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2 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:
34 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Thinking of the 'white pride' and 'straight pride' groups that develop in order to cure the injustice they feel has been done to their privileged group.

I never heard of these.  But, lol...no!   Sounds utterly ridiculous. 

lol I've been entertaining the idea that it's the fluoride we've been putting in the water in many cities over here, damaging people's brains..

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1 minute ago, Gatogateau said:

BOOM!

Mic drop

Thanks.

I'm annoyed with myself for rising to such absolutely playground level bait, though. This subject is too important for that and it was unworthy. 

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13 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:
50 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It's more than bizarre, and so illogical that I have to wonder if some kind of brain damage is at fault.  

I'm Canadian...Let's not call it brain damage or throw around buzz words like "white privilege". I'd call it willful ignorance or something like "putting on blinders".

We should all simply stick to the issue, which is social injustice. I don't see how anybody can be against that because THAT makes everything better for all of us.  This is isn't about social injustice though, this runs far deeper than that and it makes people super uncomfortable talking about in a thoughtful manner, let alone even think about it. It's there, it's obvious and something has to be done about it. Things like this challenge people's entire belief system about how things work, even if its in some other place in some other part of the world.

I mean, you had the leader of a country just say he was going to take military action against this. Against his own citizens. Meanwhile, an armed protest and storming a government building was met with them being called "Patriots". How do you rationalize that? How do you not say anything about that? No, no, no....if people aren't seeing that then they aren't going to. No debate on the internet is going to sway someone who doesn't see it, they just don't want to see that. 

People who won't see or won't do anything, just aren't going to do anything. This isn't for them and truthfully, nobody is asking for people who don't believe in something to do something. If people want to..they will. Even if its on a game, even if its in real life...people will and they are. Its really that simple.

Well, I've been researching the conservative mind for some time. I do like to understand consciousness in general, the way all minds exist and change. There are a lot of scientific tests that show a marked difference in the conservative mind, in the way they think. While some seem sympathetic to the differences, to me it seems a type of brain damage...lol...and yes I just want to be insulting today as we discuss the injustice thrown out to people of color over the centuries.  Who knows what it really is, or how much they are to blame? There is a dynamic between individualism vs community that is always in tension, both within individuals and society as a whole, and I guess I'd say America got waaay imbalanced with the individualistic aspects.

* But yes, social justice, America seems to have forgotten about that for the most part. The concept of 'community' has become foreign. The individual reigns.

Edited by Luna Bliss
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3 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Thanks.

I'm annoyed with myself for rising to such absolutely playground level bait, though. This subject is too important for that and it was unworthy. 

 

I should make this another pet peeve: people who post an excellent cartoon, illustrating precisely what's going in, then suddenly, for no real resson, offer a completr and utter retraction, leaving everyone in their wake either baffled (or happy).

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2 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I never heard of these.  But, lol...no!   Sounds utterly ridiculous.  

Oh they are very real, sadly.  

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/ideology/white-nationalist

https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/7/1/18761623/straight-pride

The point the white & straight pride crowd doesn’t seem to grasp is- they don’t have to live in fear for being white or heterosexual.  

I live in a Oklahoma & the comments on local news media reflect a preponderance of mindsets feeling that somehow someone who is different in someway striving for equality & to escape persecution is horrifying.

just this past month, a black delivery man, doing his job, making a delivery while in an recognizable company vehicle while wearing his work uniform had the road blocked by a man who demanded to know his business. https://www.thelostogle.com/2020/05/13/white-edmond-man-confronts-black-delivery-driver-for-being-in-gated-community/
 

Then we have undeniable racism by local cops-  https://www.thelostogle.com/2020/05/19/funny-norman-cop-emails-hysterical-kkk-meme-to-coworkers/

& just two nights ago an actual member of local media decided to racially profile protesters & make inflammatory statements that did not match what was on the tv- https://www.thelostogle.com/2020/06/01/jim-gardner-goes-full-fox-news-while-covering-okc-protests/

(of note the lost ogle is a reference to the ogle brothers- two local okc news anchors)  

 

 

 

 

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Just now, kiramanell said:

I should make this another pet peeve: people who post an excellent cartoon, illustrating precisely what's going in, then suddenly, for no real resson, offer a completr and utter retraction, leaving everyone in their wake either baffled (or happy).

I didn't retract it....?

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6 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Well, I've been researching the conservative mind for some time. I do like to understand consciousness in general, the way all minds exist and change. There are a lot of scientific tests that show a marked difference in the conservative mind, in the way they think. While some seem sympathetic to the differences, to me it seems a type of brain damage...lol...and yes I just want to be insulting today as we discuss the injustice thrown out to people of color over the centuries. 

Yes, but why be insulting? That's going to be met with further insults. If you truly studied the right-wing mind you'd know that is their element and you'd lose, not to mention you then take away from the very thing you are advocating.

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6 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:
14 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Well, I've been researching the conservative mind for some time. I do like to understand consciousness in general, the way all minds exist and change. There are a lot of scientific tests that show a marked difference in the conservative mind, in the way they think. While some seem sympathetic to the differences, to me it seems a type of brain damage...lol...and yes I just want to be insulting today as we discuss the injustice thrown out to people of color over the centuries. 

Yes, but why be insulting? That's going to be met with further insults. If you truly studied the right-wing mind you'd know that is their element and you'd lose, not to mention you then take away from the very thing you are advocating.

It's just me being frustrated today, after changing my mind about not watching the news, and then watching the news with all the chaos unfolding, only to come here and have to witness some of the idiotic comments by conservatives here too.  Just a release, here on the forum.

But I thought your issue was that I wasn't holding them accountable if saying they really couldn't help it due to brain damage?   The sad thing is, although not "brain damage" per se, they really might not be able to help how they view many aspects of society.  I suppose that is more depressing than anything.

* Case in point, the narcissist (as defined by a bevy of psychologists) heading the country really is unable to see his behavior for what it is. This is a clinical aspect of narcissism.  

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2 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It's just me being frustrated today,

I think a lot of us are after reading some of those screeds. But waddaygonnado? They really believe that...calling them names isn't going to change that; its going to make them double down. Nobody wants that.

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Just now, kiramanell said:

Okay, confused now. Very. 😯 But that's just on me, I suppose.

Another poster effectively accused me of making a facile and oversimplified argument that I definitely didn't posit. Unwisely, I responded with a slightly sarcastic "do my posts suggest that?" reply. I should of course have just left it because a) my posts stood for themselves and b) it was already clear from this person's previous contributions what level of discussion I could expect.

Obviously, said poster responded with "YES THEY DO LOL" and I'm annoyed with myself that I rose to it, especially since I already knew it wasn't going to be any better than that.

I absolutely stand by the cartoon.

Sorry for the detour, everyone. As you were.

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6 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:
10 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

It's just me being frustrated today,

I think a lot of us are after reading some of those screeds. But waddaygonnado? They really believe that...calling them names isn't going to change that; its going to make them double down. Nobody wants that.

So you actually believe our lengthy discussion here is going to change their minds?

More than once I've brought out the black woman from History hanged by a noose, her stomach flayed to reveal a baby who falls to the ground, after which the  baby's head was stomped.   Did it do any good?  Did it increase empathy for what Blacks have endured in this country?  I guess not, as the same conservative person spouts the same ridiculous nonsense here today, demonstrating no empathy developed.

* These tests I've mentioned -- conservatives score way down when empathy is measured.   

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1 minute ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Another poster effectively accused me of making a facile and oversimplified argument that I definitely didn't posit. Unwisely, I responded with a slightly sarcastic "do my posts suggest that?" reply. I should of course have just left it because a) my posts stood for themselves and b) it was already clear from this person's previous contributions what level of discussion I could expect.

Obviously, said poster responded with "YES THEY DO LOL" and I'm annoyed with myself that I rose to it, especially since I already knew it wasn't going to be any better than that.

I absolutely stand by the cartoon.

Sorry for the detour, everyone. As you were.

 

Ah, thanks. :) I didn't have my coffee yet (actually, I did, but slept way too little tonight, trying animation HUDs, so coffee didn't really help), but I understand it now. Thanks for the clarification.

N.B. 'As you were', I know what it means, of course; but I was just hoping, for the occasion, that our collective thinking on these matters leaves us not just as we were, but a little better. 😊

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3 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

So you actually believe our lengthy discussion here is going to change their minds?

More than once I've brought out the black woman from History hanged by a noose, her stomach flayed to reveal a baby who falls to the ground, after which the  baby's head was stomped.   Did it do any good?  Did it increase empathy for what Blacks have endured in this country?  I guess not, as the same conservative person spouts the same ridiculous nonsense here today, demonstrating no empathy developed.

* These tests I've mentioned -- conservatives score way down when empathy is measured.   

If you don't believe that you are going to be able to change minds, then why are you posting, Luna? What would be the point, other than to hear yourself talk, or virtue signal?

Demonizing those who disagree is not only unfair, it's also ineffective. It's the verbal equivalent to setting fire to a car . . . just because you can.

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9 hours ago, Paul Hexem said:

You're saying "well, those dead people are less important than these other dead people". I can't get behind that.

/me pussyfoots in without having read ALL of the thread, which is often a mistake.

Also, I'm about to lose my liberal cred and will no doubt bee in the service of a knight, cuz I expect to get tackled.

I agree with what I've read Paul saying. I also agree with what @Scylla Rhiadra and others have been saying and "liking."  But I get Paul's point, and I'm reading in his intent (which I certainly do not KNOW, but am inferring through my own filters). All lives matter may be the whitest thing anyone has ever said, but... on face value (poor choice of words?) it is absolutely correct. I get where some see that as a way to downplay the BLM movement, and I know that some people use it exactly for that reason. I'm not stupid. But... all lives do matter.

There are injustices all over the place. From my new vantage point of extreme poverty where once I enjoyed a six-figure income, I see so many injustices based not on race but on class. Before anyone jumps up and down on THAT statement, I'm aware that class and race often go hand in hand, but not always. Look at who is on the roster for food assistance, for example, and you'll find families of all colors, lots of poor whites in the states that want to curtail the safety nets, veterans, etc. Impoverished Lives Matter.

So we could absolutely break these Lives up into subgroups, and that would ultimately dilute the purpose. Paul saying that focusing on people's differences undermines the focus on how we are all equal, TO ME is saying THAT-- that all the minority causes dilute the bigger picture. We should be focusing on ALL injustices and inequalities.

However, at this point in time, with recent events glaring at us AGAIN, the BLM movement does have a specific purpose and NEED. It is a very visible time, whereas so much racism gets swept under the rug. This is the time to strike, metaphorically and perhaps literally.

The police need policing. Like @Beth Macbain said though, through the story of her friend, you also cannot broad brush "the police." We'd be in a world of trouble without police. They do incredible work and I cannot even imagine doing what they do every day. I believe that some psychopaths get into law enforcement to be bullies, but I also believe there are a lot of incredibly brave people who want to serve the community who are police. All lives matter, including police. (Grudgingly, even politicians... and HR people.) That said, there are a lot of systemic problems and individual horror stories. The monster who murdered George Floyd (I refuse to say "killed" because that minimizes the intentional evil he did) while getting charged, is still only being charged with "oopsies" Murder 3. Our entire justice system, while still better than a lot of places, needs overhauling, on all levels. That's a whole nuther book.

Sadly, I'm beginning to think that it will take many more George Floyds, back to back, on camera, and consistent upheaval before anything gets done. Again, look at the number of school shootings, and still nothing meaningful is being done about guns.  The problem with the upheaval though is what we are already seeing. It scares people. It scares the people who can affect change. It starts being a self-fulfilling prophecy of "look at *those* people... *they* are violent and so deserve violence." I wish I had answers; I do not.

I'll repeat what I said before and others have also said in different ways: The best thing I can do is not be racist. I can monitor myself for when it creeps up, and it will, because we ALL do it (sorry but that is my unPC belief). I can stop it when I can, when I see it happening. I can give time and money to organizations that can affect change.

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Just now, Scylla Rhiadra said:
5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

So you actually believe our lengthy discussion here is going to change their minds?

More than once I've brought out the black woman from History hanged by a noose, her stomach flayed to reveal a baby who falls to the ground, after which the  baby's head was stomped.   Did it do any good?  Did it increase empathy for what Blacks have endured in this country?  I guess not, as the same conservative person spouts the same ridiculous nonsense here today, demonstrating no empathy developed.

* These tests I've mentioned -- conservatives score way down when empathy is measured.   

If you don't believe that you are going to be able to change minds, then why are you posting, Luna? What would be the point, other than to hear yourself talk, or virtue signal?

Demonizing those who disagree is not only unfair, it's also ineffective. It's the verbal equivalent to setting fire to a car . . . just because you can.

Oh I believed it for awhile, had a faint glimmer of hope that conservatives might change via our posts here.   But then I saw a post by that conservative, actually somebody quoted him, and I became negative.

I'm tired, maybe I just need to eat.  Everything just feels so bad at the moment. Hopeless.

I totally agree, demonizing does no good.  But if you read my further posts you can see I'm saying I believe they really can't help how they are due to how their brain is structured, measured by these tests.  Others are the ones saying we should hold them more accountable, that they are totally to blame for their actions.

But for now,  those F-ers!    lol

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5 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

So you actually believe our lengthy discussion here is going to change their minds?

I already said it wasn't. At this point, this is all damage control, and try to actually give them something to think about...because this had the potential of spiralling out of control and by you poking fun of that you're helping it spiral out of control.

You are literally arguing with people that have all of the evidence they would need on youtube, any news outlet, any news paper, possibly happening in their city right now. If all they see is something totally different than what is right there, do you think ad hominems are going to result in any kind of net positive other than making yourself feel better?

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9 hours ago, Mollymews said:

it does help to change behaviour

the police officer who killed George Floyd was charged with murder with an alternative charge of manslaughter.  There was no months long drawn out inquiry leading to charges not being drawn up

this is a marked change in official behaviour. These kinds of marked changes in official behaviour do actually solve the problem. The problem being that in many police forces, officers gain a sense of impunity when they are not charged, called to account, for their actions when those actions break the law

 

While I totally agree with what you said, it still infuriates me that the cop that murdered George Floyd in cold blood is getting an "alternative charge of manslaughter."

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29 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Well, I've been researching the conservative mind for some time. I do like to understand consciousness in general, the way all minds exist and change. There are a lot of scientific tests that show a marked difference in the conservative mind, in the way they think. While some seem sympathetic to the differences, to me it seems a type of brain damage...lol...

 

We agreed on a lot in this thread, but that term, 'brain damage', I think you may be using it too much. Last thread we were in, you accused almost everyone disagreeing with you of suffering from some form of TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury). I get that this is funny, especially when applied to Trump and such, LOL, but probably loses effectiveness a bit, after a while.

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8 hours ago, Amina Sopwith said:

large-31792-6be7aef9-660d-4a16-928e-7ecd0f1d0601.jpeg.jpg

My ramblings above was sort of alluding to something like this. Right now, BLM should be getting the attention because its house is on fire, but all lives matter of course.

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9 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

So you actually believe our lengthy discussion here is going to change their minds?

Well, if others are reading they might be listening, although that is for Janet to answer really as it was directed to her.

But, the OP has also proposed we look at what the problem is and what is the solution.

I suggest, where I live, there is a kind of racial profiling in regards to a suspect.  What is the solution though as for the most part it involves drugs or stealing here.  

I find the chart mind-boggling in regards to Native Americans, however, and feel absolutely speechless about that.  I had heard many Native Americans who were kept on reservations, due to the lack of nothing to do nor the chance to be productive, turned to alcohol.  There was a report on this about 20 years or so ago.  However, the Native Americans in Southern California have been given casinos which were at first called "Indian Bingos".  The Native Americans here that have the opportunity to have something to do, something to look forward to, something to be productive with, seem quite happy to have their casinos and the Indian Casinos opened recently.  But, I am still quite baffled at the graph because for the most part, the Native Americans are quite peaceful in general, so what a baffling graph.  

And, yet...with all the drug problems here in the greater Los Angeles area, I wonder if anything will ever change too.   This drug problem never seems to change but I will share with you all one thing that has changed.  Former gang members are not allowed in the town I live in nor the building I live in and, if caught, are sent home by the Police here.  When I heard of this, I asked why can't a former gang member be allowed in my town?  I was told it is because gang members have to kill a rival gang member in order to get into some of the gangs here in the greater Los Angeles area.  Gangs are a big problem we just can't keep sweeping under the carpet.  Kids grow up in "this" gang thing.  I feel like saying "get them out of there"!   We need to do something about the "gangs".  

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6 minutes ago, Janet Voxel said:

You are literally arguing with people that have all of the evidence they would need on youtube, any news outlet, any news paper, possibly happening in their city right now. If all they see is something totally different than what is right there, do you think ad hominems are going to result in any kind of net positive other than making yourself feel better?

Well, I could ask you how the following paragraph of yours helps at all, because you are accusing them of not wanting to see reality, as if they are at fault for their perceptions.   I am basically saying, perhaps they cannot see the truth.  Perhaps they should not be demonized as people who just don't want to see the truth.

"I mean, you had the leader of a country just say he was going to take military action against this. Against his own citizens. Meanwhile, an armed protest and storming a government building was met with them being called "Patriots". How do you rationalize that? How do you not say anything about that? No, no, no....if people aren't seeing that then they aren't going to. No debate on the internet is going to sway someone who doesn't see it, they just don't want to see that. "

 

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9 minutes ago, kiramanell said:
44 minutes ago, Luna Bliss said:

Well, I've been researching the conservative mind for some time. I do like to understand consciousness in general, the way all minds exist and change. There are a lot of scientific tests that show a marked difference in the conservative mind, in the way they think. While some seem sympathetic to the differences, to me it seems a type of brain damage...lol...

 

We agreed on a lot in this thread, but that term, 'brain damage', I think you may be using it too much. Last thread we were in, you accused almost everyone disagreeing with you of suffering from some form of TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury). I get that this is funny, especially when applied to Trump and such, LOL, but probably loses effectiveness a bit, after a while.

I was wrong there, it was not TBI, it was BullyBee syndrome   :)

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6 hours ago, Amina Sopwith said:

I suppose my feeling is that the people who are ultimately behind All Lives Matter (which is not to include everyone who has been drawn in by it) do not have good intentions. Or that a lot of well-intentioned people are falling for fallacious arguments.

While I believe that all lives matter, I am suspect of movements in general (groups of people are my worst nightmare, as is group think). I have no doubt that some of the people in All Lives Matter are up to no good. Not everyone falls for fallacious arguments though to be able to state that all lives matter. And I don't feel like dying on this hill; I'm being a bit pedantic. A lot of this goes to intent, and I've yet to see anyone who knows for certain what the intents of others are without being explicitly told. I am not naive to the evils of the world.

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2 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

Well, if others are reading they might be listening

I do always hold out a faint glimmer of hope, even when I need to eat and I feel negative...

But really I think for the most part we're just processing the trauma of what is going on out there atm, what is to become of our world.  It doesn't look good. I've been reading about all the folks lined up trying to get food, and strange things are happening in my neighborhood (more thefts, even in my own backyard).

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