Arms and hands - asymmetric tattoos?

[DeepBlueJoy]

On 6/4/2019 at 10:08 AM, Resi Pfeffer said:

I hope, this Robin Wood is still around... to fix what he messed up 14 years ago. 😩

Am i the only one who thinks mirrored tattoos look stupid not that nice?
I mean, imagine, mesh would be mirrored in some cases. Your hairs would also be your beard.

Not actually sure Robin is a guy... or that he/she created the template system, just that he/she made the most commonly distributed ones.  

Anyway, the biggest problem with mirrored tattoos is that if you WRITE words on the tattoo, then you have a tattoo with backwards words unless it's a mirrored word (visual palindrome, like 'mom' in certain fonts).  I was thinking if i made a shirt layer, it could be asymmetrical, but if the template is one armed, i don't see how that is possible.  Seems no matter what layer i use, if i go with BOM, I'm stuck with needing to use something without words... or maybe creating a bracelet that is invisible with words on it?  That would seem like unnecessary roughness, and it takes up an attachment slot.

Yes, "Lindens", this needs to be addressed.  Now i see why so many tattoos are on the body or the legs, even though most i see in RL are on arms (at least, that's what's often visible)

 

[Marianne Little]

From Maitreya website:

Select layer

Layers are now separated from the body so you no longer need to wear a layer that you are not using.
You can wear (add) one, two or all three layers. Any layer can now also receive textures from multiple appliers, applied to different parts of the layer. There are 17 areas of a layer you can apply to, therefore you could in theory wear up to 17 different applier textures on a layer. This new feature also allows for one arm, one hand and one foot tattoos.

https://sl-maitreya.blogspot.com/p/layers-page.html

This is a matter of designers slowness to adapting. Or customer apathy, mirrored arm tattoos is the rule, because they have heard it is so. So they do not bother to ask for one arm tattoos.

Edit: I believe "one foot tattoos" literally mean the foot and not the leg, since Maitreya has always had the feet as one object.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Marianne Little

[Marianne Little]

Asymmetric tattoos are so cool, the only way to get them is to stop buying the mirrored ones.

Send your favorite ink creator a polite notecard and ask for new asymmetric tattoos. If the reply is "Nor can do, SL has just one arm template" then tell him that Maitreya, Belleza and Slink can indeed have asymmetric arms. I will not use mirrored tattoos anymore.

 

 

[DeepBlueJoy]

8 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

Asymmetric tattoos are so cool, the only way to get them is to stop buying the mirrored ones.

Send your favorite ink creator a polite notecard and ask for new asymmetric tattoos. If the reply is "Nor can do, SL has just one arm template" then tell him that Maitreya, Belleza and Slink can indeed have asymmetric arms. I will not use mirrored tattoos anymore.

 

 

I AM my favourite creator. I am not looking to BUY tattoos. I want to make them.  I've created tattoos in BOM/system but they are always mirror images.  I'm trying to figure out HOW to make asymmetric BOM tattoos. 

No one can tell me.  The people I meet who have made them tell me it cannot be done, at least not in BOM.

The Tats I'd like to apply to arms have writing.  I cannot use them because the writing is fine on one side, and reversed (backward mirrored) on the other side.  Currently, I have been unable to find someone who can tell me how to do it with BOM.  

I have not yet attempted applier based tats, but I plan to.  If I can make asymmetric Omega, Slink or Maitreya etc., applier tattoos, that would make me very happy, though that would leave out anyone who has BOM/system only.  Any assistance would be VERY helpful.

I will be checking with the makers of the major bodies for their templates and getting to work figuring out how to make the asymmetric tattoos in the mean time.  

The problem is that BOM is the big dog right now and everyone's trying to use their BOM based bodies... so they want BOM/System  tattoos also.  Some people even have (mesh) bodies that have no applier layer anymore.  I guess they're out of luck unless LINDEN (or whatever they're calling themselves now) are willing to create a more flexible template system.

[Lillith Hapmouche]

I'm also reading the Maitreya blog post as "possible via appliers and tattoo layer shell". But nothing in terms of BOM layers.

Besides that, badmouthing Robin for providing her templates to the public like that was probably one of the most rude insults I've ever come across at these boards. Talk about doing good...

[Madelaine McMasters]

5 minutes ago, Lillith Hapmouche said:

Badmouthing Robin for providing her templates to the public like that was probably one of the most rude insults I've ever come across at these boards. Talk about doing good...

Was it rudeness or a display of significant ignorance?

Hanlon's Razor, Lillith.

Not a good look on Resi either way, but there is a difference.

ETA: Given the need to conserve compute/memory resources in the early days of SL, reusing a single arm texture for both arms was probably a reasonable compromise. The alternative might have been two distinct arms with such low texture resolution that nobody would like the result.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Madelaine McMasters

[Gabriele Graves]

Having different arm/leg tats can be done in BoM, technically.  Everything that is needed is supported but it needs skin makers to create universal skin layers as part of what they provide.  Without that support, having different arm/leg tats with BoM is essentially dead for most users.

There was a previous thread discussing that here: 

 

[Gabriele Graves]

I forgot to mention that in addition to the above, the mesh body creators also need to provide a way to switch the left arm/leg to use the new channels for separate tats mode.

[Marianne Little]

7 hours ago, Lillith Hapmouche said:

I'm also reading the Maitreya blog post as "possible via appliers and tattoo layer shell". But nothing in terms of BOM layers.

 

Bom skin can take both appliers on a shell, and also Bom system layer tattoos. As long as the Bom and applier tattoos does not go over each other, nothing stops me from using Bom tattoos. My alt is wearing Bom skin. I added the Polynesian neck tattoo, "Love" on the left breast, and garter tattoo, all as Bom.

8 hours ago, DeepBlueJoy said:

I AM my favourite creator. I am not looking to BUY tattoos. I want to make them.  I've created tattoos in BOM/system but they are always mirror images.  I'm trying to figure out HOW to make asymmetric BOM tattoos. 

No one can tell me.  The people I meet who have made them tell me it cannot be done, at least not in BOM.

The Tats I'd like to apply to arms have writing.  I cannot use them because the writing is fine on one side, and reversed (backward mirrored) on the other side.  Currently, I have been unable to find someone who can tell me how to do it with BOM.  

I have not yet attempted applier based tats, but I plan to.  If I can make asymmetric Omega, Slink or Maitreya etc., applier tattoos, that would make me very happy, though that would leave out anyone who has BOM/system only.  Any assistance would be VERY helpful.

I will be checking with the makers of the major bodies for their templates and getting to work figuring out how to make the asymmetric tattoos in the mean time.  

The problem is that BOM is the big dog right now and everyone's trying to use their BOM based bodies... so they want BOM/System  tattoos also.  Some people even have (mesh) bodies that have no applier layer anymore.  I guess they're out of luck unless LINDEN (or whatever they're calling themselves now) are willing to create a more flexible template system.

Slink has the asymmetric harness over their Redux body, and Maitreya can add layers. So those who have Bom only must be some freebie bodies. I remember seeing them, because Ryan Schultz is blogging all freebies. The TMP/Legacy free body does not have any option, as far as I know, but the full priced have.

I would love to have tattoos from the same designer, because of the style/ink strength.

For those who can only use Bom, they are out of luck. But all others can use asymmetric ones.

Maybe sell your tattoos Bom without arms plus appliers for the arms?

You can price them higher than only Bom tattoos, since it is more work.

I hope the creator packs from the sellers has some information about how to make tattoos.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Marianne Little
added image

[DeepBlueJoy]

My point is that BOM becomes of less value if it cannot do all that appliers can do.  BOM has been promoted for its ease of use -- but if there's no way to create some things for BOM, then it becomes less flexible than appliers.  A lot of people who are creating may not bother.  It is actually quite straightforward to create stuff for BOM layers, so that's unfortunate. 

Instead of BOM becoming a universal layer that everyone can use (including some of my fantasy friends who will probably never go mesh), it becomes just one more 'applier' that a creator must make.  So, instead of making omega, slink, catwa, maitreya etc., you now ADD BOM to the mix.  I think some of us were hoping that it would NOT be like making mesh clothing... where you have to make clothing in sizes for all the different bodies that are out there... (or just make stuff for one or two and leave everyone out of the mix.)

Until the BOM template gets an upgrade from the old 'one arm' system template, BOM cannot become the 'universal applier' it's being promoted as, though it remains nice to wear some of that really lovely intricately made fantasy clothing that was never created in 'applier' form.

[Gabriele Graves]

There are a few things that BoM cannot do which you can achieve with appliers and vice-versa..  I don't see BoM as a complete replacement though, I see it as another tool in a toolbox.  You draw on the strengths and minimize the weakness of each to achieve the best effect.  In fact BoM and appliers can compliment each other really well and now we have more options to use.  BoM may never be a 100% replacement for appliers.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Gabriele Graves
Added missing sentence.

[Marianne Little]

5 hours ago, DeepBlueJoy said:

My point is that BOM becomes of less value if it cannot do all that appliers can do.  BOM has been promoted for its ease of use -- but if there's no way to create some things for BOM, then it becomes less flexible than appliers.  A lot of people who are creating may not bother.  It is actually quite straightforward to create stuff for BOM layers, so that's unfortunate. 

Instead of BOM becoming a universal layer that everyone can use (including some of my fantasy friends who will probably never go mesh), it becomes just one more 'applier' that a creator must make.  So, instead of making omega, slink, catwa, maitreya etc., you now ADD BOM to the mix.  I think some of us were hoping that it would NOT be like making mesh clothing... where you have to make clothing in sizes for all the different bodies that are out there... (or just make stuff for one or two and leave everyone out of the mix.)

Until the BOM template gets an upgrade from the old 'one arm' system template, BOM cannot become the 'universal applier' it's being promoted as, though it remains nice to wear some of that really lovely intricately made fantasy clothing that was never created in 'applier' form.

BoM is the old template. LL have not said it will do other things than the standard one - arm template. BoM has never been advertised as a new template with 2 arms.

I have heard the pleas for a new template with 2 arms since I joined SL. The way the arms are mirrored have annoyed me so much.

LL has said no, no, no. It will break existing content. It is not room on the template to add in a new arm. It can not be an upgrade, it would be something different, and it can not work together with other content.

I am not against a new template, even if it means a lot of what I have paid for will be unusable. People could use the things they already have, but it would be like shoes. No one makes shoes for system feet now. If it was a new template, no one would make things with the old one.

Let us imagine a new template is made. People who can not afford to buy new things, or people who can not part with their old because it is "them", can use previous content, but can not shop newly made things.

 

[MaxMare]

For tattoos; Photoshop CS extended and CC have incorporated 3d option, download a SL default avatar  (SL wiki) and paint directly on it...there are some tutorials on youtube...Regarding asymmetry, I believe Belleza and Slink came up with a way of doing it, I don`t know about others, would have to look into it, but if you are in a hurry, checking official web site is always a good idea...

All mesh bodies and heads had to implement BoM and they have done it in their own way, some more - some less successfully, you can`t blame BoM system cause someone did not think it through and incorporate same functionality as they`ve done for appliers. I don`t see why you couldn`t do asymmetry with BoM, it just comes down to mesh bodies adding such a feature...The only real limitation of BoM are materials, BoM is basically a diffuse texture that gets baked on the avatar and it uses corresponding channel,  specular and normal need to be added through their own channels which is why we still need appliers. Everything else is same as appliers, with a few up sides (no alpha issues, multitude of layers, no need for onion avatars aka less geometry-less complexity-less lag)..

SL UV maps are and have been same from the start, 99,9% mesh bodies/heads are compatible and for tattoos, same texture can be used across brands  (Hands and feet have different mapping but it only matters if you are a skin creator)...To change UVs now would cause a nightmare for majority of creators and make so much content unusable,  I hope that never happens! It would mean having to adapt every skin, make up, clothing applier, mesh body, mesh head  on the market so that is just not an option...Perhaps SL could add another diffuse channel that would allow us to apply 2 different textures and alpha overlapping part (just thinking out loud)?

The reason why no one makes shoes in standard sizes is cause creators  prioritize sizes that sell.

[SLIM Barrowstone]

i agree they need to make it to where you dont have to use a 3d model b/c not everyone system can run thos i would like to make tattoos as well my only problem is making it to run across the chest into the shoulder or the back into the shoulder

[Wulfie Reanimator]

12 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

LL has said no, no, no. It will break existing content. It is not room on the template to add in a new arm. It can not be an upgrade, it would be something different, and it can not work together with other content.

????

BOM can have asymmetrical textures.

Literally: "The Bakes on Mesh project added five new bake channels as well: LEFT_ARM_BAKED, LEFT_LEG_BAKED, AUX1_BAKED, AUX2_BAKED, AUX3_BAKED."

The UV cannot be changed without breaking literally every upper-torso texture created in the history of SL. But the left arm/leg can be overridden by another texture. To add another arm into the UV would also reduce the resolution/quality of textures on the arms, because you would need to make the existing arm smaller to make room for another. It's all downsides.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[DeepBlueJoy]

16 hours ago, Marianne Little said:

BoM is the old template. LL have not said it will do other things than the standard one - arm template. BoM has never been advertised as a new template with 2 arms.

I have heard the pleas for a new template with 2 arms since I joined SL. The way the arms are mirrored have annoyed me so much.

LL has said no, no, no. It will break existing content. It is not room on the template to add in a new arm. It can not be an upgrade, it would be something different, and it can not work together with other content.

I am not against a new template, even if it means a lot of what I have paid for will be unusable. People could use the things they already have, but it would be like shoes. No one makes shoes for system feet now. If it was a new template, no one would make things with the old one.

Let us imagine a new template is made. People who can not afford to buy new things, or people who can not part with their old because it is "them", can use previous content, but can not shop newly made things.

 

But people gave up bling shoes that were shaped like space ships drawn by 5 year olds...  and no one is sad about this.  I actually gave up my system feet and hands well over a year before i gave up on my system body, which I missed ever after and still wore occasionally so i could wear old stuff i loved... not because i was cheap but because it was gorgeous and the sellers are dead or have left SL a long time ago. Until BOM, I still wore my system body periodically, though i kept my mesh head, hands and feet on.

I am not suggesting it would be easy, but going to BOM is a huge hassle for body and clothing makers already.  And you get less from it than you really could.  Two armed options are already out there... the body creators pretty much all use them right? I can't think of too many one arm mesh body applier templates, though I haven't used appliers on all bodies.

Whatever happens, we will all continue to adapt.  SL is a total hodgepodge of creation.  I cannot believe that will ever change, one arm or two. I still vote for two arms...  and now we have new management, who knows what good (and evil) they'll send down the pike...

[DeepBlueJoy]

4 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

????

BOM can have asymmetrical textures.

Literally: "The Bakes on Mesh project added five new bake channels as well: LEFT_ARM_BAKED, LEFT_LEG_BAKED, AUX1_BAKED, AUX2_BAKED, AUX3_BAKED."

The UV cannot be changed without breaking literally every upper-torso texture created in the history of SL. But the left arm/leg can be overridden by another texture. To add another arm into the UV would also reduce the resolution/quality of textures on the arms, because you would need to make the existing arm smaller to make room for another. It's all downsides.

well, just how do i access the new baked channels to create stuff for my asymmetrical clothing and tattoos?  please let me know, b/c I have not been able to find anyone who could help me find out how to create asymmetrical arm tats.

[Wulfie Reanimator]

4 hours ago, DeepBlueJoy said:

well, just how do i access the new baked channels to create stuff for my asymmetrical clothing and tattoos?  please let me know, b/c I have not been able to find anyone who could help me find out how to create asymmetrical arm tats.

From your inventory: Create, New Clothes, Universal

[Lillith Hapmouche]

Come on, it can't be that simple... can it?

[Blush Bravin]

The problem with the universal is that when worn it makes the skin below it invisible. So if you just add a universal for the arm tattoo then the actual arm itself disappears and only the tattoo is visible. To fix that you need a universal skin layer for the arm, then you layer the tattoo universal over the skin universal. Voila you have a tat on only one arm. The problem is getting skinners to add skins on the universal to their skin packages.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Blush Bravin

[Wulfie Reanimator]

1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

The problem with the universal is that when worn it makes the skin below it invisible. So if you just add a universal for the arm tattoo then the actual arm itself disappears and only the tattoo is visible. To fix that you need a universal skin layer for the arm, then you layer the tattoo universal over the skin universal. Voila you have a tat on only one arm. The problem is getting skinners to add skins on the universal to their skin packages.

That shouldn't be true. Universal tattoo gets layered over the base skin texture, it doesn't turn the regular skin transparent. I use transparent universal tattoos over the base skin, unless this happens only with the left arm/leg.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Blush Bravin]

5 minutes ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

That's shouldn't be true. Universal tattoo gets layered over the base skin texture, it doesn't turn the regular skin transparent. I use transparent universal tattoos over the base skin, unless this happens only with the left arm/leg.

Hope this is allowable ... I'm posting a pic of the section of the post that explains the issue from Knowledge Base 

[Wulfie Reanimator]

44 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Hope this is allowable ... I'm posting a pic of the section of the post that explains the issue from Knowledge Base 

Yeah, like I guessed, and the explanation just above that section also goes into more detail:

Quote

The new bake channels are handled a bit differently from the original six. With the original channels like upper body, there are several types of wearables that can affect the contents, and there is always a base layer of skin at the bottom of the texture stack. This means that unless you are using an alpha wearable, your bakes will always be opaque. For the new channels, the only textures are those supplied by any universal wearables you have on, so the resulting bakes can potentially be transparent. Note that this is currently the only way to make the new channels transparent, since there is no "Universal Alpha" wearable (we may add such a wearable in the future).

If you want a transparent bake in one of the new channels to be used to make your mesh partially transparent, you will need to set the alpha mode for that face to "Alpha Blending".

So yeah, you'd need a skin using the Universal wearable for asymmetrical tattoos. Thankfully it's not a big complication.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Marianne Little]

8 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

Yeah, like I guessed, and the explanation just above that section also goes into more detail:

So yeah, you'd need a skin using the Universal wearable for asymmetrical tattoos. Thankfully it's not a big complication.

Okay, so it is not the tattoo creators that control this, it is the skin creators? And why would skin creators make skins that use this Universal wearable, when they gain nothing from it? Unless they sell tattoos themselves. I believe it will be hard to find any skin creator that cares. The skins who have pretty faces and sexy bodies sell anyway. And those skins I don't like... I don't buy them for a tattoo.

[Lillith Hapmouche]

So basically, a skin creator could slap the already uploaded and existing skin textures onto such a universal wearable... which I haven't encountered at all as of now, to my knowledge... then sell said univeral wearable for some extra L$$$ and people could start wearing BOM asymmetrical tattoos?