Are You Showing Support for Black Lives Matter in Second Life?

[Beth Macbain]

13 minutes ago, Evah Baxton said:

There were live videos of white people spraying BLM on buildings (during peaceful protesting) and black people approaching them to say "Stop! We don't need your help!".

I'd ask all who are equating BLM and rioting/looters, to please read this thread and watch the posted videos. There are threads like this from all over the country.

Twitter Thread

[Gatogateau]

4 minutes ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

I mean the phrase and hashtag all lives matter was invented to downplay black lives matter. It was started in bad faith and comes with too much baggage to serve any positive purpose now. Anyone using it innocently should stop.

Again, that is confusing the group with the statement/belief. And I have strong beliefs why I will continue to say all lives matter, even if told to stop. There are a lot of injustices in the world. If someone is so hung up on political correctness and buzz words as to ignore what is being actually stated, I cannot help that. I write what I mean. If other liberals want to "take out" a relatively like-minded person for it, so be it.

[Gatogateau]

1 minute ago, Beth Macbain said:

I'd ask all who are equating BLM and rioting/looters, to please read this thread and watch the posted videos. There are threads like this from all over the country.

Twitter Thread

What you and Evah are saying is so important. And Scylla. And others. BLM as a group does not condone violence and crime. That others are subverting their movements is outrageous but effective. The world is full of racists, right-wing extremists, and they not only have the support of the POTUS but he inflames them. Their tactics are getting more "sophisticated" from the obvious cross burnings. Wilfully ignorant people will eat this up with a spoon. Wilfully ignorant people vote.

[Selene Gregoire]

10 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

OMG, Fairre... please stop. It isn't just in Chicago and Louisiana

I grew up in Lousyana. I spent the better part of my first 33 years of life trying to get out of that state and stay out. I finally succeeded in 2006. There is no way in hell I would ever move back to that state.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Selene Gregoire

[Beth Macbain]

The fact that this thread is full of mostly white people from countries that aren't the US is really illustrative of the problem. 

If you aren't black and living in the US, you don't know what it feels like (and neither do I) to be a black person in the US. 

LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE SPEAK. Listen to the stories. Believe the stories. 

If the people on this thread can't even agree that racism in America is a real thing, a systemic thing, and a deadly, dangerous thing, then we've not even taken the god damn first step. 

For today, it does not matter what the reasoning and neurological makeup of racists is. For today, it does not matter that, of course, all lives matter. For today, white voices need to STFU, including mine. 

Today we need to listen and learn. 

No buts. We need to shut our damn mouths and listen to the black community in the US and their truths. 

After that, maybe we can start fixing things.

[Amina Sopwith]

27 minutes ago, Gatogateau said:

I think you are being guilty of "broad brushing" here by saying anyone who is of the belief and will stand by it by saying it that all lives matter are guilty of pure deflection.

It's not what I said, although to be fair I made this point mostly in earlier posts that will have been drowned out by now. I am aware, and have explicitly stated, that well-intentioned people can most certainly be drawn into this position because, well, "all lives matter" - who can argue with that, right? 

But at its core, the actual argument itself is fallacious and exists to deflect from the fact that the black lives are where the focus is currently needed. If nothing else, we know this because it doesn't come up until Black Lives Matter - which, I have already explained, absolutely does NOT mean that other lives don't - makes its presence known. Obviously they make it sound sweet and easy and moral; that's how you get recruits. All Lives Matter! How could anyone disagree? (Nobody does!)

Lillith took offence at the cartoon because she thought it was an attack on her personally. I explained that it was not: it was an attack on the reasoning behind the campaign and the arguments that are so often given in its favour (and which have been used on here too). But the campaign, at its core, DOES exist as pure deflection, as evidenced by the fact that it never existed in its own right and doesn't turn up until there's a breast cancer fundraiser (I read your comments on this but I think it still holds as an analogy).

I am happy to repeat that this certainly does NOT mean that every person who supports ALM is bad or doesn't care about racism, but I would repeat that such people are misguided as to the actual reasoning and intention behind the campaign. The very fact that so many of them keep saying, "Well, I'M not racist, I judge everyone on merit!" as if this is in any way the point is kind of telling. The problem isn't whether one is personally a racist or not. The problem is in being complicit in drowning out calls to protect the people who need it most, even if one honestly believes it's the right thing to do. I'm trying to explain why that is.
 

[Selene Gregoire]

2 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

If the people on this thread can't even agree that racism in America is a real thing, a systemic thing, and a deadly, dangerous thing, then we've not even taken the god damn first step. 

Thank you so much for this.

[Gatogateau]

13 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

OMG, Fairre... please stop.

...

I ask you to start Googling and education yourself, please., or stop making these bizarre anecdotal statements. 

 

Regardless of the topic/thread, I hear your pain, Beth. ^^^ This. Again. I'm avoiding reading the actual posts because my blood pressure doesn't need to pop my eyeballs out, but of course I see the quotes and replies (true for several people). 

And sadly, the notion of "stopping" and "education" fails to take hold. This is a gentle nudge, and not at Fairre.

[kiramanell]

3 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

The fact that this thread is full of mostly white people from countries that aren't the US is really illustrative of the problem. 

 

Yikes. Guilty as charged. 😬

I agree with everything you said, though. Especially the whole 'place and time' thingy.

[Selene Gregoire]

I wish Lindal had posted this in this thread.

 

[BeautifulXu]

19 hours ago, Lillith Hapmouche said:

The shirt-wearing approach or the looting and setting things ablaze way?

oh, we we're not talking about the police yet.

[Luna Bliss]

Lindal knows better than to walk into minefields!   

[kiramanell]

21 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

OMG, Fairre... please stop. It isn't just in Chicago and Louisiana. In Kentucky, where less than 10% of the entire population is black, 18% of COVID deaths have been black people, and that's not just a funny coincidence. 

Oh, wait, no... here you go. Why Coronavirus is Deadly for Blacks in Los Angeles

You live in a bubble. I get the impression that you have never been outside LA County. Were black people hosed down in Alabama 40 years ago? Yes. Are they now? No. That doesn't mean that racism isn't alive and well. I do not think you actually know what racism is. It's not as simple as burning a cross in a black family's yard. It's not as simple as a white cop literally crushing a black man to death beneath his knee. If it were that simple, we wouldn't be having these conversations.

Since you believe racism isn't deeply ingrained in Los Angeles, I ask you to start Googling and education yourself, please., or stop making these bizarre anecdotal statements. Here's your first lesson. Black, Homeless, and Burdened by LA's Legacy of Racism.

 

I was a mite bewildered to hear Fairre go on about Native Americans and the casinos they've been 'given' (whereas I'm pretty sure they worked to acquire those themselves *boggle*), but I honestly believe she means to do right (but rarely gets it right, so to speak).

[Gatogateau]

4 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

I am happy to repeat that this certainly does NOT mean that every person who supports ALM is bad or doesn't care about racism, but I would repeat that such people are misguided as to the actual reasoning and intention behind the campaign.

AUGH!!! Amina, I adore you. But, geez. 

Ok, here's another version of my points. Saying "all lives matter" in lower case, is not the same thing as supporting ALM the movement. Saying all lives matters does NOT mean that (all or maybe even most) people are misguided and/or supporting a CAMPAIGN. I don't know about Paul. I read him, and a few others, through MY lenses. They are not YOUR lenses. So I read the words IN CONTEXT of what ELSE was being written.

WORDS matter. Context matters. If someone had come in here and blasted, "BLM is a joke because ALM!" then, yeah, context and that person would have undoubtedly been guilty as charged. But there is a lot more in the discussion besides catchy slogans ON EITHER SIDE. 

IF people had come in here and simply said "all lives matter" that is rather a "duh" statement. But I didn't see that either. I saw some people writing a bit more about why they were saying that, and I didn't see it equate into BLM sucks. What I am seeing is rather a group think of acceptable PC-ness, that if you don't phrase things a certain way then you can't possibly have a valid thought, are deluded, or probably brain damaged.  Life and its inequalities are a lot more complex than slogans and simple solutions. There are many paths up the mountain, but to deny they are going up the mountain, to the same destination, is detrimental.

[Mollymews]

23 minutes ago, Gatogateau said:

as a layperson not a legal expert, understand that a lot of it is how the law is written

yes. Is incumbent on us as citizens to have some general understanding of how the law works

as a lay person, not as you say as any kind of legal expert

as citizens (lay people) we are called on to act as jurists to determine guilt or innocence. The judge (being the legal expert) will instruct us on what the law means in each particular case, but having some general understanding of the laws that govern us is I think a duty of citizenship 

[Lyssa Greymoon]

23 minutes ago, Gatogateau said:

Again, that is confusing the group with the statement/belief.

I don't think so, but for the sake of argument, let's go with that. The endgame is still the same. Using the same phrase that racists use to dog whistle to each other is probably not the best way to express the sentiment.

[Selene Gregoire]

7 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

 

I was a mite bewildered to hear Fairre go on about Native Americans and the casinos they've been 'given' (whereas I'm pretty sure they worked to acquire those themselves *boggle*), but I honestly believe she means to do right (but rarely gets it right, so to speak).

Quote

"We're not business casinos, we're community casinos," Salsman told ABC News. "Although I feel bad for the industry, when a casino goes down in Las Vegas, it's different. Tribal casinos are taking those casino revenues and putting them right back into the community.

"This is a loss of real services, and real human services, to our people. It's not only a money issue, it's a humanitarian issue, and it really hurts."

Meanwhile, in many states, the virus has disproportionately hit Native Americans. With comparatively higher rates of diabetes, asthma and high blood pressure, tribal members who become infected are more at risk for a serious case. Meanwhile, poverty and close living quarters on reservations can allow COVID-19 to spread more quickly.

 

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/tribes-casinos-fund-government-doesnt-now-closed/story?id=70371212

[Gatogateau]

21 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

For today, it does not matter what the reasoning and neurological makeup of racists is. For today, it does not matter that, of course, all lives matter. For today, white voices need to STFU, including mine. 

Today we need to listen and learn. 

No buts. We need to shut our damn mouths and listen to the black community in the US and their truths. 

After that, maybe we can start fixing things.

While I "thank you'd" your post, I don't entirely agree with this part. First and foremost "we need to listen and learn." Amen. Full stop. Agree. If nothing else happens, this would be huge. People don't listen. They are so caught up in their own little belief systems that they just don't process. So if the only way someone can learn is to shut up, then shut up.

Also, yeah, you can't talk AND listen at the same time.

BUT you can listen and then talk and then listen again and then talk. White people should be talking, but it should be a conversation. We aren't really having the conversation, we're having soliloquies. 

[Gatogateau]

5 minutes ago, Lyssa Greymoon said:

I don't think so, but for the sake of argument, let's go with that. The endgame is still the same. Using the same phrase that racists use to dog whistle to each other is probably not the best way to express the sentiment.

I get that. I get what you are saying. I'm saying you cannot throw out words in context just because a phrase you don't like is being used. I wrote more on this to Amina so I won't go on about it. If it were just to say "all lives matter" and drop it at that, without more discourse, you're spot on. To castigate the use of "all lives matter" in the context of (hopefully) a more nuanced discussion is detrimental and not the best way to converse.

[Beth Macbain]

1 minute ago, Gatogateau said:

BUT you can listen and then talk and then listen again and then talk. White people should be talking, but it should be a conversation. We aren't really having the conversation, we're having soliloquies. 

Tomorrow.

Today is not our day. The conversation comes after we listen.

2 minutes ago, Gatogateau said:

I get that. I get what you are saying. I'm saying you cannot throw out words in context just because a phrase you don't like is being used. I wrote more on this to Amina so I won't go on about it. If it were just to say "all lives matter" and drop it at that, without more discourse, you're spot on. To castigate the use of "all lives matter" in the context of (hopefully) a more nuanced discussion is detrimental and not the best way to converse.

Please read this: Why You Need to Stop Saying "All Lives Matter"

[kiramanell]

29 minutes ago, Gatogateau said:

Again, that is confusing the group with the statement/belief. And I have strong beliefs why I will continue to say all lives matter, even if told to stop. There are a lot of injustices in the world. If someone is so hung up on political correctness and buzz words as to ignore what is being actually stated, I cannot help that. I write what I mean. If other liberals want to "take out" a relatively like-minded person for it, so be it.

 

It really pains me to hear you say stuff like "If other liberals want to "take out" a relatively like-minded person for it, so be it." Not because I feel hurt by it, personally, but because I, for my part, have absolutely no intention of doing any such thing, ever.  Hell, I support your position, in full, that every life matters. And I celebrate your every right and conviction to hold on to that, and defend it. And I will help you do it, even.

It's just, yeah, I see a huge difference between All Lives Matter, the movement/hashtag, and all lives matter, the thought, as it were. And I also firmly believe you, quite obviously, want no part of the former.

[Gatogateau]

5 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Tomorrow.

Today is not our day. The conversation comes after we listen.

Please read this: Why You Need to Stop Saying "All Lives Matter"

I disagree. I'm allowed. On both parts. Sorry, PC think is just as bad as Cheeto think in a lot of ways. My voice matters.

ETA: I'm rather offended that again my intelligence is being questioned, and/or my intents, because I don't follow the allowed, accepted PC jargon and have to be educated by reading, yet another article, on how to speak "correctly." No.

Edited June 2, 2020 by Gatogateau

[Luna Bliss]

3 minutes ago, Gatogateau said:

6 minutes ago, Beth Macbain said:

Tomorrow.

Today is not our day. The conversation comes after we listen.

Please read this: Why You Need to Stop Saying "All Lives Matter"

I disagree. I'm allowed. On both parts. Sorry, PC think is just as bad as Cheeto think in a lot of ways. My voice matters.

I say, young woman, some sort of deficiency rests in this analysis.

[Gatogateau]

Back in another thread, a comment was made about using the word "girls." There was a kerfuffle. @Scylla Rhiadra said something that was spot on, and I should go find the quote, but I'm too lazy. Basically it was eye-rolling about feminists trying to out feminist each other. This is applying here. In that situation "girl" which can absolutely be used as a put down, wasn't used in that situation, and the word "girl" was taken out of context for a rather shrill bit of one-upmanship on who could be the most PC. The analogy is apt in this thread, too.

Apparently there is only One True Way to have a Liberal White Guilt and White Privilege hand-wringing discussion about the very real problem of racism in the USA. All others need not apply. I find it ridiculous and self-serving. YMMV obviously.

[Amina Sopwith]

13 minutes ago, Gatogateau said:

AUGH!!! Amina, I adore you. But, geez. 

Ok, here's another version of my points. Saying "all lives matter" in lower case, is not the same thing as supporting ALM the movement. Saying all lives matters does NOT mean that (all or maybe even most) people are misguided and/or supporting a CAMPAIGN. I don't know about Paul. I read him, and a few others, through MY lenses. They are not YOUR lenses. So I read the words IN CONTEXT of what ELSE was being written.

WORDS matter. Context matters. If someone had come in here and blasted, "BLM is a joke because ALM!" then, yeah, context and that person would have undoubtedly been guilty as charged. But there is a lot more in the discussion besides catchy slogans ON EITHER SIDE. 

IF people had come in here and simply said "all lives matter" that is rather a "duh" statement. But I didn't see that either. I saw some people writing a bit more about why they were saying that, and I didn't see it equate into BLM sucks. What I am seeing is rather a group think of acceptable PC-ness, that if you don't phrase things a certain way then you can't possibly have a valid thought, are deluded, or probably brain damaged.  Life and its inequalities are a lot more complex than slogans and simple solutions. There are many paths up the mountain, but to deny they are going up the mountain, to the same destination, is detrimental.

Whoa...I certainly said nothing about brain damage. 

If you came on here to say only that all lives matter, lower case, nobody would disagree. And I'm sure we all know that you are 100% not a racist. But to use the mountain paths analogy: no, we are not all heading up the mountain. The ALM expedition, in fact, exists purely to cause a detour around the mountain. I'm sure that many ALM supporters are very well-intentioned and don't realise that, or don't realise they are detouring, or think the detour is the true path. But that doesn't change the fact that they are detouring, and that's what their leaders set out to do. 

Countering a Black Lives Matter campaign, in the circumstances of the current and longstanding climate, with an All Lives Matter one is to state that there is a difference between the two; in other words, that it's not what BLM believes, and to discredit and delegitimise it. But it's hard to see how anyone who truly believes that all lives matter equally could have an objection to a movement that calls to correct things when it's clear that black lives are being treated as if they don't matter. This is obviously a hard sell since most people do indeed believe that all lives matter, but delegitimising the BLM movement in this way does seem to work. We've seen people saying it on here, claiming that it's calling for some lives to matter more than others. One person even said something along the lines of 'oh, are we going to have to talk about racism forever', which shocked me more than I tried to let on, as I am not actually trying to cause an inferno here. Honest.

I do agree that it's more complex than slogans, but slogans are how you initially draw people in and grab attention in the first instance, and whoa, ALM has managed that extremely well. Because, well, you can't argue against that, can you? But look at it closer, as you rightly urge people to do, and it's pretty obvious what's going on. As before: of course the problem is not "all lives matter". The problem is a movement that makes the claim to imply that the other guys are saying the complete opposite, and to try to dilute and deflect from the real, serious racism problem that they're addressing.