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Profile Pick got me banned

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1 hour ago, kiramanell said:

You bring up a good question, though: is traveling to a sim with a 'wrong' pick in your profile, really a good reason to ban someone? Yes, ppl can ban you for whatever reason, and their rules, and yada, yada, yada; but is it fair? I think it's probably a bit over-the-top, tbh. And I'm sorry it happened to you.

I think this is a fascinating question; it's one I've never really thought about.

I spend a good deal of my time in a group-owned mainland parcel that is explicitly, both in search and on the map, "feminist": it's in the name of the parcel. And, not too often but maybe 3 or 4 times a year, I'll be busy doing whatever there and will be approached by one or more people who have clearly dropped by to bait and/or argue with me about feminism. On one particularly memorable occasion, maybe 6 months ago, a male Dom showed up with his female sub on a leash, and treated me to an explicit account of all of the utterly degrading things he planned to do to her. (She seemed a little embarrassed about it, and actually IMed me a sort of apology.)

I have the ability to ban such people from the parcel, but I don't: instead, I try to engage them until it becomes obvious (which it almost invariably does) that it's pointless doing so. Then I just ignore them, and they usually just wander off. The only people I've ever banned were a couple who were indisputably griefers, and who had shown up merely to disrupt public events with chat spam or noise on voice.

So, I'd be in my "rights" to ban someone who had something particularly hateful in the picks, or even in their groups. And, in some instances, I'd be justified by a need to keep people safe: events and meetings we've held there have often included women who have been abused or sexually assaulted in RL, and who are suffering, in effect, from PTSD as a result. I've never done it, and I'm not sure I would, but I can actually see a legitimate argument for banning people for certain kinds of profile content -- not, I think, merely sexually explicit stuff, but actually hateful things.

I'll have to give this some more thought. To be honest, I hate bans, but this is a public sim, and maybe I have a responsibility for others who also use it?

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2 hours ago, Rhonda Huntress said:

I once got banned from a club for saying the place was full of the wildest animals in SL.

/me shrugs

 

Was it furry?

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13 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'd be justified by a need to keep people safe: events and meetings we've held there have often included women who have been abused or sexually assaulted in RL, and who are suffering, in effect, from PTSD as a result. I've never done it, and I'm not sure I would, but I can actually see a legitimate argument for banning people for certain kinds of profile content -- not, I think, merely sexually explicit stuff, but actually hateful things.

I've been in such a situation, where I had the ability to ban someone who was harassing someone else. Rather than ban, I offered support to the victim in real-time via IM. I reasoned (perhaps incorrectly) that it was ultimately more useful to offer her a chainsaw and operating lessons than to clear her path through the undergrowth myself. Every girl should know how to use a chainsaw.

8 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I'll have to give this some more thought.

As we do.

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Since profiles are to be "G" rated, I suppose it makes some sense in a very persnickety sort of way that someone might ban you for not complying with that rule. Personally, I'd leave that up to LL to enforce, but hey ho. I can't imagine a place that uptight about enforcing profile ratings would be too much fun to visit, so I'm going with "they did you a favor". 

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1 minute ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Every girl should know how to use a chainsaw.

When I was living in an ashram in the mountains in Tennessee, the group would clear trees occasionally in case of hard freeze / blizzard, so the trees would not fall on power lines or houses. One year, the Guru was using a chainsaw to clear trees and it bounced off something and he cut his leg. I suppose the lesson is, have mindfulness when using a chainsaw, because even a guru can make a mistake with one.

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6 minutes ago, Sylvia Tamalyn said:

Since profiles are to be "G" rated, I suppose it makes some sense in a very persnickety sort of way that someone might ban you for not complying with that rule. Personally, I'd leave that up to LL to enforce, but hey ho. I can't imagine a place that uptight about enforcing profile ratings would be too much fun to visit, so I'm going with "they did you a favor". 

I’ve seen explicit RL nude pics in profiles..

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1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

When I was living in an ashram in the mountains in Tennessee, the group would clear trees occasionally in case of hard freeze / blizzard, so the trees would not fall on power lines or houses. One year, the Guru was using a chainsaw to clear trees and it bounced off something and he cut his leg. I suppose the lesson is, have mindfulness when using a chainsaw, because even a guru can make a mistake with one.

Yep. I have two black toes at the moment, from dropping logs on my foot while trying to split them. Had I been thinking, I'd have been wearing my steel-toed work boots, not my Topsiders. The underlying truth in virtually anything we do is that we are often our own worst enemies.

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Every girl should know how to use a chainsaw.

Totally. (Not that I do. I'm sorry, I feel terribly inadequate.)

In 2008, I created an online and in-world "Newbie Woman's Second Life Survival Kit" which included sections on safety and how to respond to harassment. Needless to say (2008!), it's now very badly out of date (and the online version is gone), but that was the intention: to equip women (and, for that matter, men) with the tools to deal with this sort of thing themselves.

I can only recall a couple of instances where weekly meetings were "disrupted" by people who came there to bait us (these are distinct from the griefers I mentioned above: those were at public events).

As I recall, faced with the collective responses of between 8 and 12 women, they didn't fare well.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra

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4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I’ve seen explicit RL nude pics in profiles..

Yeesh. Constantly. I see one of those at least once a week.

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28 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I spend a good deal of my time in a group-owned mainland parcel that is explicitly, both in search and on the map, "feminist": it's in the name of the parcel. And, not too often but maybe 3 or 4 times a year, I'll be busy doing whatever there and will be approached by one or more people who have clearly dropped by to bait and/or argue with me about feminism. On one particularly memorable occasion, maybe 6 months ago, a male Dom showed up with his female sub on a leash, and treated me to an explicit account of all of the utterly degrading things he planned to do to her. (She seemed a little embarrassed about it, and actually IMed me a sort of apology.)

I have the ability to ban such people from the parcel, but I don't: instead, I try to engage them until it becomes obvious (which it almost invariably does) that it's pointless doing so. Then I just ignore them, and they usually just wander off. The only people I've ever banned were a couple who were indisputably griefers, and who had shown up merely to disrupt public events with chat spam or noise on voice.

So, I'd be in my "rights" to ban someone who had something particularly hateful in the picks, or even in their groups. And, in some instances, I'd be justified by a need to keep people safe: events and meetings we've held there have often included women who have been abused or sexually assaulted in RL, and who are suffering, in effect, from PTSD as a result. I've never done it, and I'm not sure I would, but I can actually see a legitimate argument for banning people for certain kinds of profile content -- not, I think, merely sexually explicit stuff, but actually hateful things.

I'll have to give this some more thought. To be honest, I hate bans, but this is a public sim, and maybe I have a responsibility for others who also use it?

You're a far better human being than I am (though we already knew that). I don't have a problem with people being leashed consensually by other people. In this context, though, it was so abundantly clear from the off that he was a completely irredeemable pillock who would not ever be deterred from his sole motive of causing offence that I'd have blocked him on sight to prevent any protest and then simply swung the mighty banhammer without saying a word. Sure, he'd have gone around complaining about it and perhaps claiming that he'd "won", but he'd have done the same no matter what you said to him. There was plainly no way to have any sort of worthwhile interaction with him so why waste any time? 

Besides, I quite like the idea of a bullish pinheaded dumbinant farting around telling anyone who'll listen that he tried to take his leashed female sub to a feminist sim to cause trouble and they just booted him out on his ear without a word because apparently he forgot they could do that. It tickles me.

I don't really have a problem with bans, tbh. They seem mostly to be sort of self regulating. If I'm banned from a place, it's either been a genuine mistake that got sorted quickly or it's because, while I'm not actually trying to cause trouble, I'm such a bad fit for the place that I shouldn't be there anyway. I'm thinking specifically of the Gor sims that banned me for things like refusing to go along with having my tongue cut out while being covered in sewage and vomit. Fun fact: death RP in Gor is actually acceptable because if you're in that place, it's clearly euthanasia.

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5 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Stop going back to it!

But it's soooooooo good!

And, of course, ABSOLUTELY GENUINE.

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15 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I’ve seen explicit RL nude pics in profiles..

As have I, but there's no indication that was the case here. The OP said she had an adult location in her Picks, nothing more. We don't even know if there was anything naughty at all about what was shown. 

If someone is poking into profiles and sees an explicit RL nude pic, they can always AR it. 

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9 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

In 2008, I created an online and in-world "Newbie Woman's Second Life Survival Kit" which included sections on safety and how to respond to harassment.

That was yours?  It was a fine piece of work.  I just dragged my copy out of inventory for a look. Sadly, you've become anonymous.

eb4dd0cfb1e2aa82f52cd93c0b531262.png

I managed reference resources for the Community Virtual Library in SL for many years, and I made sure that there was a copy in the basic materials at the desk, so volunteers would be able to hand it out to women who were trying to figure out how this place works.  As you say, some of the information is way out of date now, but the fundamentals still work.

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

You're a far better human being than I am (though we already knew that).

You've never had to deal with me in the morning before coffee.

18 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

I don't have a problem with people being leashed consensually by other people. In this context, though, it was so abundantly clear from the off that he was a completely irredeemable pillock who would not ever be deterred from his sole motive of causing offence that I'd have blocked him on sight to prevent any protest and then simply swung the mighty banhammer without saying a word. Sure, he'd have gone around complaining about it and perhaps claiming that he'd "won", but he'd have done the same no matter what you said to him. There was plainly no way to have any sort of worthwhile interaction with him so why waste any time?

Yeah, I don't have a problem with a leash per se either. At least, I do, but not in the sense that I'd act, or even comment upon it. There are plenty of both Dommes and subs in my feminist groups. ("Some of my best friends are into BDSM! You can't possibly accuse me of being prejudiced!!!!")

But, as you correctly infer, he wasn't making reference to BDSM as a non-gendered consensual choice: this was all about explicitly degrading women (and, by clear implication, not just his sub, who was a consensual partner in that).

I try very very hard not to ban or AR people or things, even here on the forums. There is an unfortunate tendency (which, sadly, feminists brought upon themselves in the 70s and 80s) to assume that feminism is about censorship. It isn't anymore, and hasn't been for a while, and I myself have always been anti-censorship anyway. I probably overcompensate for the public perception of feminists as ban-happy harpies by going to the other extreme. I suppose it's situational; I can imagine circumstances in which I would. But so far, I haven't felt the need to.

18 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

I'm thinking specifically of the Gor sims that banned me for things like refusing to go along with having my tongue cut out while being covered in sewage and vomit.

You're really a very difficult person, aren't you?

18 minutes ago, Amina Sopwith said:

Fun fact: death RP in Gor is actually acceptable because if you're in that place, it's clearly euthanasia.

This is clearly bumper-sticker worthy.

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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18 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Totally. (Not that I do. I'm sorry, I feel terribly inadequate.)

In 2008, I created an online and in-world "Newbie Woman's Second Life Survival Kit" which included sections on safety and how to respond to harassment. Needless to say (2008!), it's now very badly out of date (and the online version is gone), but that was the intention: to equip women (and, for that matter, men) with the tools to deal with this sort of thing themselves.

I can only recall a couple of instances where weekly meetings were "disrupted" by people who came there to bait us (these are distinct from the griefers I mentioned above: those were at public events).

As I recall, faced with the collective responses of between 8 and 12 women, they didn't fare well.

Hence my "perhaps incorrectly". The further along I get in life, the more I realize that the tools in my workshop work best in my hands and that I'm limited in my ability to determine what tools other people might find useful.

And, as proof of that inability, I seem to have made you feel terribly inadequate!

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18 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Stop going back to it!

She's using the ARs as an excuse to look. *nods sagely*

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

That was yours?  It was a fine piece of work.  I just dragged my copy out of inventory for a look. Sadly, you've become anonymous.

eb4dd0cfb1e2aa82f52cd93c0b531262.png

I managed reference resources for the Community Virtual Library in SL for many years, and I made sure that there was a copy in the basic materials at the desk, so volunteers would be able to hand it out to women who were trying to figure out how this place works.  As you say, some of the information is way out of date now, but the fundamentals still work.

OMG.

Yes, it was. It was one of the first tasks I took on for myself when I first came into SL and joined the Feminist Network! We've still got a few vendors around the place that, I assume, still dispense them.

I've been thinking, in a not-very-purposeful way, that I should do a new version. Maybe one day . . .

ETA: I am really really delighted to hear that it got put to good use elsewhere! You've made my day, Rolig! Thank you!

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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2 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Hence my "perhaps incorrectly". The further along I get in life, the more I realize that the tools in my workshop work best in my hands and that I'm limited in my ability to determine what tools other people might find useful.

And, as proof of that inability, I seem to have made you feel terribly inadequate!

grouphug.gif.796a0336f7f976c10c9a05a6e6ee04e1.gif

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1 minute ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I've been thinking, in a not-very-purposeful way, that I should do a new version. Maybe one day . . .

Gosh. Over the years, I created or co-created several several parcel-sized exhibits that we used that kit in.  We had a "Hope for Women" exhibit in 2011 that was primarily about women's rights issues on a global scale, and then two different exhibits on human trafficking (in 2012? and 2014).  Your survival kit was a nice way to tie those exhibits to the in-world experience in SL.  If you do ever update it, I'm sure that CVL and plenty of other places would be interested.  I no longer have anything to do with the group, but I still have many friends in that community, always eager for material.

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Just now, Rolig Loon said:

Gosh. Over the years, I created or co-created several several parcel-sized exhibits that we used that kit in.  We had a "Hope for Women" exhibit in 2011 that was primarily about women's rights issues on a global scale, and then two different exhibits on human trafficking (in 2012? and 2014).  Your survival kit was a nice way to tie those exhibits to the in-world experience in SL.  If you do ever update it, I'm sure that CVL and plenty of other places would be interested.  I no longer have anything to do with the group, but I still have many friends in that community, always eager for material.

Well, I can't think of a better incentive!

I remember the human trafficking exhibit! Probably the 2014 one; I think my alt, Laskya, went to it. (She took me along in her handbag.)

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14 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

You've never had to deal with me in the morning before coffee.

Bring it.
 

14 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I try very very hard not to ban or AR people or things, even here on the forums. There is an unfortunate tendency (which, sadly, feminist brought upon themselves in the 70s and 80s) to assume that feminism is about censorship. It isn't anymore, and hasn't been for a while, and I myself have always been anti-censorship anyway. I probably overcompensate the public perception of feminists as ban-happy harpies by going to the other extreme. I suppose it's situational; I can imagine circumstances in which I would. But so far, I haven't felt the need to.

Not sure I agree on the 70s and 80s feminists thing, although in that period I either wasn't there or wasn't in any position to appreciate what was going on. Every instance of feminism in any century has been deluged by attempts to trivialise and delegitimise it as something it really isn't. Is there really anything you could have said to this plonker that would have left him with a positive impression of you and your sim? Ok, so perhaps he couldn't have claimed you were censoring him, but he'd still have been able to call you sexually repressive, irrational, all the rest. There's an anti-feminist stereotype for every occasion. 

I am glad that there are people like you because you're clearly fighting the good fight better than I am. I do agree with discourse and communication being the only ways to really effect any change. But there's got to be some receptive channel, however small or weirdly shaped, and in this case it was just so obvious that the only way to win with this halfwit was not to play. One of the advantages of SL is that there's a perfect mute switch for hateful idiots on nothing but transmit. 

I don't think banning from a privately owned sim counts as censorship anyway. He's free to leash his sub, he's free to talk like a dribbling backside about it, but nobody owes him a platform.


 

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3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

I remember the human trafficking exhibit! Probably the 2014 one; I think my alt, Laskya, went to it. (She took me along in her handbag.)

That was the scary one.  We put the focus on runaways and undocumented women, who are particularly vulnerable.  We had to put a warning at the entrance to let people know that some of it was pretty intense.  I don't know that I would ever do that again.  Even with the warning it was hard to deal with.

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3 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

(She took me along in her handbag.)

At first i was gonna post a pic of a bag lady but then I thought nah... you're a wee bit cuter than that.

 

hh142?wid=500&hei=375&fmt=pjpeg&pscan=au

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Posted (edited)

Going back to Scylla's encounter with the Dom, there's another angle, which I might have played. Scylla mentioned that the sub IMed her a sort of apology. That's the foot-in-the-door I'd be inclined to take, engaging her rather than him. It's nefarious and has potential to backfire, but we are talking about MY angle.

Edited by Madelaine McMasters
Changed "toe" to "foot" because... ouch!
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