Freedom to, freedom from and the future of mainland (shared experience)

[Kat Ravenhurst]

This is going to be a long one, so bear with me, heavy doses of "rights conflict " balancing, but the goal I'd like to keep in mind is the best experience for *everyone*

I really do think SL is perhaps on the brink of a mini Renaissance brought about by a spate for forward thinking policy changes from mainland bonuses to LI to the new Linden Homes, and I'm very happy to see this, but one thing about the interview Patch gave  the Bellisserian

caught my attention as worthy of talking about here and that's the idea of Linden Homes as starter homes that some people will graduate from when  they desire more "freedom", at which point they will go to mainland rental or purchase. And I'm not sure that's how things will play out, on the whole (although maybe it is, in which case: rock on, LL)

 The rub here is that "freedom from" is as important as "freedom to".

Now before this already gets needlessly contentious, let me begin by saying that I do support the idea of mainland being the place of maximum freedom in builds. There absolutely will always be a market for that and it allows those who place "personal expression"  above all else a place to be themselves within the broad parameters of the TOS.

THIS IS UN DISPUTEDLY A GOOD THING.

The problem is going to be that I foresee a day, and not far off when, those who can live happily on a diet of 350 LI and within a strict covenant stay largely on the Linden Homes continents. Those who need more LI but like themed living will own or rent on estates.

And mainland will be for the anarchists.... except even anarchists don't necessarily want to be surrounded by full bright whatchits, yellow tape, and spinning red *for sale signs*.

Those things won't attract a lot of new buyers, especially among people who were wooed into SL by generous premium benefits and gorgeous home plots.

"But, Kaos", you may say: "that's what de render options and sky palaces are for".

Yes, that works for some. But it leads to a lack of a sense of community... and the newfound sense of community in Bellisseria, for example, is exactly what is driving the nascent Renaissance.

So I see this as a problem that may only escalate on mainland in future.

What if we could find some way that wasn't client side, to address this?

I know parcel owner "derender things outside my parcel for visitors- and make that opt in" on the server side  is just not doable.

I know that Windlight settings can only obscure so much of what the neighbor's cats drag in. Even w/ EEP (which is still  quite a topic)

I know that throwing up parcel walls is just ugly, and again: isolating AF.

But, what can we do to make mainland a place people will want to visit/ own?

I'm no scripter, but is there a way to project a parcel Windlight sky on a tall screen that is phantom and invisible from the outward facing side, so people can effectively have just sky & water as a view for their visitors, but the neighbors aren't inconvenienced?

Help me find a win/win here for all in Second Life.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Kitten Kaos

[Chic Aeon]

Since the long term LL plan is to move the income stream from land tier to subscriber based, it seems logical that somewhere down the line (after the Linden Homes are on their way to catching up with demand) that there will be another mainland tier drop  -- or additional free tier per account which will let folks have MORE space for LESS money.  If you have a quarter of a sim say, you have a pretty good chance of mitigating "clutter" from neighbors -- if needed.   Big trees, landforms and the like work very well on LARGER parcels. 

 

When there was First Land and premium members had 512 started parcels (not free but 1 linden per meter so VERY CHEAP for that time) you were RIGHT up next to your neighbors in ALL directions.  I went with two RL friends and we got three contingent lots and I made a little complex. Later the complex grew as neighbors sold off their land in that crowded area and moved on or up or whatever :D.

 

The more land you have the more privacy you can have without walls and without moving up to the sky. Of course the sky has the added plus of higher framerates so there is that too.  So dropping land tier (and more free tier) is the only answer that I see for mitigating abandoned mainland. It certainly worked for awhile before. I am guessing (and it has been mentioned officially in the past) that it may happen again.  I wouldn't say "SOON" though. 

[Qie Niangao]

2 hours ago, Kitten Kaos said:

I know parcel owner "derender things outside my parcel for visitors- and make that opt in" on the server side  is just not doable.

Do we really know this, though? I know long-departed Lindens have opined that this would diminish immersive continuity when traversing parcel boundaries -- which of course it would, although only marginally more so than parcel Windlight a la EEP. Moreover, I'd claim that other measures taken by landowners to hide adjacent parcels are already much more damaging of immersion (e.g., megaprim backdrop screens).

Have we been told that this is a technical challenge? The broad brush of such a feature seems very consistent with how parcel EEP works (caveat the landowner's UI for specifying what specifically should be derendered for visitors, which might be similar to TPV tools for single-viewer derendering).

This might be more a business issue than a technical or aesthetic challenge. If a lowly 1024 could define a whole surrounding environment, it could hurt the market for Homesteads or even full-primmed Estate regions.

Lest I ramble even deeper into TLDR, just a couple other observations in passing:

1. As you rightly observe, community is key, and there are some modest scale, informal Mainland communities, and those locations tend to be more palatable -- especially for others who share the local spirit or theme. Bay City is maybe the largest such community.
2. A very major contributor to Bellisseria's sense of community is the prohibition on whitelist banlines and the rational restrictions on security scripts, especially on the houseboat regions where watercraft can operate without peril. We can't realistically expect these constraints on Mainland, not even the best waterfront regions; even Blake Sea estates hesitate to force tenants to curb their orbs.

[Choji Kiko]

3 hours ago, Kitten Kaos said:

 

Yes, that works for some. But it leads to a lack of a sense of community... and the newfound sense of community in Bellisseria, for example, is exactly what is driving the nascent Renaissance.

 

"A sense of community" is a phrase that appears so often I'm not even sure it has any meaning anymore.  

If an unobstructed sky/water view untroubled by anything other than sky and water is desirable, then "sense of community" plays no part in it. Why try to solve that contradiction? 

If sense of community, then, plays no part in it, then de-render options give a person all the unobstructed view she can hope for.  Whether on the new continent or on the mainland.  It really is solved already. 

"De-render" comes in two flavours: permanent and temporary. One can really have it all, even on the mainland.

A "sense of community" (however you choose to define it) has nothing whatsoever to do with my or my circle's choice of home. We get that sense from public outings, not backyard relax-time.  Our homes have fairly apocalyptic de-rendering all around us which, ironically, makes living among others very peaceful.  

[Kat Ravenhurst]

@Annwren   I think you've missed my main point.  If you are trying to get visitors to come to your mainland plot and your parcel has clutter around it, de rendering for yourself does nothing to address any of this: your visitors take a look around, don't like what they see and may leave, never to return.  Hence: no community.

For myself, I'm tired of de rendering new yellow tape  every time a parcel near me flips to a new person trying to sell it. At this point, I (and others I've talked to) use our mainland mostly as an overly large walk in closet & scoot back to Bellisseria   asap 😛

Edited May 29, 2019 by Kitten Kaos

[Devin Heartsong]

1 hour ago, Annwren said:

... "De-render" comes in two flavours: permanent and temporary. One can really have it all, even on the mainland...

If true, this would be somewhat viable, at least for oneself. But this is true only for Firestorm and Catznip users. (Black Dragon, for example, does not allow permanent de-rendering, nor does the vanilla Linden browser.)  Regardless, even for Firestorm/Catznip, it's still true *only* for ONE browser user, not for others who visit your parcel.

[Alyona Su]

5 minutes ago, Fushichou Mfume said:

If true, this would be somewhat viable, at least for oneself. But this is true only for Firestorm and Catznip users. (Black Dragon, for example, does not allow permanent de-rendering, nor does the vanilla Linden browser.)  Regardless, even for Firestorm/Catznip, it's still true *only* for ONE browser user, not for others who visit your parcel.

Also - you can derender the wall that blocks your walk-path, but it still and always will block your walk path - because it's still there, you're just not seeing it. Derendering anything is the same as putting on The Emporer's New Clothes.

[Fritigern Gothly]

5 hours ago, Kitten Kaos said:

... and the newfound sense of community in Bellisseria, for example, is exactly what is driving the nascent Renaissance.

I think that LL expects that people who "graduate" from the Bellisseria starter homes (because that's still what they are) will have such a desire for community instilled in them, as well as learned how to be a community, that once they move on from their starter homes, this will spill over to mainland, leading to a more community-driven Second Life.

I have to admit that as much as this sounds like that would be great for SL, I am too much of a skeptic to think that this is actually is going to happen. 

[Kat Ravenhurst]

9 minutes ago, Fritigern Gothly said:

I think that LL expects that people who "graduate" from the Bellisseria starter homes (because that's still what they are) will have such a desire for community instilled in them, as well as learned how to be a community, that once they move on from their starter homes, this will spill over to mainland, leading to a more community-driven Second Life.

I have to admit that as much as this sounds like that would be great for SL, I am too much of a skeptic to think that this is actually is going to happen. 

Yeah, that sounds a bit... unrealistic. IMO, New Urrbanism has some flaws, but it is rooted in a very true sociological principle- well designed spaces help set peoples' expectations and behaviors. Poorly designed spaces can lead to a tragedy of the commons.  Good and bad social norms are contagious and they are reinforced by the spaces we inhabit.

I predict that a large percentage of people will not "graduate" from starter homes, but will instead roll premium alts and buy Linden Homes in differing themed regions.  I could be wrong about all this , tho.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Kitten Kaos

[Blush Bravin]

Honestly, the only reason I still own any mainland at all is because I can't have a store in Bellisseria. I have no desire to return to living on mainland EVER. If the lab offers a commercial version of Bellisseria I will be moving my shop. 

[Kat Ravenhurst]

8 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Honestly, the only reason I still own any mainland at all is because I can't have a store in Bellisseria. I have no desire to return to living on mainland EVER. If the lab offers a commercial version of Bellisseria I will be moving my shop. 

And I think you are far from alone in this sentiment. I don't have a commercial space, but I have a non club "party space"- a ballroom and hangout for music lovers. It's a thing I've invested time & effort into. When I TP in my first thought now is *always* (after looking around at my region): "Burn it all to the ground (kinda difficult on waterland) or Z fling it into a sky dome, which will it be?"

Edited May 29, 2019 by Kitten Kaos

[Fox Wijaya]

6 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Honestly, the only reason I still own any mainland at all is because I can't have a store in Bellisseria. I have no desire to return to living on mainland EVER. If the lab offers a commercial version of Bellisseria I will be moving my shop. 

i'm a bit affraid if they gonna offer the different themes, even different sizes and commercial it wil be the start of huge sale of private regions, even estates... and hurt them (LL) badly.

[Qie Niangao]

As much as I like my Bellisseria spot, I'd have a hard time giving up the space and prims on my large Mainland parcels. And the terraforming. And the good neighbors. (Clearly YMMV.)

[Kat Ravenhurst]

4 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

As much as I like my Bellisseria spot, I'd have a hard time giving up the space and prims on my large Mainland parcels. And the terraforming. And the good neighbors. (Clearly YMMV.)

And that, right there, is the reason to get ahead of this and give more options that keep mainland competitive. Because yes, people do want those benefits, but not with a side of "I went to sleep,  when I woke up,  the neighbors put a 2 story, full bright, nude Hello Kitty outside my shop and people are mass deleting my landmark now."

(I'm being funny. I know certain kinds of neighborly aggression are against TOS, but if LL set things up properly, it would help defray many disputes)

Edited May 29, 2019 by Kitten Kaos

[LittleMe Jewell]

I'll always have a mainland parcel, so that I have a location with available LI for tinkering without having to go to a sandbox.  About the only LI that I''ll keep available in the new home is enough to rez a box. 

Back in the day, the original Linden Homes were all the craze and yet there were still a huge number of people that didn't want to live with the restrictions.  I don't see that changing.  While there are a lot of folks that love the new security rules on Bellisseria, there were some that left due to them and others that stated here in the forums that they would skip the new homes because of them.  There are also plenty of folks here that don't care about the 'community' aspect and are getting a Linden Home because it is one of their benefits and a place to live for free (beyond the cost of the membership).  There will also always be others that don't want the community stuff that won't bother getting a Linden home, for various reasons.

It will definitely have an impact on Mainland, but I'm not sure yet how drastic that will be. 

[LittleMe Jewell]

2 minutes ago, Kitten Kaos said:

And that, right there, is the reason to get ahead of this and give more options that keep mainland competitive. Because yes, people do want those benefits, but not with a side of "I went to sleep,  when I woke up,  the neighbors put a 2 story, full bright, nude Hello Kitty outside my shop and people are mass deleting my landmark now."

I think that most of the people that are super concerned with what neighbors might do either own enough land such that it doesn't matter or they already have their home and/or shop in a location that restricts what can be built.  I know that if I was a shop owner and was super concerned about what might appear beside me, I just wouldn't take the chance and would make sure I was some place where such things were controlled.

[Qie Niangao]

4 minutes ago, Kitten Kaos said:

... more options that keep mainland competitive... [emphasis mine]

You make an interesting point. I've waited out generations of fullbright nude Hello Kitties in my time, but folks who start out accustomed to Bellisseria may have less patience.

[Kat Ravenhurst]

8 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

I think that most of the people that are super concerned with what neighbors might do either own enough land such that it doesn't matter or they already have their home and/or shop in a location that restricts what can be built.  I know that if I was a shop owner and was super concerned about what might appear beside me, I just wouldn't take the chance and would make sure I was some place where such things were controlled.

You may well be right- perhaps this will govern itself,  with people choosing wisely to build in areas that aren't subject to the whims of the unknown or, conversely, choosing to be part of the Wild West for the full liberty it offers.

If so- don't mind my worry warting.

The thing that makes me hesitant is only that LL has consistently been surprised by the demand for strict covenant, themed land provided affordably & with built in stability of a sort by LL itself. I worry they may be victims of their own success, but time will tell & adjustments will be made.

Edited May 29, 2019 by Kitten Kaos

[Kat Ravenhurst]

2 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

You make an interesting point. I've waited out generations of fullbright nude Hello Kitties in my time, but folks who start out accustomed to Bellisseria may have less patience.

Exactly this

[animats]

The commandments of mainland living.

The moles put these up every 2km or so on the main roads of some continents. In some areas, each monument has its own tiny park and rez areas. Obeying these commandments solves most of the problems.

Yesterday, at the governance user group, someone learned about autoreturn for the first time. This solved her griefing problem. 5 to 20 minute autoreturn deals with most problems.

SL reserves the right to change the rules on mainland. I'd like to see the Bellisseria covenant extended to some mainland areas. Maybe a slow rollout starting in urban areas such as Bay City and Kama City, which don't have much big ugly stuff.

[Kat Ravenhurst]

Still .... I'd love to see a *tech* answer to all this (technological Utopian that I am). If any scripter can make the  screen I described in my first post (or if not, tell me why that's a no go, I'm interested in learning). Then my neighbor could have 2 or 12 or as many 2 story naked anime characters as she needed to find  true bliss and I'd be happy for her because it would impact me not at all

[Mollymews]

technically its not totally doable using current inworld objects and/or LSL alone

for totally derending of the neighbours parcel in a consistent way then its either a) a viewer only capability (TPV derender) or b) a new Linden server/viewer capability

on b) there was a similar chat about this way down in another thread on here about a month ago.  A rehash of a discussion that Penny Patton started once on here ages ago. The topic is pretty much a perennial that comes up now and again

a Linden whose name I can't remember now did, back then at the time of Penny's discussion, code up a test on client side derendering of everything not on our parcel. The Linden found it a bit disconcerting when moving across a region. Stuff popping in and out of the view as they moved from parcel to parcel. Qie mentions this above also. That Linden's test case never eventuated further beyond a test

 

on the not totally doable using current inworld objects and LSL. It is kinda doable, in a narrower circumstance

for example.  Take a standard screen that people put around their parcels sometimes. People often do try to do something good for their neighbours by making the outside (the neighbours side) transparent. Opaque only on the parcel owner's side. People try to be neighbourly in this sense

the neighbour can see thru the screen - which is good. But thru this they can see the inside of the far wall or side walls, which is/are opaque - which is not so good

a way to help with this is to LSL script the inside surface of the screen - opaque when a avatar is present on the parcel, transparent when no avatar is present.  From the neighbour's view  then when no one is at home on their neighbour's parcel then they (or their visitors) can't see the screen at all

[ChinRey]

14 hours ago, Annwren said:

If an unobstructed sky/water view untroubled by anything other than sky and water is desirable, then "sense of community" plays no part in it. Why try to solve that contradiction? 

If sense of community, then, plays no part in it, then de-render options give a person all the unobstructed view she can hope for.  Whether on the new continent or on the mainland.  It really is solved already.

Yes but if that is the case, Mainland plays no part in it. From a land owner's or renter's point of view the only advantage the Mainland concept has, is that it is possible to build within a larger context. The moment you remove that factor, single unconnected regions bcome a far better option.

[Qie Niangao]

2 hours ago, ChinRey said:

Yes but if that is the case, Mainland plays no part in it. From a land owner's or renter's point of view the only advantage the Mainland concept has, is that it is possible to build within a larger context. The moment you remove that factor, single unconnected regions bcome a far better option.

Sure, but there's a vast difference in cost between a 1024 sq.m. parcel (Mainland or otherwise) and a 65,536 sq.m. region. And that's not just an artifact of pricing: there's a lot of overhead in running a whole separate simulation, regardless of land area (witness Homesteads, which just barely keep up with nothing happening at all). That's just to say, it won't much help to move to the cloud and redefine downward the basic unit of SL landmass: there's still the problem of a few out-of-place neighbors in a well-themed community of landowners sharing the same simulation(s).

Linking what's being simulated to what's being rendered on everybody's viewer isn't necessary -- and it's sure not efficient.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Qie Niangao

[ChinRey]

24 minutes ago, Qie Niangao said:

Sure, but there's a vast difference in cost between a 1024 sq.m. parcel (Mainland or otherwise) and a 65,536 sq.m. region.

That's true but even if you have mutiple small parcels on a free standing region, there would still be fewer "annoying neighbours" than on mainland.

An island in the middle of a homestead sim. A dozen 1024 m2 parcels scattered across it as far out of sight from each other as possible but all still with a good view. That should do.