors is a member of a marxist cadre, doesn't make the BLM movement marxist. To suggest that it is, shows a misunderstanding of what movements are  

Edited by Mollymews
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3 hours ago, Gage Wirefly said:
6 hours ago, Luna Bliss said:

Fascism is caused by separating populations into 'us vs them', by demonizing certain groups. This demonization is the root cause, and the taking away of rights and free speech can be the result.  I see our country of late as become very polarized and demonizing 'other' (to be fair, being done on both sides). But what concerns me most is the encouragement of the hatred of 'other' from higher positions of government, and this is what causes me to acknowledge this fundamental tenant of fascism which I see increasing in the US, and fear the slippery slope which leads to its full expression.

To be fair its largely from the New Left.  Lets at least be honest about it.

Whether it comes from the left or the right...from above or below...from the alternate dimensions surrounding us or merging within us....we must be ever-vigilant for it's arrival and resist. Not being able to post racist jokes @ Facebook would be the least of your worries.

I have heard that “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross”, but a more detailed description follows:

Political scientist Dr. Larwench Britt studied the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile) and found they all had 14 elements in common. He calls these the identifying characteristics of fascism, and I have to admit I'm a little worried after reading the characteristics:

The 14 characteristics are:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
    Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2.  Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
    Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3.  Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
    The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military
    Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism
    The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

6. Controlled Mass Media
    Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7.  Obsession with National Security
    Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8.  Religion and Government are Intertwined
    Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9.  Corporate Power is Protected
    The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed
    Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
    Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
    Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13  Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
    Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14  Fraudulent Elections
    Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

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34 minutes ago, Mollymews said:

cadres (trained and organised) do start movements but the nature of movements (because of the ideological diversity beyond the singular circumstance of the people participating) is such that the movements can't be controlled in the same way that cadres can

hat Patrisse Cullors is a member of a marxist cadre, doesn't make the BLM movement marxist. To suggest that it is, shows a misunderstanding of what movements are  

Do you not think that if the BLM movement had been started and organized by a Capitalist group or a Christian coalition or a Black supremacist group, the tone and nature of the movement would have been different? I really can't see that one's ideology especially if one is steeped in it, would not have an effect on the nature of the movement that is birthed by that person.

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4 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

There are grief support groups out there that can be very helpful and non-threatening for newly bereaved people. Perhaps suggesting such an avenue to her might be of help. Once she tones down on that and seeing the benefits, she might be open to going further.

I have.  We have all kinds of free groups that are held at our local hospitals that run the gamut from dealing with addiction, diabetes, anxiety, depression, plus day programs for therapy including anger management, just all kinds of things I can't quite remember right now, but there is a bit of everything and bereavement and loss is dealt with too whether you go for some free evening meetings or a full half day outpatient program, and all our local hospitals have them.   She says "no".  And, then I get the "I don't care anymore".  But, thanks for the suggestion, just not everyone will go, and especially when alcohol itself is fueling her deeper into depression.   I've talked to a few people even to see if they could help me talk her into it.  We haven't had any success, yet. 

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2 minutes ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Do you not think that if the BLM movement had been started and organized by a Capitalist group or a Christian coalition or a Black supremacist group, the tone and nature of the movement would have been different? I really can't see that one's ideology especially if one is steeped in it, would not have an effect on the nature of the movement that is birthed by that person.

consider

is the Right To Life movement, capitalist; given that Edward Golden, the founding president of the incorporated National Right To Life Committee (NRLC) was a capitalist, and would the fact that he was effect the nature of this movement ?

going back further; is the Right To Life movement, catholic ? Given that prior to incorporation the NRLC was led by catholic Father James McHugh

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