Profile Pick got me banned

[Rolig Loon]

[Madelaine McMasters]

6 hours ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

I once got banned from a club for saying the place was full of the wildest animals in SL.

 

[Lyssa Greymoon]

You were probably going to get banned sooner or later, so better to get it over with.

I also gotta know, what was the landmark?

[Kimmi Zehetbauer]

10 hours ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

I once got banned from a club for saying the place was full of the wildest animals in SL.

/me shrugs

 

And my man got banned for playing a song about an animal --- "What did the Fox say?"

[Selene Gregoire]

4 hours ago, Amina Sopwith said:

I don't know about this. Dare I ask?

I was afraid to so I googled instead

http://digicult.it/digimag/issue-014/camp-darfur-in-second-life/

Of course, there was nothing to fear.

This time.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

6 hours ago, Amina Sopwith said:

I don't know about this. Dare I ask?

 

1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I was afraid to so I googled instead

http://digicult.it/digimag/issue-014/camp-darfur-in-second-life/

Of course, there was nothing to fear.

This time.

You'll find a fuller discussion of the actual controversy here: 

http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2006/05/10/virtual-darfur-and-why-i-dont-get-invited-to-technology-conferences-anymore/

I think NWN may also have dealt with it a bit.

And if you're at all interested in my thoughts on the broader issues, as well as with specific reference to One Billion Rising, I -- well, technically, Laskya -- blogged on it here:

https://laskyaclaren.wordpress.com/2014/02/15/whose-voice-whose-issue-the-problems-with-sl-activism-and-one-billion-rising/

(Bonus! A certain well-known forum troll of yore makes a guest appearance!),

[Talligurl]

Ok so you got banned. I got banned once from a club because I was a member of a competing club's group. I left the group and apologized profusely and got unbanned,  but if that had  not worked I would have just moved on.  SL is to big to let being  banned from a  sim get to you.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

7 hours ago, Rolig Loon said:

Yes, I was disappointed at first when the 2014 exhibit didn't draw many visitors, but then quietly relieved.  An exhibit on hot button issues can easily offend some people by making them relive their own terrifying experiences and it can offend others by seeming to trivialize them. It's also the case that exhibits like that are often either preaching to the choir or falling on deaf ears.  There's blessed little neutral ground.  I am torn between wanting to do something and being reluctant to do anything, at least anything public. In retrospect, regardless of how important those issues are to me, I felt most comfortable (and competent) making our exhibits about "safe" topics like Am/Brit novels of the 1930s, chemical thermodynamics, and studio glassblowing.  I'm a wimpy activist.

There's no such thing as a "wimpy activist"! Activism is hard work, all of it, and that includes "safe topics."

Having said that, though, I'd certainly say that taking on difficult, upsetting, or controversial subjects can be particularly emotionally exhausting. I had enormous fun building exhibits for two SLBs; both, as suited the venue and event, were very perky and positive. Possibly, they might have verged a little bit on "kumbaya," but I did slip a bit about violence against women into both. Anyway, they were a lot of work, but it felt very rewarding.

In contrast, some of the other forms of activism in which I've been involved in SL just got nasty. I remember in particular one extended and rather brutal conflict with a creator who had produced a woman's skin for sale featuring a variety of wounds, such as black eyes, abrasions, cuts, and a bloody (and possibly broken) nose. It was putatively for combat role play, but the bloggers who were exhibiting it for her turned it into a fashion accessory. Sort of "abuse chic," if you like, with photos of women with cuts and bruises in pretty sundresses or bathing suits. Asking the skin-maker to issue a statement disavowing those uses of the skin, and specifying that it was only for RP, proved futile, and I've personally never been subjected to so much personal abuse, in SL or RL, from her supporters. It was a bit soul-destroying.

Ultimately, that kind of exhaustion, particularly in the wake of my last exhibit, was one of the reasons I withdrew from SL. And it's one of the main reasons I haven't taken up that kind of really energetic activism since.

Your point about preaching to the choir is certainly well taken. There must be other ways of using SL for education and activism? I'll admit to still feeling a little bit defeated by the whole experience, though.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Selene Gregoire]

23 minutes ago, Talligurl said:

Ok so you got banned. I got banned once from a club because I was a member of a competing club's group. I left the group and apologized profusely and got unbanned,  but if that had  not worked I would have just moved on.  SL is to big to let being  banned from a  sim get to you.

If a club were to ban me because I happen to like going to more than one club, good riddance to the one that bans me for that. I wouldn't want to be in a place that is so petty they try to dictate to their customers where they can and can't go. That is malicious manipulation. 

I'm sorry, it just bugs the crap out of me when I see people, especially women, be manipulated that way because they have no idea they are being manipulated.

[Talligurl]

6 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

If a club were to ban me because I happen to like going to more than one club, good riddance to the one that bans me for that.

Well they claimed that the other club had been sending people over to steal employees. Of course they should be able to compete to retain staff without having to block people. From my perspective I just wanted to go to the club I had been banned from to visit a friend of mine who worked there.

[Solar Legion]

As many others have already said ... Banned based on something as trivial as a Profile Pick? So what, move on - they're not worth the time.

On the side discussion surrounding BDSM and the fine line between it and abuse: There's a reason that I - a Bi Switch - am rather overly selective about where, when and around whom I allow myself to be submissive around ...

[Selene Gregoire]

49 minutes ago, Talligurl said:

Well they claimed that the other club had been sending people over to steal employees. Of course they should be able to compete to retain staff without having to block people. From my perspective I just wanted to go to the club I had been banned from to visit a friend of mine who worked there.

Understandable. However, considering you could visit with your friend outside of the time she worked/was at the club... well, you don't need me to mother tell you. Some friends are worth doing things outside of the norm for ourselves. Depends on the friend and the situation.

I am glad it worked out for you. All too often things like that drag out and turn really ugly.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

28 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

On the side discussion surrounding BDSM and the fine line between it and abuse: There's a reason that I - a Bi Switch - am rather overly selective about where, when and around whom I allow myself to be submissive around

I'm glad to hear it.

I worry sometimes, a little, that the slow but steady mainstreaming of BDSM both in SL and RL, alongside models (I'm looking at you, E. L. James) that do a crappy job of representing the complexities of BDSM, are creating an ever-increasing pool of poorly informed, and hence incautious, subs.

[Selene Gregoire]

37 minutes ago, Solar Legion said:

As many others have already said ... Banned based on something as trivial as a Profile Pick? So what, move on - they're not worth the time.

On the side discussion surrounding BDSM and the fine line between it and abuse: There's a reason that I - a Bi Switch - am rather overly selective about where, when and around whom I allow myself to be submissive around ...

I am neither dominant nor submissive. You can't always tell someone is abusive. I'd been with the ***** for a year before I ever found out he was a junkie and I only found out because he wanted me to allow him to bring that ***** into my house. The abuse didn't start until after we moved to Texas where I was out of reach of any family or friends.

Being selective doesn't always mean safe.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Selene Gregoire

[Rolig Loon]

8 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

This, and my natural introversion, is what makes me more observer than activist. The Law of Unintended Consequences is compounded by crowds, creating the negative corollary to "Safety in Numbers".

My own natural introversion yells at me to stay away from perilous conversations too. I can easily be outraged inside the confines of my own head, but I rarely grab my torch and pitchfork and do something about it.   It's tough to lead a howling mob when you're not really a crowd person.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

8 hours ago, kiramanell said:

Hate fawning all over you again, LOL, but I really *do* enjoy reading your stimulating posts.  

Kira, you must stop saying such nice things! You're turning my pretty little Bento-enabled mesh head! I'll soon become absolutely unbearable if you don't stop!

I'm glad you're responding though: I wouldn't have quoted your post had I not hoped you would do so!

8 hours ago, kiramanell said:

Outside of outright banishable behavior, I can certainly see legitimate reasons for banning ppl -- and pretty much for all the balanced reasons you mentioned. Especially in the realm of women who were abused in their lives. I'm not unfamilar with the subject, so I can smell a potential trigger a mile wide. Even if I had already decided I wanted them off my sim, I think I would still try and talk to them first, though; if for nothing else, just to say "Look, this isn't going to work out; I think your presence and/or stuff in your Profile will be disruptive here. So, I feel I need to ask you to leave." I mean, I can always ban after that, should talking fail.

I think talking to someone first is not only sensible, but just plain courteous. And, honestly, if people aren't being told why their picks may be a problem, then they're not really in a position to do anything about them in the future. So, yes, I agree.

8 hours ago, kiramanell said:

Reason I thought that outright banning the OP felt a bit over-the-top, is precisely because no one tried to communicate with her first. I usually only check people's Profile for support of their product. I'm not a content creator myself, so I don't think I even have Picks; or if I do, very old ones. Point is just, like me, someone might have something in their Picks they completely forgot about. Like maybe a slurl to an art gallery (which might even have erotic content in it too). In those cases, I might still ask them to remove that stuff; but outright ban?! That doesn't feel like something I would resort to. Unlike, you say, there was clear, unredeemable hatespeech in their Profile or something.

I haven't touched the Picks in my profile in . . . 8 years? Maybe more? Which is actually not very clever: they are public content, just as any other part of your profile is. They are one of the ways in which we can communicate something about ourselves. Ironically, when I'm profile stalking, I always look at, and usually read, the Picks. In that context, it's kind of dumb that I haven't done anything about updating mine: they are somewhat important ways of establishing our identity.

And that in turn means that I think it's justified to take them seriously when there is something problematic about them. Having a topless pic of yourself in your picks isn't quite the same thing as showing up topless to a G rated club, obviously, but there is a kind of analogy there.

Interesting question, though . . . let's say someone does have something really vile in their picks, such as a blatantly and offensively homophobic screed. Is having them remove it sufficient? Or might you be justified in simply saying, "I don't want a person who would say such hateful things in my club"? I wouldn't make the same distinction about, say, a nude picture, but I might about other types of content.

8 hours ago, kiramanell said:

When I talked about fair, I meant it in the sense of ' treating someone in a way that is right or reasonable.' And having the right, doesn't necessary mean it's the right thing to do. In Law, we have what's called the Principle of Legality. In its strictest form, it's implemented the way our Penal Code is set up, effectively stating nothing is punishable which isn't explicitely mentioned as punishable by the Penal Code. Seen looser, you could think about a TOS: a set of rules you need to abide by, and, if not, you're in violation. And it's kinda customary not to punish ppl, unless they violated a rule. Linden Lab, for instance, could ban any of us, at any time, for any reason, because they 'reserve the right.' Doesn't mean they do so haphazardly, though. As a matter of practicality, they mostly really only do so if you broke a rule. And that makes perfect sense (otherwise, why even have a lenghty Code of Conduct you need to adhere to?).

I'm landing this plane, honestly. 😜 My point just is, that yes, while sim owners can ban whoever they see fit, I still hope they are guided by some localized version of the Principle of Legality, and really only ban ppl when they violated a clearly spelled-out rule. Or, that if they do so for others reasons, that they will at least tell you. The latter really also helps ppl improve their behavior: you can't quite remedy your errors, when you didn't even know where you went wrong.

This is sensible, although . . . how comprehensive would such a list of prohibited content need to be? How comprehensive could it be, realistically?

One way around that might be to reference SL's own Community Standards, which are (in this context) conveniently vague. Someone with a nude pic on their profile probably should be aware that nudity is not equally welcome everywhere in SL; the CS codifies that, even if it doesn't make reference to picks directly. Someone with something really hateful in the Picks is almost certainly aware that it is hateful, or at least considered hateful by most; that too is dealt with in the CS. The Community Standards provide a useful way of underlining how content like this is inappropriate, I think, and provide a ready-made code that everyone should already know.

[Selene Gregoire]

Every time I read the thread title I see it as "Prokofy pick got me banned". 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

1 minute ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Every time I read the thread title I see it as "Prokofy pick got me banned". 

That too. In a shot.

[Alyona Su]

There are far too many interesting, fascinating, fun places to go and things to do in SL that getting banned from a region or two is no loss. I see it this way: There is no place in SL that is so important that being banned from it should matter for more than a few minutes; not because of losing access to that pace, but rather the surprise of being banned at all (feels like an insult, right?) Move on, find something better, there always is.

[Love Zhaoying]

8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

8 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Every time I read the thread title I see it as "Prokofy pick got me banned". 

That too. In a shot.

Haven’t heard much from Prok on here lately.

[Eva Knoller]

So my anecdote is that I have never been banned from anywhere in SL that I can recall. I am clearly doing something wrong. Anyone have a region they can ban me from? Do you get a notification of some sort? 

[kiramanell]

8 hours ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Kira, you must stop saying such nice things! You're turning my pretty little Bento-enabled mesh head! I'll soon become absolutely unbearable if you don't stop!

Hehe, okay, I will cut it out. 😍 As for your 'pretty little Bento-enabled mesh head', that forum picture actually really does look wickedly awesome! (Mine is just a dumb screen-grab, LOL). So styllish! I mean, is there anything you don't do elegantly?! Oh wait, oops, I think I just experienced a small relapse. 😁

Quote

Interesting question, though . . . let's say someone does have something really vile in their picks, such as a blatantly and offensively homophobic screed. Is having them remove it sufficient? Or might you be justified in simply saying, "I don't want a person who would say such hateful things in my club"? I wouldn't make the same distinction about, say, a nude picture, but I might about other types of content.

Should I ever encounter truly offensive stuff in someone's Picks, in all honesty, I think I'd outright ban them; like 'offensively homophobic screed,' white supremacist material, etc. Because that sort of thing simply makes them irredeemable in my eyes (to the point where I simply do not WANT to talk to them even): that type of hate-speech is deliberate, and massively beyond a simple misunderstanding. A nude picture in a Pick? I'd frown on that, if the sim I was governing were strictly 'G' rated; and I'd ask them to remove it, for sure, but I wouldnt outright ban them. And I would gently remind them, as you lined out, that you're not supposed to have outright nudity in your Profile to begin with.

Quote

his is sensible, although . . . how comprehensive would such a list of prohibited content need to be? How comprehensive could it be, realistically?

One way around that might be to reference SL's own Community Standards, which are (in this context) conveniently vague. Someone with a nude pic on their profile probably should be aware that nudity is not equally welcome everywhere in SL; the CS codifies that, even if it doesn't make reference to picks directly. Someone with something really hateful in the Picks is almost certainly aware that it is hateful, or at least considered hateful by most; that too is dealt with in the CS. The Community Standards provide a useful way of underlining how content like this is inappropriate, I think, and provide a ready-made code that everyone should already know.

You make a very good point. Clearly, the list cannot be fully exhaustive. And sometimes -- going slightly against my own, earlier argument, LOL -- you don't always want the rules to be too precise, indeed. For instance, when usenet was still a thing, I was following a rather interesting discussion about how much spam-posts a server should allow. And one of the usenet operators said something I had never considered before. He said "Well, if we tell people the threshold of spam-ads lies at X posts, ere we start culling, then all that will do, is that, from now on, they will just make X-1 such posts."

Which is really what makes your point about the existence of the Community Standards such a apt one. And, in fact, the German Penal Code actually does allow to make acts punishable, even though those acts aren't literally mentioned in the Penal Code. And I reckon for exactly the same reason you gave about nudity: sometimes it's reasonable to say ppl should have been aware that their behavior was deemed unwanted.

[Polenth Yue]

33 minutes ago, Eva Knoller said:

So my anecdote is that I have never been banned from anywhere in SL that I can recall. I am clearly doing something wrong. Anyone have a region they can ban me from? Do you get a notification of some sort? 

You don't get told unless you try to enter the banned area, so we all could be banned from many locations we've never thought to visit.

[Scylla Rhiadra]

52 minutes ago, Eva Knoller said:

So my anecdote is that I have never been banned from anywhere in SL that I can recall. I am clearly doing something wrong. Anyone have a region they can ban me from? Do you get a notification of some sort? 

I haven't been banned from anywhere (that I know of) in FOREVER!

Let's do it!!

Edited July 29, 2019 by Scylla Rhiadra

[Eva Knoller]

8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I haven't been banned from anywhere (that I know of) in FOREVER!

Let's do it!!

Yasss!!! Let’s cause some ruckus on the scooters. 😆