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Zed Avedon

Its amazing how strong SL seems to be!?

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1 minute ago, Nalates Urriah said:

How did you come to that conclusion the media is 'well intentioned'?

When it comes to marketing SL lay people want to go with what they think and that is based on what they have heard and observed in their RL world and social circles along with their preferences, which color everything. The pro people go with marketing studies (not the egghead kind of study) and objective data. In the US the LGBTQ... demogrphic makes up between 3 to 5 % of the popuation and 11% that have 'experiemneted' with best estimates nearer 3% for those with a consistent preference of LGBTQ. But, almost every statement of these numbers comes from a single original source. The numbers for world-wide are unknown because of the distortion introduced by totalatarian governments.

Marketing-wise one would only target a corresponding percent of the marketing budget at that demogrphic unless your product or service better served them and ad dollars produced better results with that group. Conversely, if the remaining 97% of the market has an aversion to your efforts to target the LGBTQ demogrphic you must decide if you can target your LGBTQ ads well enough to not get the 97% face of whether to reduce or forego that promotions. In the Internet age targeting is marviously accurate. If Google has done there job well, you are a straight person are not going to see the ads or at least few.

Of course we do have to deal with an ad manager's decisions, which are often not objective or practical. Nike made a decision that annoys a large majority of US citizens. I can't see that as a 'business' or 'financially smart' decision. I class it in the realm of politcal statements. The Lab has some of the challenges, base decisions on what is best for the Lab or participate in some degree with social issues...

As to 'not wanting any part of that'... Since Plato's time the thinkers have known better,

I am not saying you are apathic. But, that addage '...good men standby...' If you don't like it, get in the middle of it and clean it up.

So, with catering to the LGBTQ community... I think it smart to assure they know they are welcome and provide information they can easily find as to what is avialable in SL. I also think that effort has to be kept proportional to the demographic they make up.

If one wants to avoid offending the LGBTQ peeps then why would it not also be important to avoid offending those in the other 97%?

 

6 hours ago, RaeLeeH said:

Bows out of the gender/sexual identity/whatever term you least find offensive conversation this has become.

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8 hours ago, animats said:

Um, yes. In SL, by the way, gender is a floating point number between 0.0 and 1.0.

I think gender might actually be a vector of unknown dimensionality.

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20 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

Why is always the answer somewhere in these threads

Make sl more gamey.

Because the same features that would let us make games in SL would also allow us to create more engaging non-game environments. Not to mention those same "gamey" features will allow LL to make more effective tutorials, mitigating SL's steep learning curve. SL used to have a vibrant educational community, and that community would benefit greatly from such features. Not to mention the ever popular sailing and airplane communities in Second Life.

For example, in one of the clubs I sometimes go to they added NPC animesh characters around the club. These characters were scripted so you could interact with them. In addition to adding to the atmosphere of the club, they'd point out club features and how to use them. Things that would otherwise be easy to overlook. 

"Gamey" features can also be instrumental in getting people to socialize. If you go to a club where there's nothing to do but stand around, play dance animations, and try to find someone else who's active and wants to chat you're going to be far less successful than if you go to a club and there's a working, and engaging, bocce ball game on the deck outside. (This is part of the reason bars in real life tend to have pool tables, dart boards and other games.)

Also remember that the better LL's business is, the better SL's future is. So getting elitist about who LL should be marketing SL towards is self destructive.

20 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

As for point 2 Its ugly

Well no SL isnt ugly and where it is, well thats mainly down to the residents itself. The only place you have a point is the linden builds

The Linden builds were my entire point. The new user experience, apotential new SL resident's first exposure to SL should draw them in, not push them away.

20 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

For point 3 It runs poorly

Well it does on potato pc's. Seems to run just fine on mine and my pc is almost 5 years old now

I'm always highly skeptical of people who make claims like this. Every single time it turns out they're ignoring some pretty glaring performance issues (like texture thrashing, low fps, or graphical stutter), that they're just so used to seeing in SL that it's become background noise to them. From the computer you described, if you are not getting a consistent 60fps at max settings and never need to turn your graphics down at all for busy areas, then SL is running fine on your 5 year old PC. For how SL looks, you should never experience texture thrashing, severe fps drops, or any other graphics issues.

Lowered expectations tend to be the kool-aid of choice in SL. 

And regarding "potato PCs", most of them should run SL fine, too. Or at least respectably, depending on just how spud-like the computer in question is. Which brings us back to that self-destructive elitism. "SL runs fine for me, so who cares how it runs for anyone else?" How are you enjoying those fee hikes LL introduced because they need to shore up their profits in the face of a dwindling userbase? You got to have a broader view of these things.

20 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

Better tools may well be a great thing but at the end of the day would it really bring in more people or retain people to a large enough extent to make it worth it.

Yes. Undoubtedly. How is this even a question?

15 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

Penny makes valid points. But, are these the things that the Lab really should do? Or are they just Penny's opinion?  They are her opinions. I agree with most. But, if I were to be spending my money I would want something more than one person's opinion.

I agree completely that LL should be seeking multiple opinions and I also agree with some of the suggestions in this thread on LL reaching out to active and inactive users for feedback, and that LL should be making better use of their ability to collect relevant metrics. I have also read Longevity in Second Life (ok, so I only read it just now, but I have read it), it's a very interesting study and I believe it correlates with a lot of my views on how LL should be developing SL's social tools, (the study seems to show that people stick around more when they have a broader range of friends in SL with whom they interact regularly) improving the marketplace, the creation tools, and generally working to reduce confusion with regards to SL and products sold within SL (as the study also shows that as people spend money in SL they become more invested. Moreso when it's money paid to other SL users rather than LL directly. ). The emphasis being on the social engagement angle.

I see the study was done in 2009,  I think it would have been interesting to see what additional data they'd have gained by continuing the study through the SL bust and first year or two of the SL recession.

I don't usually toot my own horn here on the forums when it comes to my credentials, especially considering that I subscribe to the "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" view of SL social interactions, but I majored in computer animation, multi-media and game design. I have nearly 20 years of design experience and I also happen to have been in SL since 2005. In addition I've been an art instructor, teaching all ages between pre-schoolers to adults, and in both the public and private sector. While I do agree LL shouldn't act on my opinions alone, I do hope that my background, as well as my body of SL work,  adds some perspective and weight to those opinions.

 

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I don't think that adding my opinion really makes any difference in anything, but FWIW, the two biggest factors for my interest in SL were social interactions and dancing to music I loved.

When I first came to SL, I almost immediately found clubs that provided both, and formed bonds with the clubs and a lot of people. Unfortunately, the clubs all died and the people all left, I have been unable to find places to replace them. The clubs that exist now that have music I like are completely non-social; at my old clubs, people interacted lot in open chat. Now, everything happens in IMs between people who don't even look at chat. And that makes it hard to meet new people. It doesn't help that most of the clubs with music I like are mostly frequently by people in Europe, so the times are all wrong for me.

I have left SL for long periods several time over the last few years. I come back occasionally and try to connect, but it has not really worked out. I joined Bloodlines and have gone through two or three clans. The one I really loved fell apart and died, and in spite of me spending a lot of time and money, I have never formed any long term friendships there. I regularly search for clubs and other places, and don't really find much I like (the Search function is horrid, that doesn't help, either).

Of course, the problem is really me, I know a lot of people have been in SL and still enjoy it and make friends. Me, I miss the old days, SL was soooo different back then, there were a lot more people and places that fit with me. I know most people love the changes, the introduction of mesh and all that. For me, though, I would go back to the less visually attractive SL that had places I liked and people I loved.

Honestly, I have never had any interest in the technical side, or in building or selling. I learn new stuff only when I absolutely have to. I just want to come hang out and dance and interact with people. That is what drew me here in the first place, and the off chance of finding that again is what keeps me here. Maybe some other people join SL for the same reason (there were a lot of us like that long ago), and for them perhaps the biggest draw and the best way to keep them engaged would be for SL to do a far, far better job with the Destination Guide and Search so people can actually get engaged quickly. Of course, for that to work, you need places that are friendly and open instead of quiet and cliquey, and that might be the harder part. The continuing lag doesn't help either. Any time I go to a club with more than a few people, the visual experience degrades to almost nothing. I am not sure what mesh bodies and heads gain us when the system can't keep up.

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3 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

 

Yes. Undoubtedly. How is this even a question?

 

I think you missed my main point here. Would it increase the amount of people in sl...yes not disputing that. What I am saying is will it increase the amount of people in SL by enough to make it worth the lab spending the time and money to make those tools over doing something like bento. What percentage of sl users are actually creators that would use these tools.

 

As to the gamey side, yes you have a point about being able to make more game like introductions to SL. However I believe from what I have read here that they used to do that and had a series of tasks to complete. They took it away presumably because it wasnt working. Now it maybe the people who would like this addition is a large number, for example I ride motorcycles here and would better physics help there. Yes undoubtedly.....however how big a group really are vehicle users. I don't get the impression its that large, vocal but again a small percentage.

All I was trying to point out is that with limited resources they need to target the work they do to target the largest number and retain them. We all have our pet projects we would love to see but realistically we need the lab to work on whats best for overall health of SL.

As to my pc, well the only place I find I have to drop down from ultra is Franks and that place is often mostly full of prim people with flexi's and sculpties most everywhere else I get over 60 fps and the only lag I get is network induced

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9 hours ago, animats said:

"By far it is interaction with others, whether friends or strangers, that correlated most with long user life."

Somehow, I have got to find a way to stop being an exception to the rule. xD

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2 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Somehow, I have got to find a way to stop being an exception to the rule. xD

Go out have fun talk to people. Most don't have 2 heads and are friendly....my turn to be the exception

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7 hours ago, BelindaN said:

Once I had a go at Morris dancing........... Although it looks and sounds rather odd, it was such good fun. Ok the alcohol probably helped.

It does look like fun! Except for the sticks...

 

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2 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

It does look like fun! Except for the sticks...

 

and what is wrong with wiffle sticks?

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1 hour ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

I think gender might actually be a vector of unknown dimensionality.

Why is it that the mention of gender issues frequently produces hierarchical ordered lists offering advice on what one should most be concerned about -- and with, of course, 'gender issues' landing at the bottom.
I'm quite capable of being offended by many things at once -- no need to prioritize.

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SL is stagnant, not strong.  I think it's safe to say there hasn't been any user growth in years.  It's to be expected though since SL is 16 years old now.  The userbase is also old and i'm guessing the average age is 40+ by now.  The youth today doesn't know about SL or virtual worlds.  They know about Fortnite and VR.

Not to go off topic, but LL messed up with Sansar.  They could've used Sansar to bring in a new generation of teens and young adults, as well as the existing SL userbase.  Except it didn't happen for various reasons.  They pretty much failed on the VR front and alienated their core SL base, which left Sansar empty.  If they would've catered to their existing SL base, they could've at least had some people in Sansar still.

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4 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:
9 hours ago, animats said:

"By far it is interaction with others, whether friends or strangers, that correlated most with long user life."

Somehow, I have got to find a way to stop being an exception to the rule. xD

Animats' quote pertains to RL as well...
https://www.health.harvard.edu/mental-health/can-relationships-boost-longevity-and-well-being

As a fairly asocial atheist who's seen plenty of compelling research to suggest I'm on the wrong path, it looks like the burden of staying alive is on my shoulders.

Hopefully I can live with that.

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On 7/7/2019 at 11:44 AM, Beth Macbain said:
On 7/7/2019 at 11:27 AM, Luna Bliss said:

BTW, I'm at work as we speak creating a new Instant Garden for heterosexuals, named "Heterosexuals In The Grass"....just because they are so traumatized by attention being given to gays lately....I just want them to know society still thinks of them.

Stop that! I'm not supposed to like you, remember? 

(That's hilarious, btw... have an olive branch.)

Ok, I like trees     :)

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1 hour ago, Penny Patton said:

I don't usually toot my own horn here on the forums when it comes to my credentials, especially considering that I subscribe to the "what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas" view of SL social interactions, but I majored in computer animation, multi-media and game design. I have nearly 20 years of design experience and I also happen to have been in SL since 2005. In addition I've been an art instructor, teaching all ages between pre-schoolers to adults, and in both the public and private sector. While I do agree LL shouldn't act on my opinions alone, I do hope that my background, as well as my body of SL work,  adds some perspective and weight to those opinions.

I think you have been successful in that regard. You have influenced my thinking.

While I cannot say definitively that you have influenced Lindens, they often are moving in directions you point. 

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On 7/7/2019 at 8:17 AM, Penny Patton said:

Create an SL calendar. The calendar could be integrated with profiles, event listings, groups and land. When at a location in SL you could open the calendar to see upcoming events listed at that location. With the calendar open you could see all events for all of the groups you were a part of, or filter to specific groups. For events you were interested in, you could set reminders, so SL would remind you when an event was coming up. You could see account creation dates for your friends so you could wish them a happy SL birthday. Group anniversaries. Partnership anniversaries. Etc.

I think this is a good idea. I have more than one alt, and I don't sign every one of them up for the same groups for many reasons, thus it often happens that I am 'wearing the wrong alt' when group announcements are made. Yes, there is Google Calendar, but that presupposes I am organized -- also some of my groups don't schedule things far in advance.

I've recently spent several hours trying to be a 'helper' at events and at a newbie welcome center, and I'm finding that there are a large number of volunteers putting long hours into helping newcomers, but there doesn't seem to be any over-all strategy. I'm currently surveying the different newbie help centers and they vary tremendously in number of attendees, number of volunteers, information offered, and relevance of information offered.

Many newcomers are wary of help when it is offered directly.  I love hunts, how about a 'Welcome to Second Life" hunt with prizes awarded after new avatars complete certain tasks?. At one location, for example, a newcomer might get a prize after completing a short course on "How to open a box without getting it attached to you" - and the prize could be in the box itself.

I'd also love to see the different newcomers groups come together in some fashion to share information, but that will be after cats become herdable...

 

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1 hour ago, KanryDrago said:

and what is wrong with wiffle sticks?

Ever been hit in the head with one? Owie!

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8 minutes ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Ever been hit in the head with one? Owie!

Can attest to this. I was forced to do Morris dancing at school. 

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58 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Animats' quote pertains to RL as well...
https://www.health.harvard.edu/mental-health/can-relationships-boost-longevity-and-well-being

As a fairly asocial atheist who's seen plenty of compelling research to suggest I'm on the wrong path, it looks like the burden of staying alive is on my shoulders.

Hopefully I can live with that.

I know...

The difference between you and I (I think) is you chose to be less than social, I didn't. I always wanted to be surrounded by loving, caring family and friends. With time alone when needed, of course since I've become an introvert almost hermit.

Family? Friends? It's been so long I don't even know what they are any more.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

Sadly not true, there appears to be absolutely no morris dancing in sl so the ad would have to be "almost anything you want to be"

Morris dancing is fine if you're into other late medieval forms of torture (and I know some who are!).

But *I* want to be a Pearly Queen!

235398197_PearlyQueen-Blank.png.184c7277698766fcbd9319efe21a0b89.png

And I'll go around SL wearing my Pearly Queen outfit, collecting charitable donations for . . . NON-PREMIUM RESIDENTS!!!

I get to look adorable. And all of those poor deserving non-Premium people receive the aid and succor that the 1% (aka Premiums) have worked so hard to deny them.

It's win-win, right?

ETA: I just checked on MP, and someone once did make a Pearly Queen outfit . . . from the movie Moulin Rouge? But it's a system/sculptie outfit, and looks kind of ancient. Where are the INNOVATORS among our mesh creators these days?

Edited by Scylla Rhiadra
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2 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

What percentage of sl users are actually creators that would use these tools.

You've got that backwards. The question you should be asking is "what percentage of SL residents would use content created by these tools?" And the answer is somewhere in the neighborhood of 100%.

2 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

As to the gamey side, yes you have a point about being able to make more game like introductions to SL. However I believe from what I have read here that they used to do that and had a series of tasks to complete. They took it away presumably because it wasnt working.

Let's say someone invents a car with square wheels. Clearly it does not work. Do you assume:

A. The car failed because the design was flawed.

or

B. Nobody likes cars.

LL's attempts at new user orientation activities have always been flawed at best, completely wrongheaded most of the time. The new user experience you're describing illustrated the shortcomings of the SL content creation tool set. Plenty of us told LL that when they introduced it. They didn't listen and they failed to learn from the mistake. Instead of learning that square wheels are a flawed design, they decided that nobody likes cars.

3 hours ago, KanryDrago said:

All I was trying to point out is that with limited resources they need to target the work they do to target the largest number and retain them.

You're absolutely right on this, and I don't believe LL should allocate 100% of their resources to large projects that will take years to complete. I've always felt LL should have multiple teams. Have your A team working on those big, ambitious projects that take years to complete, while your B and C teams knock out many of the smaller features and fixes. LL has to take the long view regarding how they allocate resources, but this also means keeping a forward momentum that is tangible to the userbase. There's a lot of low hanging fruit LL ignores because too often they allocate all of their resources towards the big projects. They could have a small team knocking out a weekly or at least monthly stream of fixes and features and I think the userbase would feel as though much more progress was being made.

2 hours ago, Nalates Urriah said:

While I cannot say definitively that you have influenced Lindens, they often are moving in directions you point. 

I wish I felt the same way. I feel like I bang my head against the Linden brick wall and once every few years it moves an inch forward and half an inch backwards. In the meantime, I continue to have terrible headaches. I think they've made some promising statements in the past couple of years. Animesh is long overdue and I'm already seeing it get used to great effect. There's still a lot LL needs to deliver on, and much, much more that they need to work on but have yet to even acknowledge.

On a very much related note, a year and a half ago Oz told me they were introducing new camera controls and were including my camera settings as a new standard preset....but then it never happened and the last time I asked Oz about it he seemed to have developed amnesia. I has to ask some friends I knew were at the same office hours meeting to make sure I hadn't imagined it. They remember Oz bringing it up, too. I swear there must be something in the water over there. Someone should get the EPA to test LL's pipes and watercoolers.

 

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2 minutes ago, Penny Patton said:

You've got that backwards. The question you should be asking is "what percentage of SL residents would use content created by these tools?" And the answer is somewhere in the neighborhood of 100%.

Let's say someone invents a car with square wheels. Clearly it does not work. Do you assume:

A. The car failed because the design was flawed.

or

B. Nobody likes cars.

 

Tell me you are joking here?

The chances of the Lab creating a tool superior to the third party build tools currently in use such as maya or blendr is approximately 0%

Anything made with inferior tools is likely to be an inferior product

I suspect whatever shoddy tools the Lab would write therefore would be used to make stuff where there are already far better items available on the market built by people using proper tools. So who would buy these items?

In you analogy its would you buy a car built by someone with a full professional machine shop or by someone using a stone for a hammer

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It would be nice if LL had some kind of roadmap like a lot of game developers use for games. 

I mean I know there’s BoM and EEP coming up, but it would be nice if there was somewhere we could go to see what’s going on with projects they’re working on and official word of what they’re kicking around for the future, things to get people excited about.

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Just now, KanryDrago said:

The chances of the Lab creating a tool superior to the third party build tools currently in use such as maya or blendr is approximately 0%

Who said anything about LL making anything like Blender or Maya? You're making some crazy leaps in logic here.

1 minute ago, KanryDrago said:

I suspect whatever shoddy tools the Lab would write therefore would be used to make stuff where there are already far better items available on the market built by people using proper tools. So who would buy these items?

I'm not talking about LL making their own version of Blender in SL, I'm talking about all new features. Stuff that isn't currently possible, or at least isn't possible to do well, in SL with any tools, third party or otherwise.

You're on the completely wrong track here.

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1 minute ago, Penny Patton said:

Who said anything about LL making anything like Blender or Maya? You're making some crazy leaps in logic here.

I'm not talking about LL making their own version of Blender in SL, I'm talking about all new features. Stuff that isn't currently possible, or at least isn't possible to do well, in SL with any tools, third party or otherwise.

You're on the completely wrong track here.

apologies you are correct it was someone else who mentioned the lab creating in world build tools for mesh

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

The chances of the Lab creating a tool superior to the third party build tools currently in use such as maya or blendr is approximately 0%

Anything made with inferior tools is likely to be an inferior product

Although, while we're on the topic, I do happen to believe that LL should invest some development in the in-world building tools. Not to compete with content made in Blender or other 3rd party tools, but to allow people more freedom to easily create simple things. Don't underestimate how much of the simple joy of creating was a factor in SL's early success.

Let me use another SL feature as an example. If you know how to script you can do amazing stuff in SL. But to do even very simple things, like create a chair or a teleporter, SL requires you to learn how to script. If SL had a visual interface for simple scripted features, like adjusting sit targets, apply texture animations, and creating experience based teleporters, more people would be able to easily create such items on their own. Sure, if you relied entirely on the visual scripting interface you'd never be able to achieve quite as much as those who had a strong understanding of actual scripting, but surely you can see how the SL experience would be enriched.

 

 Just imagine if anyone, regardless of their skill level, could easily set up an animesh NPC to walk around their yard, stop to water some flowers for a few minutes, then continue around the house to sit on the front porch for a half an hour or so, then get up to check the mail. Applying the waypoints, the animations, everything via a simple to use interface. Pathfinding that anyone could use, not just people who've spent hundreds of hours eyeballs deep in the LSL wiki.

Edited by Penny Patton
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