Arms and hands - asymmetric tattoos?

[Resi Pfeffer]

Hello,

i wonder, if there are any asymmetric tattoos out there, when its about arms and hands?
It seems to be no problem to have a tattoo on just one side of the legs or chest or having different ones on both sides, but the arms almost always seem to be mirrored.
Why is that?

P.S. I have seen asymmetric tattoos (for the arms), but its really rare.

[Mollymews]

if you are asking about the SL standard avatar shape then the texture template for the upper body only has one arm - outer arm and inner arm surfaces. Which is mirrored to fit both arms

template diagram showing this by Robin Wood

 

ps. Most mesh body templates have been made with two arms to address the issue you have mentioned

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by Mollymews
ps

[Orwar]

   Signature's bodies have a unique UV, allowing each arm to be textured separately. I was pretty miffed when I found out Maitreya didn't. Not sure which brands of female bodies, if any, have different UVs.

[dokitten]

regardless of UVs, i think is just designers choice.. Any UV a bodymight have, is stil up for the designerto make 2 diffrent models / patterns / designs for each arm...
Maybe if they see your post here @Resi Pfeffer some get inspired to do some. It might be a bit of extra work... even on a 2048px textures the standard UV is stil preeety small space to work on, unless you go all vector, then space in px is irrelevant...

 

p.s. only now i realised that what @Mollymews was showing meant mirrored arms *faceslap* and sshe is right and that leaves less room for creators' freedom

you could achieve difrent tattoos on diffrent arms even on bodies that dont support it natively, by applying one tatto on the tatt0o layer ( with the design of 1 arm ) and a diffrent tatoo for the other arm. IF there is not much overlaying, and the tattoos are , or one of them, more <solid aka less fading tints> you MIGHT even get away with very few alpha glitches that way... IF! and MAYBE..

Edited June 3, 2019 by dokitten

[Skell Dagger]

To the best of my knowledge, only Signature (male) and Slink (both male and female) bodies have the ability to wear asymmetrical tattoos. However, the hands on Slink are mirrored (I haven't checked Signature's hands, but I suspect those are the same).

Some creators have made mesh tattoos, as I recall having one prior to getting a mesh body, although I'm not sure how well they would work with a mesh body.

[Orwar]

1 hour ago, Skell Dagger said:

However, the hands on Slink are mirrored (I haven't checked Signature's hands, but I suspect those are the same).

   Off the top of my head, I think that Signature's hands aren't mirrored, but I could be wrong. I had a tattoo for one arm, going up over the shoulder and all the way down towards the wrist, and I think that I had an issue where the seam between hand and arm wasn't properly aligned. And if I had that, the tattoo should have shown up on my left hand, too, which would have been weird. But it might have been something else entirely - I rarely wear any tattoos at all. Too many alpha issues!

[Resi Pfeffer]

11 hours ago, Orwar said:

I think that Signature's hands aren't mirrored, but I could be wrong. I had a tattoo for one arm,

Then its just applying to signature it seems. I saw a few single side tats for men, but not a single one for maitreya or Omega.
Thanks for explaining. I was unaware about the fact, legs are not, and arms are mirrored by design.
Who got that brilliant idea, btw? I bet even the mirror tattoos outnumber the mirrored tattoos in the real world.

@Mollymews
It was meant to be about tattoos in general, but i searched for Maitreya appliers and Omega. 99% of what i find at the marketplace is mirrored.

@dokitten
I found a few tats really looking like the artwork has slowly grown over a persons life. On the right leg, there was a tattooed  gartner, the other side had a chain with a cross attached, around the tummy were some butterflies, the back had some different designs... Like it would be in real life in a lot of cases, reflecting someones life...
But then you look at the arms and the perfect symmetry, and the whole imagination collapses.

@Orwar, @Skell Dagger
I think i´ll stay without tats meanwhile. Not going to turn into a signature male body because of that issue.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Resi Pfeffer
typo

[Mollymews]

3 hours ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

@Mollymews
It was meant to be about tattoos in general. No matter what i find at the marketplace, its mirrored.

i don't wear tattoo myself generally.  I do know tho that the Maitreya does have a separate left and right arm template

i had a quick look on MP and there is a dollarbie left arm tattoo here for Maitreya that shows this capability: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Devil-woman-arm-tattoo/14545927

why more tattoo makers don't make applier sets for left arm, right arm and both arms I am not sure. Or some makers may, but seems is not many who provide demoes so we check them out

i cross this all out as I probably don't know what I am talking about, maitreya wise

turns out the dollarbie I linked to is actually a mesh overlay. Its pretty clever tho how they have done it. But it is not an applier

Edited June 4, 2019 by Mollymews
cross outs

[Conifer Dada]

If Linden Lab is thinking of updating the standard 'system' avatar mesh, then being able to texture each arm (and foot) separately would be a great idea.  This could be done without changing the layout of the templates, by having the option on tattoo layers to 'apply to left arm only' or 'apply to right arm only'.

It would also be good if LL could tweak the system mesh to iron out some of its imperfections and also add a few more sliders so you can adjust things like an avatar's basic stance before an AO is added.  Then fat avatars needn't put their hands into inbuilt 'pockets' in their hips!!

Edited June 4, 2019 by Conifer Dada

[Resi Pfeffer]

1 hour ago, Conifer Dada said:

If Linden Lab is thinking of updating the standard 'system' avatar mesh, then being able to texture each arm (and foot) separately would be a great idea.

Thats the thing. Leg and foot tattos are almost never mirrored. Thats why i didnt understand why arms are almost always mirrored.
It seems not to work the same way.
That pics are a pretty good example... arms are mirrored, but the tummy and the legs are not. What i also noticed is: the upper chest is also mirrored, the back is not in every case.

[Orwar]

   The legs aren't mirrored as the standard UV layout gives you both legs as separate areas.

   Front + back + foot + sole.

[Resi Pfeffer]

32 minutes ago, Orwar said:

The legs aren't mirrored as the standard UV layout gives you both legs as separate areas.

I hope, this Robin Wood is still around... to fix what he messed up 14 years ago. 😩

Am i the only one who thinks mirrored tattoos look stupid not that nice?
I mean, imagine, mesh would be mirrored in some cases. Your hairs would also be your beard.

Edited June 4, 2019 by Resi Pfeffer

[Orwar]

   UV-unwrapping a mesh model of a human, whilst keeping the texture memory within reason, isn't all that easy. If 5 different brands of mesh body creators were to create their unique UV, there'd be a lot less cross-brand compatibility with the textures. But I agree, I'd rather see one map for the arms + hands, one map for the torso + groin and one map with the legs and feet separate. The downside of that would be that there'd be more seams - I'd rather have the limbs unwrapped with one seam going down the inside of the inside of the arm and leg, though it might cause a higher ratio of distortion as the topography gets flattened out.

   But it feels a bit silly, that the entire body is fitted into two 1024 x 1024 textures (minus head, though). 14 years ago that may have been good enough, but by now it feels like we should be able to handle higher fidelity. Maybe if the 2048 x 2048 textures make a comeback, we'll see some improvement on that end. ... ... Of course it'll also mean that we'll have a bunch more texture lag, as people will be adamant that their accessories need several faces with individual high-resolution textures. Still, it wouldn't affect the mirroring unless Maitreya decided to create their own UV maps - and instantly make all current skins, tattoos and apparel appliers useless. Unless they'd have two separate versions of the body, with different UV maps.

[Mollymews]

9 hours ago, Resi Pfeffer said:

I hope, this Robin Wood is still around... to fix what he messed up 14 years ago. 😩

i should have explained a bit more about Robin Wood's template. (Robin is a woman)

Robin's template is a drawing of the UV map of the SL standard avatar shape - an explanation of how textures (skin, tattoo, clothing layers) are rendered onto the SL standard avatar model.  That there is only one arm on the UV map is down to LL

Robin's template drawing, and a prior template drawing by Chip Midnight, opened up creating clothes, tats, skins, makeup. etc, to the wider resident creative pool. I think it was Chip Midnight who created the first commercial (for sale) avatar skin back in the day

[Resi Pfeffer]

17 hours ago, Orwar said:

Still, it wouldn't affect the mirroring unless Maitreya decided to create their own UV maps - and instantly make all current skins, tattoos and apparel appliers useless. Unless they'd have two separate versions of the body, with different UV maps.

Im afraid, no one wants that in exchange for unmirrored tats. 🙄
 

[Conifer Dada]

I'm not so sure having a tattoo on one arm would need a different UV map.  Couldn't an option be included on the system avatar layer stage to 'apply to left arm only' or 'apply to right arm only'  so that although the texture used has one arm, which is mirrored on both sides, the avatar customisation would block its application to the unwanted side. I don't have any tattoos myself, but that would be useful for those who do, and still like having a system avatar.

[Nalates Urriah]

On 6/4/2019 at 1:28 AM, Conifer Dada said:

If Linden Lab is thinking of updating the standard 'system' avatar mesh, then being able to texture each arm (and foot) separately would be a great idea.  This could be done without changing the layout of the templates, by having the option on tattoo layers to 'apply to left arm only' or 'apply to right arm only'.

It would also be good if LL could tweak the system mesh to iron out some of its imperfections and also add a few more sliders so you can adjust things like an avatar's basic stance before an AO is added.  Then fat avatars needn't put their hands into inbuilt 'pockets' in their hips!!

For years people talked about getting the Lab to upgrade the avatar. It is probably never going to happen. The Lab has a thing about legacy compatibility. Changing the avatar would impact so many things in SL... it is just too big a change.

The Lab responded to the pressure by adding the features needed to allow the mesh bodies we use today, BoM is another step along that path of upgrading the avatar.

Any mesh body can have its own unique UV Map and independently textured arms. But, BoM adds some pressure to avoid that. Designers need to stay close to the Classic avatar UV Map to work well with the coming BoM.

However, the mesh body layers allow me to place one tat on the Tattoo Layer and another on the Clothes or Underwear Layer then turn an arm off on each layer to have asymmetric arm tats. I have no idea how that may work or not with BoM.

[TheMissZ]

Re-opening the dialog of this topic now that BOM is live on the grid. As I write this, SLink has created the Redux body that is for BOM use, TMP Legacy has BOM built into their standard HUD, and Maitreya has released a relay. I'm not sure where male mesh bodies are in this change, but for the sake of the discussion, I'm just going to inquire about BOM layers in general.

Previously if you wanted asymmetry on your arms, you would have to apply the tattoo to your body on the tattoo layer and the underwear layer and just use your body's hud to hide one arm on each so that both could be visible. ~ With BOM, people will be using system layer tattoos, and as far as I am aware, there is no way to avoid mirroring happening, so anyone that did hide one via their hud, they have no choice but to accept symmetry when using arm tattoos on System layers.

Is that right? Does anyone have ideas how to work around this to achieve arm asymmetry?

[Rhonda Huntress]

38 minutes ago, TheMissZ said:

With BOM, people will be using system layer tattoos, and as far as I am aware, there is no way to avoid mirroring happening, so anyone that did hide one via their hud, they have no choice but to accept symmetry when using arm tattoos on System layers.

Is that right?

Correct if the tattoo is a system tattoo.

You can still use applier tattoos on an onion layer of the body of those bodies that allowed hiding parts of the layers, like the original Slink bodies.

[Skell Dagger]

6 hours ago, TheMissZ said:

Re-opening the dialog of this topic now that BOM is live on the grid. As I write this, SLink has created the Redux body that is for BOM use, TMP Legacy has BOM built into their standard HUD, and Maitreya has released a relay. I'm not sure where male mesh bodies are in this change, but for the sake of the discussion, I'm just going to inquire about BOM layers in general.

Previously if you wanted asymmetry on your arms, you would have to apply the tattoo to your body on the tattoo layer and the underwear layer and just use your body's hud to hide one arm on each so that both could be visible. ~ With BOM, people will be using system layer tattoos, and as far as I am aware, there is no way to avoid mirroring happening, so anyone that did hide one via their hud, they have no choice but to accept symmetry when using arm tattoos on System layers.

Is that right? Does anyone have ideas how to work around this to achieve arm asymmetry?

If you're using the Slink Redux body then they have an Asymmetry Harness that means you can use applier tattoos on a single arm like you used to be able to on the Slink classic bodies. The below is from the FAQ:

Quote

What is the Asymmetry Harness for?

Previously we could give you asymmetrical options especially for tattoos and alpha zones for asymmetrical mesh clothing, via script and HUD. Bakes on Mesh brings us back to the symmetrical avatar that we had prior to mesh bodies. For boring, technical limitation reasons, we created the asymmetry harness especially so that your asymmetrical tattoo appliers would still work, and so that you could still use alpha zones. You may need to request a chest/legs tattoo layer from your tattoo maker to wear along with the asymmetrical applier to complete your tattoo.

[Alyona Su]

15 hours ago, Skell Dagger said:

If you're using the Slink Redux body then they have an Asymmetry Harness that means you can use applier tattoos on a single arm like you used to be able to on the Slink classic bodies.

The Belleza bodies (all three) have been able to do asymmetric appliers for a few years now. I thought the OP was asking about system layers, which is not possible, am I incorrect on both these?  (And the Belleza bodies haven't been updated to BOM, yet, so we wait and see how they choose to handle that.)

Edited November 7, 2019 by Alyona Su

[Nalates Urriah]

On 11/6/2019 at 8:30 AM, TheMissZ said:

Re-opening the dialog of this topic now that BOM is live on the grid. As I write this, SLink has created the Redux body that is for BOM use, TMP Legacy has BOM built into their standard HUD, and Maitreya has released a relay. I'm not sure where male mesh bodies are in this change, but for the sake of the discussion, I'm just going to inquire about BOM layers in general.

Previously if you wanted asymmetry on your arms, you would have to apply the tattoo to your body on the tattoo layer and the underwear layer and just use your body's hud to hide one arm on each so that both could be visible. ~ With BOM, people will be using system layer tattoos, and as far as I am aware, there is no way to avoid mirroring happening, so anyone that did hide one via their hud, they have no choice but to accept symmetry when using arm tattoos on System layers.

Is that right? Does anyone have ideas how to work around this to achieve arm asymmetry?

Asymmetry is a bit complicated. Slink's work around for BOM is to create an alternative arm. They alpha out an arm and attach an additional mesh arm. So, the arms can be asymmetrical. 

The tat on the single system arm maps to both arms of the classic and BOM bodies. But, Slink's alternate arm(s) can wear a tat on just one arm. 

[SLIM Barrowstone]

soo on the uv map when you put the arms on it will wrap around the arm ?? and also how do you get the tattoo to come up and around the neck ??

[Bree Giffen]

1 hour ago, SLIM Barrowstone said:

soo on the uv map when you put the arms on it will wrap around the arm ?? and also how do you get the tattoo to come up and around the neck ??

It’s very tricky to draw on the uv map to make a tattoo wrap around the arm but it can be done. To make a tattoo come up from the lower neck to the upper neck you have to draw the tattoo on both the torso uv map and the head uv map. There is software out there that lets you draw on an imported 3d shape. 

[SLIM Barrowstone]

ok ty b/c when i did put a brush on the arm it had a gap on it from where i guess i did not make it big enough