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1 hour ago, Alyona Su said:

Let us then presume you've never used one at length.

You are right that i have not used and Imac or a Macbook at length but judging by what i see in here and inworld they are very cumbersome when it comes to using them for SL.  The only things i have used at great length are Iphones and at some point switched to Android and found out Android is just plain better. It seems that you pay a lot more for a product that is great when you use it in its own Apple environment interacting with applications specifically tailored for an Apple product but as soon as you want to use software that is commonly available and will run on a Windows machine you have to jump through hoops to get it to work.

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48 minutes ago, cheesecurd said:

Same reason people buy fancy clothes brands. It's a nice branding kinda thing to the people who like them and the apple ecosystem.

People don't buy Macs for any reason other than "but it's a Mac". And they'll visciously try and deny this but there's just no competition in any other aspect besides brand loyalty.

There are better computers, better peripherals, and better operating systems. 

Im not gonna go seek out people to crap on them for using a Mac but when I see people recommending them as if that's a better option than anything else on the market, its clear they have no idea what they're talking about. It's a fashion accessory, if you want actual performance and value for your money then a Mac should be the last choice on the list.

Wow.

Not really. It's about the experience one receives. You can drive a Ford Escort or you can drive a Cadillac. Sure, for some it's the name Cadillac for others it's about the luxury of the car. In this case, they may go with a Lexus, or Infinity, Or Mercedes or whatever; there are many to choose from. When it comes to computing experience, options are extremely limited. You have the experience of MS Windows or macOS on the software side and it's similar on the hardware side (Unix/Linux notwithstanding).

You can shop on price or you can shop on quality, nothing wrong with either method, but you do get what you pay for. It's about priorities, not brand-names. For some it may be, for most it's not.

A good and proper way to look at it: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/tech-tips-and-tricks/pc-vs-mac-the-big-debate.html

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5 minutes ago, Jules Catlyn said:

switched to Android and found out Android is just plain better.

Let me clarify this for you: "...Android is just plain better for me." Fair?

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1 hour ago, cheesecurd said:

Same reason people buy fancy clothes brands. It's a nice branding kinda thing to the people who like them and the apple ecosystem.

People don't buy Macs for any reason other than "but it's a Mac". And they'll visciously try and deny this but there's just no competition in any other aspect besides brand loyalty.

There are better computers, better peripherals, and better operating systems. 

Im not gonna go seek out people to crap on them for using a Mac but when I see people recommending them as if that's a better option than anything else on the market, its clear they have no idea what they're talking about. It's a fashion accessory, if you want actual performance and value for your money then a Mac should be the last choice on the list.

 

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1 hour ago, cheesecurd said:

Same reason people buy fancy clothes brands. It's a nice branding kinda thing to the people who like them and the apple ecosystem.

People don't buy Macs for any reason other than "but it's a Mac". And they'll visciously try and deny this but there's just no competition in any other aspect besides brand loyalty.

There are better computers, better peripherals, and better operating systems. 

Im not gonna go seek out people to crap on them for using a Mac but when I see people recommending them as if that's a better option than anything else on the market, its clear they have no idea what they're talking about. It's a fashion accessory, if you want actual performance and value for your money then a Mac should be the last choice on the list.

Show me an example of a Mac owner here who's viciously denied... well anything?

I highlighted in red a magnificently quick and efficient self contradiction. You do know how to make an impression!

I've been using Macs since I "borrowed" my Father's in 1984. I spent the bulk of my professional career running engineering software on Windows, often custom building the hardware for my specific needs. I still run Windows via VMWare on my Macs. Each environment has proved useful, but one is consistently more pleasing, even when I'm not using it.

My personal preferences are just that. I very rarely make computer recommendations to anyone else. I do not purchase tools of any kind simply for the performance they can achieve. I purchase them for the performance I can achieve while using them. Performance is enjoying what I do while bringing delight to those I do it for. By that metric, Apple products have been my preferred computing tools for more than three decades.

I've a neighbor with a new Porsche Roadster, another with a new Corvette. I have an old Miata. We've all swapped seats, just to confirm that we haven't accidentally bought the wrong car. So far we are all happy with our choices and happy for each other. It's been fun learning about our differences in taste, though the two boys still think I'm nuts for driving all winter with the top down.

To each their own. It's all good.

 

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Im not saying macs are inherently bad, its the spreading of misinformation that they are somehow a better or superior product. And this is not a debate of OSX vs Windows, at all. This is about the hardware, the OS doesnt matter anymore, you can run OSX on pretty much any modern PC and you can run Windows on pretty much any modern Mac.

If you like them then you like them and thats your choice. But dont go around telling other people that theyre some kind of better product, because they arent. Macs an alternative, just as building your is an alternative, hackintosh is an alternative, or buying an off the shelf system is an alternative.

But they are most certainly not a better product. In exchange for a higher pricetag, and non consumer friendly build design, you get adequate for the consumer hardware specs, a really nice display and the apple ecosystem. Aesthetics aside, but if you like the style then thats a factor as well.

All that adds up in a comparison to other equally specced machines and you see where that pricetag difference lies. Drop back to 2011 with the 2011 MBP vs a Lenovo Thinkpad T420, (i bring these up because theyre just the easiest models to cross reference with lots of detail on each) at identical specs you see a nearly 1000$ price tag difference when they were new. Thats a bit excessive for an aesthetic difference and OSX. Now theres a pretty big difference in what these machines are at face value though, but in the end they both target the same business and individual markets. You paid 1000$ more for less external i/o, less user serviceability overall, less full on expansion options (expresscard or docks in general) and in exchange got OSX and a brushed aluminum body with an island chiclet keyboard.

If you are ok with that kind of expense then theres no issue, if you are ok with spending a lot more for overall a lot less but getting the user experience you prefer then who cares. But it is not a superior product because it has a higher price tag, it is a very much so inferior product.

Not even gonna get started on mac build quality, i feel like there hasnt been a single apple computer made in the past 15 years that wasnt a thermal housefire waiting to happen. i.e the macbook airs that thermal throttle out of the box or the older models that tended to experience bga solder failure because the dedicated gpu options reached over 110c on load. Which just isnt acceptable, its a flawed product.

Youre looking at a mac vs a pc and seeing an equally specced PC as an inferior product, which it just isnt.

The comparison i made with the 9600k imac, you lose the aio form factor and in exchange get the ability to upgrade or exchange any component on the PC.

- If your GPU dies on the imac you need an entirely new mainboard, because its a mobile rx 580 soldered to the board, its not even an MXM card. You cant upgrade it, you cant replace it yourself, once you buy it youre stuck with it unless you get a whole new machine.

- You limit your thermal potential on the processor because the only cooler that will work is the cooler it comes with, the only airflow configuration is whatever it was designed for and if the fan dies you need to buy an identical fan for it.

- The ram is SO-DIMMs, its slow for DDR4 in 2019, you cannot upgrade the speed because the bios doesnt support XMP, itll always be 2666mhz. That matters these days too, ram speed is really starting to affect things now that were into 4ghz+ memory.

- The only drive options are what it comes with, you can replace it with a larger drive but unless your motherboard has a second NVME slot option, you only get the one drive.

- You only get stock expansion options, no dedicated sound, no capture cards, no multi gpu, no drive controllers, no usb-c expansions, no pcie ssds. A lot of people dont do that kind of stuff anyway, but some people want better than stock, sound cards are making a comeback for this reason.

- If the screen breaks you need a whole new screen assembly, only for that model and only really from apple. Getting it repaired requires someone who can buy parts from apple, if they even bother, like the imac pro that nobody can get repaired because apple doesnt make replacement parts.

This comparison of a:

5 hours ago, Alyona Su said:

You can drive a Ford Escort or you can drive a Cadillac

Looking at a PC as a ford escort vs a mac cadillac is more like "literally any car on the market" vs a tesla. Proprietary, limiting, in its own special world of DRM and manufacturer restrictions.

Note that all of you came to instantly defend the macs when i called you out. I dont care about what you use personally or why you use it, but do not for even a second consider a mac a superior option because it never has been, and it never will be. Apple is the big waving flag of anti consumer practices.

The technologically literate look down on macs not because "its a mac" but because the people who use them spout this endless stream of lies about them and berate other options.

 

Im currently posting this from a Thinkpaz Z61t from 2006. It runs linux, its still to this day in flawless physical condition, i can hotswap batteries as needed because i have an ultrabay battery, or i can take that ultrabay battery out and swap it for a disc drive or a 2.5" sata bay with an SSD with Windows 7 Enterprise on it, its plugged into a dock that allows for an external gpu, in this case a GT 420 for the sake of an extra display, and spec wise it is more than adequate for browsing the internet and watching 720p youtube videos. They keys have not worn away or gotten shiny, the screen has not faded, the chassis is free of scratches, dents or chips.

Whats a macbook from 2006 doing right now? The white ones are brominating like a PC from the 90s and turning yellow, the black ones rubberized coating is getting sticky, the pros are missing most of the print on the keys by this point. They topped out at OSX lion from 2012 and if you want to run linux you need a custom bootloader because apples bootloader is locked to OSX only.

And again, its the same thing in 2019 as it was in 2006. Inferior product, higher price tag.

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10 hours ago, cheesecurd said:

Looking at a PC as a ford escort vs a mac cadillac is more like "literally any car on the market" vs a tesla

/me laughs! Okay, then we'll call macOS and Apple hardware the Tesla of personal computers. Your words.

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On 8/24/2019 at 6:15 PM, Jules Catlyn said:

I don't understand the fascination with Apple products.

The BSD Unix-based Mac OS is still pretty awesome. I miss the Exposé-likes feature and the speed of searching things (Spotlight) and speedy backup (Time Machine) the most after my switch to PC/Windows 10. And I miss the Unix/Linux-like toys and pre-installed programming languages on the Bash shell. But I switched and I don't want to go back because SL runs so much faster for me now.

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11 hours ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

And I miss the Unix/Linux-like toys and pre-installed programming languages on the Bash shell. But I switched and I don't want to go back because SL runs so much faster for me now.

As as aside, On Windows 10 you can install the Linux subsystem to scratch that nix console itch (even run gui stuff if you're up for an adventure), also the built in file backup is at least superficially comparable to time machine.

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15 hours ago, Arduenn Schwartzman said:

The BSD Unix-based Mac OS is still pretty awesome. I miss the Exposé-likes feature and the speed of searching things (Spotlight) and speedy backup (Time Machine) the most after my switch to PC/Windows 10. And I miss the Unix/Linux-like toys and pre-installed programming languages on the Bash shell. But I switched and I don't want to go back because SL runs so much faster for me now.

I'm still tinkering on a perfect setup to run SL on a gaming PC and stream it to my Mac. I miss exactly those things the most on PC too.

4 hours ago, CoffeeDujour said:

As as aside, On Windows 10 you can install the Linux subsystem to scratch that nix console itch (even run gui stuff if you're up for an adventure), also the built in file backup is at least superficially comparable to time machine.

I run the Ubuntu sub-system on my Win PC and used to use it all the time when on PC, but these days I'm mostly just use Git Bash when on Win.

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I don't care much about those Mac vs Windows debates. I just wanted to say that I run Windows 10 1903 on my MacbookPro (late 2015) (i7, 16G of Ram and Radeon Pro 460 with 4GB or RAM). Using dual-boot on the Macbook is a piece of cake and yes, SL viewer runs much faster with this configuration. The only thing is that in theory you need a Windows 10 licence to do it... (and make sure you have a decent graphic card because that's what is needed in SL). 😉

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I don't like these Mac vs. Win PC debates either. 🙁

Sure, bootcamp is always an option, but then you miss out the main reason why you got a Mac in the first place, and that's Mac OS.

Maybe there will be a nice, native Mac client for SL sometime? Sure, you are all gonna say it's unlikely blah, blah, but is it really?

You can run iOS apps on Catalina, and I can see only benefits if SL ran on iOS, so... who knows.

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21 hours ago, Wendy Starfall said:

I don't like these Mac vs. Win PC debates either. 🙁

Sure, bootcamp is always an option, but then you miss out the main reason why you got a Mac in the first place, and that's Mac OS.

Maybe there will be a nice, native Mac client for SL sometime? Sure, you are all gonna say it's unlikely blah, blah, but is it really?

You can run iOS apps on Catalina, and I can see only benefits if SL ran on iOS, so... who knows.

Linden Lab have announced an official SL text-client in the works for iOS. I mention this because that is also a "gateway" to a macOS-native client, perhaps? A long way off, sure, though still a plausible thought. Just thinking aloud.

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Sadly Apple decided to get away from OpenGL in favor of its own Metal graphic engine. Not sure what this means for developers like Linden Lab but so far they rely on an obsolete rendering engine that will probably vanish from MacOS soon...

Also don't get me wrong... I use BootCamp mostly for SL. For my daily usage it's 100%  MacOS 🍎

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12 hours ago, Oups Waco said:

Sadly Apple decided to get away from OpenGL in favor of its own Metal graphic engine. Not sure what this means for developers like Linden Lab but so far they rely on an obsolete rendering engine that will probably vanish from MacOS soon...

Also don't get me wrong... I use BootCamp mostly for SL. For my daily usage it's 100%  MacOS 🍎

Not sadly, but cheers. Apple always has had a history of cutting away the cruft, OpenGL is ancient crusty technology. The world doesn't't revolve around SL. In the real world I am seeing 4X performance improvements on similar-spec'd hardware of the same applications when compared side-by-side on macOS and Windows 10. Of course, if all one does is type letters to grandma then, well, once can only type so fast and there you go.

I'm sure Linden Lab will find a way to continue supporting macOX, there are just too many macOS users in SL for them not to try.

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