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1 hour ago, Robin Kiyori said:

Finally. They did protest peacefully at first. more peacefully then the  armed, white protestors who wanted haircuts  only  months ago, 

 

Look what it got them,  More brutalism,  more people being rendered dead or disabled. Even news crews are being fired upon.

This has me curious, I wonder how many of the police at those haircut protests felt the need to tape over their badge numbers before going to work.

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Not as such, no. We don't really have that kind of thing here as, well, our law enforcement seldom gun down people - and whilst I obviously do not condone of it, I'm hesitant to give my 'official' (i.

Alrighty, now that I've gone ahead and cleared out some not so pleasant posts from this thread I wanted to drop a quick note here. As many of you have seen me say several times before, delving in

Thank you for this.   Black woman here.  Of A Certain Age.  I have my BLM shirt.   For whatever that means. (freewheeling it here, went from wanting to say something to not wanting to say anythi

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12 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

Making it about race just opens it up to arguments like this instead of focusing on actually solving the problem

There are two primary problems that I see, as far as the deaths caused by police.  There is the issue of way too many power hungry control freaks being in the police ranks.  That is the problem that impacts everyone regardless of race.  However, even if you fixed that problem --- somehow managed to properly screen folks so that you filtered out the control freaks -- you'd still have the issue of race and it would still be causing way too many deaths & injuries & other unjust treatment.

Ideally, we can work on both problems, but the race issue is the most pressing; it is the cancer in America, causing the most damage to our country right now.

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13 minutes ago, Gatogateau said:

Back in another thread, a comment was made about using the word "girls." There was a kerfuffle. @Scylla Rhiadra said something that was spot on, and I should go find the quote, but I'm too lazy. Basically it was eye-rolling about feminists trying to out feminist each other. This is applying here. In that situation "girl" which can absolutely be used as a put down, wasn't used in that situation, and the word "girl" was taken out of context for a rather shrill bit of one-upmanship on who could be the most PC. The analogy is apt in this thread, too.

Apparently there is only One True Way to have a Liberal White Guilt and White Privilege hand-wringing discussion about the very real problem of racism in the USA. All others need not apply. I find it ridiculous and self-serving. YMMV obviously.

 

Every time I see the word kerfuffle, my mind just reads COVFEFE. :P 

(Yeah, obvious attempt at injecting some levity into the situation; but, equally obvious, needed, I think).

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13 hours ago, kiramanell said:

P.S. And speaking of which, how many white ppl did die exactly, say, last year, by other white policemen? Just name one. Or just try and recall even one occurance.... I thought so.

This comment is unfair.  White deaths by police don't make headlines, hence the only ones that can likely name them are the people directly impacted by the deaths - family & friends & such.  As he said, there were more white deaths than black, but as Scylla said, 'not per capita'.  

image.png.174b81c06c928721f2014f8b334a1705.png

(source https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/)

 

I am not attempting to agree with his general comments about what we should be focusing on -- just pointing out that the fact that nobody most people couldn't name a white death by a police officer doesn't mean it doesn't happen or isn't a problem.

 

Edited by LittleMe Jewell
changed 'nobody' to most
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3 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

 

I do, I confess, find it ironic that a nation that was born in the bloody crucible of revolution, war, and civil violence, and is proud of that fact, should suddenly get all prissy about violence as a means of effecting political change when it's the subaltern -- the oppressed and the victimized -- who are deploying it.

...

So, you disagree with riots? So do I. Don't like BLM? Fine. But if you use either of those views as an excuse to not doing anything about the racism and the violence that is festering in our culture, then you really are part of the problem. However you choose to act against racism, do something.

To be clear I am not disagreeing with any of this, I am quoting it as a part of a conversation because I want to add something.

Every so often, people just have had enough. Nearly 51 years ago at the Stonewall Inn was one of those times.

A quote about it :

Quote

"We all had a collective feeling like we'd had enough of this kind of *****. It wasn't anything tangible anybody said to anyone else, it was just kind of like everything over the years had come to a head on that one particular night in the one particular place, and it was not an organized demonstration... Everyone in the crowd felt that we were never going to go back. It was like the last straw. It was time to reclaim something that had always been taken from us.... All kinds of people, all different reasons, but mostly it was total outrage, anger, sorrow, everything combined, and everything just kind of ran its course. It was the police who were doing most of the destruction. We were really trying to get back in and break free. And we felt that we had freedom at last, or freedom to at least show that we demanded freedom. We weren't going to be walking meekly in the night and letting them shove us around—it's like standing your ground for the first time and in a really strong way, and that's what caught the police by surprise. There was something in the air, freedom a long time overdue, and we're going to fight for it. It took different forms, but the bottom line was, we weren't going to go away. And we didn't."

To see the footage of journalists being targeted by police over the last few days, old men being pushed over, the peaceful protestor with has face mask pulled down and sprayed in the face, the County Medical examiner reaching for excuses, the language of your President, the tear gassing of peaceful protestors to deliver a photo op holding a bible in front of a church.

It is no wonder people are mad and protesting.

My own experiences of protests across the pond date back 30 odd years now. I remember the rage and reaction to police snatch squads barging in to protests to grab organisers, I remember being charged by horses just as we were dispersing to go home on our coaches, to transform a story about a peaceful protest into one of violence.

For what little good it does BLM protestors have my solidarity. Black Lives Matter, police shouldn't be able to get away with violence and murder with impunity.

Edited by Aethelwine
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Augh. I can't get the quotes to work the way I want to, so doing it the old fashioned way:

@Amina Sopwith said, "Whoa...I certainly said nothing about brain damage." Nope, you didn't. Sorry if I implied otherwise. I've been reading quotes and responses throughout where apparently some people are saying things like "brain damage" if they aren't toeing the line. (And that's 18 kinds of wrong right there, too.)

Amina: But to use the mountain paths analogy: no, we are not all heading up the mountain. The ALM expedition, in fact, exists purely to cause a detour around the mountain. You appear to be stuck on the notion that someone is discussing ALM as a group. I have explained umpteen times that I am not. I have written a lot, and if you choose not to see my words and in their context, then there is nothing more I can add. You are talking apples. I am not.  I have not delegitimized BLM at all. Quite the contrary to anyone who actually read my words. I have seen a couple of people here state rather puzzling/disturbing views, and I read their words in context. 

I honestly believe, not that anyone is bothering to pay attention because my words do not fall in line with group think, that overall the best way to approach the very real and necessary social change is to change for ALL. Otherwise we get bogged down into special interest, and piecemeal solutions. This thread has touched upon black lives, impoverished lives, Native American lives and it has touched upon ableism, classism... and heaven knows what else. Raise everyone up at the same time. However, and I've also said this, which no one is bothering to pay attention to, more preferring to jump on one small part of my now novel-lengthed words, sometimes you have the opportunity and need to raise one group up. This is the time and the environment, because of the spotlight, for BLM. Hopefully something happens. Maybe even that something will also pull a few more groups up with it. My belief is that in the long term, big picture, it is the "all" portion that has to be addressed, not the individual groups. Shoot me for not spouting the current PC wisdom.

 

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Read the room.

Black Lives Matter.

Anything else is just attempting to move the discussion away from the systematic and institutional oppression of a minority, which at this point can and will only be interpreted as racism. Being PC has nothing to do with it.

Black Lives Matter.

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To answer the original question, no I will not do anything in SL because as people said before, SL is a get away for me, a release of stress and (mostly) no real life. And even then, all the people I ever hang out with in SL I do not have to convince that black lives matter too, or racism and violence is bad. So no real point in it either from my point of view.

In real life I wont do anything with it either. If I had the honest believe it would matter the slightest bit if I did, I likely would. But sitting here in a small village at the other end of the ocean, I very much doubt it would. Even though to my big surprise, even here we have demonstrations in Amsterdam with thousands of people getting up for #BLM. That did not happen before as far as I can remember.

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14 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

This comment is unfair.  White deaths by police don't make headlines, hence the only ones that can likely name them are the people directly impacted by the deaths - family & friends & such.  As he said, there were more white deaths than black, but as Scylla said, 'not per capita'.

 

My point was not literally about numbers (even though I asked 'how many?'), but simply to evoke a realization (whilst ppl were contemplating the number), that police brutality -- the kind you can find on youtube, where a white officer just shoots and kills a black man from across the street -- is an occurance, which, if it even happens at all, happens so rarely, that most ppl likely can't recall a single instance.

Edited by kiramanell
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4 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

Read the room.

 

I have.

You can read it as you like, too.

I see the discussion of the last 7 pages or so, and it has veered way off topic from "are you showing support" to a discussion of sorts of racism. Interestingly, it is all about The Right Kind of PC. That is detrimental. /me shrugs

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5 minutes ago, Gatogateau said:

Augh. I can't get the quotes to work the way I want to, so doing it the old fashioned way:

@Amina Sopwith said, "Whoa...I certainly said nothing about brain damage." Nope, you didn't. Sorry if I implied otherwise. I've been reading quotes and responses throughout where apparently some people are saying things like "brain damage" if they aren't toeing the line. (And that's 18 kinds of wrong right there, too.)

Amina: But to use the mountain paths analogy: no, we are not all heading up the mountain. The ALM expedition, in fact, exists purely to cause a detour around the mountain. You appear to be stuck on the notion that someone is discussing ALM as a group. I have explained umpteen times that I am not. I have written a lot, and if you choose not to see my words and in their context, then there is nothing more I can add. You are talking apples. I am not.  I have not delegitimized BLM at all. Quite the contrary to anyone who actually read my words. I have seen a couple of people here state rather puzzling/disturbing views, and I read their words in context. 

I honestly believe, not that anyone is bothering to pay attention because my words do not fall in line with group think, that overall the best way to approach the very real and necessary social change is to change for ALL. Otherwise we get bogged down into special interest, and piecemeal solutions. This thread has touched upon black lives, impoverished lives, Native American lives and it has touched upon ableism, classism... and heaven knows what else. Raise everyone up at the same time. However, and I've also said this, which no one is bothering to pay attention to, more preferring to jump on one small part of my now novel-lengthed words, sometimes you have the opportunity and need to raise one group up. This is the time and the environment, because of the spotlight, for BLM. Hopefully something happens. Maybe even that something will also pull a few more groups up with it. My belief is that in the long term, big picture, it is the "all" portion that has to be addressed, not the individual groups. Shoot me for not spouting the current PC wisdom.

 

Well look...if literally all you are saying is "all lives matter, all humans are equal" then obviously I agree. This thread, though, is dedicated to a more complex argument than that and a more insidious use of those words. If I've missed the point and you're not trying to participate in that particular discussion, then I'm quite happy to park it here because, well, there isn't really a discussion to be had.

But I would very respectfully remind you that in discussions about the BLM movement and related issues, the words "all lives matter" carry a significance and meaning that they wouldn't if we were just sitting round a campfire amongst friends and singing Kum Ba Ya. I would absolutely agree with change for all because racism against minorities isn't going to be reduced until, well, we do all make changes. That, too, is largely the point of the BLM movement; hard to see how we can form a solution that doesn't affect everyone (and, ultimately, benefit everyone too). And we also need to be careful, in our admirable quest to bring about change that benefits everyone, not to lose sight of the fact that as things stand right now, some demographics are in more immediate and serious danger than others and therefore need more attention.
 

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1 hour ago, Beth Macbain said:

The fact that this thread is full of mostly white people from countries that aren't the US is really illustrative of the problem. 

If you aren't black and living in the US, you don't know what it feels like (and neither do I) to be a black person in the US. 

LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE SPEAK. Listen to the stories. Believe the stories. 

If the people on this thread can't even agree that racism in America is a real thing, a systemic thing, and a deadly, dangerous thing, then we've not even taken the god damn first step. 

For today, it does not matter what the reasoning and neurological makeup of racists is. For today, it does not matter that, of course, all lives matter. For today, white voices need to STFU, including mine. 

Today we need to listen and learn. 

 

^^^^^^^THIS RIGHT HERE^^^^^^^

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As I predicted in my first post...

So, continue on, patting each other on the backs for thinking and speaking EXACTLY in The Correct Way without reading or listening. Weren't we reminded that now is a time for listening? Does that only apply to certain people? Apparently.

Yes, I agree. I'm stupid. I'm ill informed. I am aiding and abetting repression in all its forms. I am callous. I certainly do not choose my words with care, nor do I know my own intent or beliefs. I will go back and reread all the great wisdom so that I may, too, march in lock step in the correct method. Silly me, I thought I was walking to a mountain top. So glad to have been shown the error of my ways. 

th_sarcasm.gif

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Serioulsy and for real -if you want to do something, put your financial and RL support behind organizations who are supporting the BLM cause and who can take on the increased police brutality. 

That doesn't involve virtue signalling in SL, unless -perhaps, you're talking fund-raising.

Feel-good SL ...anything..really is woefully inadequate to address what's going on now. 

Posting for a lil perspective here:

 

 

Edited by Han Held
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6 minutes ago, Han Held said:

400x400_1469719768618-thats-nice-dear-me

Whatever, Han. I generally agree with you, but then, I usually am in lock step as required. Pretty sure people agree with me in this thread too, 99% of it anyway, but, yah know, that little variation is a killer.

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19 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Well look...
 

Yep, I totally don't get what you're saying.

Except, gosh, I've said 99% of what you've said. 

And I have not been belittling, with knocks of a 2x4 against your head, your views. I have not jumped on three words and taken them out of context and not read the rest of what has been said in your comments.

I'm reading the room quite well. I don't like it. But I've read it. 

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1 minute ago, Gatogateau said:

Whatever, Han. I generally agree with you, but then, I usually am in lock step as required. Pretty sure people agree with me in this thread too, 99% of it anyway, but, yah know, that little variation is a killer.

Sorry if there was some deep nuance to your post beyond accusing the forum of groupthink which I missed. 

Right now, at this moment, journalists all over the country are being attacked by police; this has been documented. People of color are being killed and arrested. Our president is having people excercising their constitutional right to protest (free speech and assembly) pushed aside so that he can have a photo-op.

My patience and discernment might not be what they ought to be at this moment -and for that I ...apologize? 

Or whatever's appropriate.

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No i am not showing support for the current wave of opportunistic riots currently going on across my country done under the guise of BLM. If these were genuine protests over the outrageous actions done, they wouldn't dishonor the names of the victims by using violent acts of racism against others and destroying the property of innocent people or stealing goods.

I live in Memphis Tennessee where the majority of the population is made of of people of color. Our Chief of Police is a man of color as are the majority of city officials. And yet even here we have had a minor riot. Yes, there is racism here but oddly enough it is much more from people of color towards people of other races.The riot here was not over any event or injustice in our city. If it was just to show support for the BLM movement, why burn a car and throw rocks through windows or loot stores?  I'm from an older generation and took to heart the words of a man who was killed in this city for trying to fight racism in ALL it's forms. So I choose to judge a person by their character and NOT by their color. To me... all lives matter.

A great man once said: We are flowers of one garden, leaves of one tree.

 

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1 minute ago, Han Held said:

Sorry if there was some deep nuance to your post beyond accusing the forum of groupthink which I missed. 

Right now, at this moment, journalists all over the country are being attacked by police; this has been documented. People of color are being killed and arrested. Our president is having people excercising their constitutional right to protest (free speech and assembly) pushed aside so that he can have a photo-op.

My patience and discernment might not be what they ought to be at this moment -and for that I ...apologize? 

Or whatever's appropriate.

Nope, there was no deep nuance to my sarcasm about groupthink.

I'm quite aware of what atrocities are going on "now" and for the past hundreds of years. I have a view point. It doesn't follow the EXACT viewpoint of the groupthink, so yes, I understand about patiences and discernment and frustration and a bunch of things.

That said, I don't know what your appropriate response is to that. (sincere, not snarky)

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2 minutes ago, Gatogateau said:

Yep, I totally don't get what you're saying.

Except, gosh, I've said 99% of what you've said. 

And I have not been belittling, with knocks of a 2x4 against your head, your views. I have not jumped on three words and taken them out of context and not read the rest of what has been said in your comments.

I'm reading the room quite well. I don't like it. But I've read it. 

Ok... I like and respect you very much, and I hope I can communicate that that's why I'm going to leave this particular discussion here. I'm not worried that I'll say something nasty to you because there's no chance of that. I'm just worried that you already feel quite bad, and I don't want to take any risks. 

 


 

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16 minutes ago, Gatogateau said:

As I predicted in my first post...

So, continue on, patting each other on the backs for thinking and speaking EXACTLY in The Correct Way without reading or listening. Weren't we reminded that now is a time for listening? Does that only apply to certain people? Apparently.

Yes, I agree. I'm stupid. I'm ill informed. I am aiding and abetting repression in all its forms. I am callous. I certainly do not choose my words with care, nor do I know my own intent or beliefs. I will go back and reread all the great wisdom so that I may, too, march in lock step in the correct method. Silly me, I thought I was walking to a mountain top. So glad to have been shown the error of my ways. 

th_sarcasm.gif

I mean this in the gentlest way possible because I know damn good and well your heart is in the right place, and that right now you are feeling targeted and beat down and attacked. 

Please think about that for a moment - how you're feeling right now. 

I know you are enraged. I know you feel like you aren't being heard. I know you want to grab certain people in this thread, me for sure, and shake us and demand we hear your words.

Now jump over to the other side for just a sec. Every time a black person hears "but all lives matter!" how do you think that makes them feel when they are trying to be heard? 

This isn't about you. It's not about me, and it's not about Scylla, and it's not about the other people in this thread except for, I beileve, Kimmi, who is the only black person that lives in the US that has contributed to this thread - and she was pretty much ignored. 

Think about that for a minute. 

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7 minutes ago, Gatogateau said:

Nope, there was no deep nuance to my sarcasm about groupthink.

Then I'm going to stand by my original reaction.

You may feel compelled to post -but it's now abundantly clear that you have nothing to say. 

I would suggest that the appropriate course of action for you to take would be to allow us who are watching in horror as our country burns to react in the natural way -with horror, with anger, with fear and if you are unwilling or unable to allow us to process that, then please confine your activities to ones of quiet, solitary manual gratification with the corroded turnscrew of your choice

Good day.

Edited by Han Held
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9 minutes ago, Neilina said:

No i am not showing support for the current wave of opportunistic riots currently going on across my country done under the guise of BLM. If these were genuine protests over the outrageous actions done, they wouldn't dishonor the names of the victims by using violent acts of racism against others and destroying the property of innocent people or stealing goods.

I don't think anyone here is supporting the riots nor the violence but I can only speak for myself and say that I am not advocating any kind of riot or violence but I think it blew up as a result of those not taking seriously the high mortality rates among blacks especially in places like Chicago and Louisiana in regards to COVID-19...and then the death of an innocent man, and it just blew!  

I only advocate peaceful protesting and said I'd like to walk with my friends in this thread.  Walk, just walk, but with COVID-19 situation, I can't in real life at this time.  

Black Lives Matter is an international Human Rights Movement that started in 2012 or so, I believe.  

It's my lunch time but here's a quick bit of info:

Black Lives Matter (BLM) is an international human rights movement, originating in the African-American community, that campaigns against violence and systemic racism towards black people.
Key people: Shaun King; DeRay Mckesson; Jo...
Location: International; (mostly in the United St...
Founders: Alicia Garza; Patrisse Cullors; Opal ...
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5 minutes ago, Han Held said:

Then I'm going to stand by my original reaction.

You may feel compelled to post -but it's now abundantly clear that you have nothing to say. 

I would suggest that the appropriate course of action for you to take would be to allow us who are watching in horror as our country burns to react in the natural way -with horror, with anger, with fear and if you are unwilling or unable to allow us to process that, then please confine your activities to ones of quiet, solitary manual gratification with the corroded turnscrew of your choice

Good day.

What. The. Actual. Eff.

I have nothing to say.

I am not allowing people to process...

 

Wow. Just. Wow.

NOTHING I have written deserved that. Not. One. Damned. Thing. 

But then, I'm guessing my whole bunch of posts were not read.

Thanks for proving my point.

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