Living as a female in Second Life - my experiences

[FairreLilette]

19 minutes ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Google Images says that's Lucky Blue Smith.

I cannot be 100% sure but that mouth looks like him and he does look a bit like David Bowie.

I thought his name had Chris something in it but just cannot remember...even though I have looked at a lot of photos of him.   

And, I was reading a story in a magazine about him...the only thing I remember from the magazine article was he said relationships were difficult but he really wanted to concentrate on a relationship now.  

 

Edited October 31, 2019 by FairreLilette

[Prokofy Neva]

I have seen too many hearts broken and too many angry responses from people in SL upon discovering their partner is not the gender they believe, that I simply don't believe it's a good idea to hide this fact from an SL partner. The idea that SL is like Vegas, and "what happens in SL stays in SL" or that you can have "only" SL relationships is the biggest lie of Second Life. If it were true, there would be no anger or tears, but there are a lot of them. I once saw someone fake their death in RL rather than go through with an SL marriage where there was a lot of pressure to talk on Skype and meet in RL. I've seen people agree to RL meetings but then cancel them at the last minute, getting cold feet when they have to deal with someone finding out their RL gender.

Years ago, I dealt with two women who ran a club and joined a group that I formed for appreciation of SL architecture. They were both very aggressive and kept trying to take the group over, insisting on certain decisions and disrupting every meeting. I marveled at their aggressiveness which was more like male than female, although of course people can manifest differently in both RL sexes. More to the point, they were BDSM practitioners and in my experience, this reprehensible lifestyle ALWAYS bleeds over into other non-RP and non-consensual relationships and ALWAYS manifests as brutal and coercive, even if the person is a sub, not a dom. Part of the way this aggressiveness manifests is in insisting that this is all consensual and a lifestyle and never intrudes anywhere else and is all voluntary. I utterly dismiss these claims after years of online experience where I find often people have histories of abuse in their lives and are reliving them and are not consenting. It's their business, and I don't care what they do in their homes, and many are my tenants. But when they get in my face with this aggressive, manipulative, gas-lighting style of interaction, I cut it dead.

In the case of these two women, I didn't know they were really males or BDSM. Now I do, having looked up their profiles recently when I had to return their prims and found that they now honestly display this on their profiles. I would never done a project with them had I known this from the outset because this bad experience is proven to me again and again and again in 20 years of virtual living and I don't need to look for that nice exception anymore, I'm done. And once again, I can only reiterate that bar none, the most hateful and vicious types in SL who have persecuted me the most are m2f, usually with BDSM. Therefore, I'm all for people being honest in their relationships. They don't have to put it on their profile; but if they enter into some kind of relationship of trust, either romantic or business or non-profit, they should explain who they are so there are no tears. It's just common human decency. And if you CANNOT do that, ask yourself WHY. How are you manipulating your partner; why are you being secretive and keeping them in the dark, knowing they may be very upset if they knew the truth.

 

[Prokofy Neva]

On 10/29/2019 at 1:31 PM, Cinos Field said:

Almost universally, trans people of any stripe look down on "truscum" which are the types you describe there, i.e. the ones who go "if you don't do X you're not really trans".

In addition to that I've never witnessed an M2F person complain about "females appearing as males," and I don't generally understand why trans women would want men - which they aren't - to "reign supreme" except in some exceptional case of internalized transphobia

That's good, but in fact, that's not the practice in SL. The SL cohort is not necessarily representative of RL, but it is a certain kind of society. Let me suggest that you don't believe that there is such a thing as M2F hatred of F2M because you've simply never experienced it. It's like the experience of any minority, it's invisible to you if you are not that minority. Trust me, this hatred of M2F is well documented and I've written about it for years and I have many, many accounts of it without needing your approval on this. It's also not some sort of "internalized transphobia" on my part to insist that this is a valid experience. 

I've documented this assiduously, as it first it puzzled me but then I saw it was a pattern. Of course one manifestation of this phenomenon is for these vicious types to claim that if I personally am being harassed or griefed, why, it isn't anything about my gender, it's only about my political views, or my posts critical of SL, or something of the sort. But that's baloney, as people with these same political views, i.e. who are not leftist/communist/trans-humanist but liberals and not libertarians or right-wingers, are not harassed by the left or right in the same way.

There is a particular vicious, crazy hatred that I've seen first in the Sims Online, then in Second Life, then on social media. I account for it in different ways. One, is the patriarchal impulse I think does exist where M2F feels as if they should get to change, but females -- to which they are changing -- should stay put. The "little wife" syndrome. I'm not an extreme feminist, and I don't yammer on about "the patriarchy" as some do, but on this, I think it applies.

Another factor at play is that M2F exists in a world of their own making, in which they can get people to buy into their fantasy and their dream, and it comes as a shock when they discover that someone has done the opposite, gone F2M. Perhaps that shock even applies when they find out someone is M2F whom they didn't know. That brings them up short, they realize they are changing their gender for real, although in virtuality, and this triggers their fears and apprehensions and ambivalences and they lash out.

@Lindal Kidd um, no, I didn't "miss the mark". I expressed my opinion which is valid and based on my own considerable experience. I realize that you will post something contrary to WHATEVER I say; I could say "It's raining and the streets are wet" and you'd say in fact I'd pissed myself. Surely you must realize that when you keep doing this you will only get resistance every time. I'm not "wrong" about something, I just *have a different view than you do* and you are not "right".

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

I think it is hilarious that as a man playing a female you get hit on, yet me.. a female playing a female on sl NEVER get hit on.

 

 

[SpiritSparrow Skydancer]

2 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

That's good, but in fact, that's not the practice in SL. The SL cohort is not necessarily representative of RL, but it is a certain kind of society. Let me suggest that you don't believe that there is such a thing as M2F hatred of F2M because you've simply never experienced it. It's like the experience of any minority, it's invisible to you if you are not that minority. Trust me, this hatred of M2F is well documented and I've written about it for years and I have many, many accounts of it without needing your approval on this. It's also not some sort of "internalized transphobia" on my part to insist that this is a valid experience. 

I've documented this assiduously, as it first it puzzled me but then I saw it was a pattern. Of course one manifestation of this phenomenon is for these vicious types to claim that if I personally am being harassed or griefed, why, it isn't anything about my gender, it's only about my political views, or my posts critical of SL, or something of the sort. But that's baloney, as people with these same political views, i.e. who are not leftist/communist/trans-humanist but liberals and not libertarians or right-wingers, are not harassed by the left or right in the same way.

There is a particular vicious, crazy hatred that I've seen first in the Sims Online, then in Second Life, then on social media. I account for it in different ways. One, is the patriarchal impulse I think does exist where M2F feels as if they should get to change, but females -- to which they are changing -- should stay put. The "little wife" syndrome. I'm not an extreme feminist, and I don't yammer on about "the patriarchy" as some do, but on this, I think it applies.

Another factor at play is that M2F exists in a world of their own making, in which they can get people to buy into their fantasy and their dream, and it comes as a shock when they discover that someone has done the opposite, gone F2M. Perhaps that shock even applies when they find out someone is M2F whom they didn't know. That brings them up short, they realize they are changing their gender for real, although in virtuality, and this triggers their fears and apprehensions and ambivalences and they lash out.

@Lindal Kidd um, no, I didn't "miss the mark". I expressed my opinion which is valid and based on my own considerable experience. I realize that you will post something contrary to WHATEVER I say; I could say "It's raining and the streets are wet" and you'd say in fact I'd pissed myself. Surely you must realize that when you keep doing this you will only get resistance every time. I'm not "wrong" about something, I just *have a different view than you do* and you are not "right".

wait, there is a SIMS online?

[Beth Macbain]

1 hour ago, Prokofy Neva said:

More to the point, they were BDSM practitioners and in my experience, this reprehensible lifestyle...

You need a spanking, Prok.

[Prokofy Neva]

2 hours ago, Tarina Sewell said:

wait, there is a SIMS online?

Yes, the beta began in 1999. It ran until 2008 when they first tried to introduce user content, then shut it down, with a big GAME OVER that some of us stayed to watch before having our virtual lives deleted forever. Then a group of programmer fans made a re-engineered version called Free Sims Online (FreeSO) which is really quite good, and keeps introducing new content. There are also some offshoots on private servers here and there. It really was great. In some ways, better than Second Life in its ability to have people build communities and interact and have goals. But in content and style it was of course far inferior which is why it went out of business, I guess.

[Lindal Kidd]

2 hours ago, Prokofy Neva said:

@Lindal Kidd um, no, I didn't "miss the mark". I expressed my opinion which is valid and based on my own considerable experience. I realize that you will post something contrary to WHATEVER I say; I could say "It's raining and the streets are wet" and you'd say in fact I'd pissed myself. Surely you must realize that when you keep doing this you will only get resistance every time. I'm not "wrong" about something, I just *have a different view than you do* and you are not "right".
 

Not so, Prok.  It's true that we disagree on many things!  Nonetheless, I respect you and I know that you put considerable thought into your posts.  I do not express a contrary opinion to your posts just because they come from you.  Note the many, many posts you've made to which I made NO counter!  (And, while I'm at it, the many posts that I've made, with which YOU didn't disagree.  I thank you for that!) 

I agree that you "have a different view than I do" (on the subject at hand; we won't go into previous debates!).  I DON'T agree that "I am not 'right'".  I merely agree that our views differ.

[Alazarin Mondrian]

M playing as F in SL here. Lost a few and gained a few friends when I hit the F button for my avatar shape. Wrote a narrative in my profile and picks that more or less covers all bases. I occasionally get compliments for my looks and every now and then a guy will hit on me. Whoop-de-doo!

I might flip a coin some time down the road and play SL as M again. Or not. Other than that, I dunno. I don't see any point in making a big deal about it. Things like overcoming creative block are much more important issues to me than my avatar's gender.

Edited November 2, 2019 by Alazarin Mondrian
more thoughts and stuff...

[FairreLilette]

I think the main reason I'd prefer to have a male playing a male is that I come from a family of all girls and cousins all girls and sisters-in-law all girls.  I have almost a complete lack of men in my life that I would love to have a male to talk to every now and then.  My best friend has moved across the country recently.  I never thought I'd have a male best friend in real life but I did and I am miss him.  Though as a Dinkie which is a tiny cat with human characteristics, anything more than best friends is not possible.  I'd see no reason why Dinkies could not partner; however, it would be plantonic.  However, as I said, if it's all typing there is really no way for him to know I am a female in rl nor for me to know he is a male in rl unless we go to the telephone, skype, cam, etc.  

Edited November 3, 2019 by FairreLilette

[Selene Gregoire]

27 minutes ago, FairreLilette said:

I think the main reason I'd prefer to have a male playing a male is that I come from a family of all girls and cousins all girls and sisters-in-law all girls.  I have almost a complete lack of men in my life that I would love to have a male to talk to every now and then.  My best friend has moved across the country recently.  I never thought I'd have a male best friend in real life but I did and I am miss him.  Though as a Dinkie which is a tiny cat with human characteristics, anything more than best friends is not possible.  I'd see no reason why Dinkies could not partner; however, it would be plantonic.  However, as I said, if it's all typing there is really no way for him to know I am a female in rl nor for me to know he is a male in rl unless we go to the telephone, skype, cam, etc.  

I have the opposite problem. I grew up in a neighborhood where there were no girls, only boys and two older brothers. Every female "friend" I've had turned out to be a backstabber. People never hesitate to cry on my shoulder but whenever I need a shoulder, they are nowhere to be found or they are busy or some other excuse. 

You're lucky you have women in your life you can trust and talk to.

[FairreLilette]

17 hours ago, Selene Gregoire said:

I have the opposite problem. I grew up in a neighborhood where there were no girls, only boys and two older brothers. Every female "friend" I've had turned out to be a backstabber. People never hesitate to cry on my shoulder but whenever I need a shoulder, they are nowhere to be found or they are busy or some other excuse. 

You're lucky you have women in your life you can trust and talk to.

Yeah, I do have women in my life to talk to.   I grew up in a family of girls including cousins.   I always wanted a brother.  I've been lucky to have had best friends who were male also.  One when I was about 8 to 11 years old or so and then one for the past 3-4 years who recently moved far away.  

Edited November 4, 2019 by FairreLilette

[Selene Gregoire]

3 hours ago, FairreLilette said:

Yeah, I do have women in my life to talk to.   I grew up in a family of girls including cousins.   I always wanted a brother.  I've been lucky to have had best friends who were male also.  One when I was about 8 to 11 years old or so and then one for the past 3-4 years who recently moved far away.  

None of the boys in my neighborhood would be friends with me. Not with a bully like my oldest brother around. My other brother avoided me like the plague because older brother bullied him as well if he had anything to do with me. He bullied everyone. Friends in school? That was over before I ever even started kindergarten because he was there before me. That stuff followed me even to schools he had never attended because some of the students had been in schools with him so it was all there before I ever arrived. He took great delight in destroying my life, in more ways than you want to know.

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

On 1/1/2019 at 4:39 PM, Gopi Passiflora said:

"Hey, your hair is lovely," he says.

I then feel relief and the pleasure. After all, I do like compliments on my avi's hair for some reason.

Have you tried the poseballs?

[Prokofy Neva]

On 10/31/2019 at 9:45 PM, Lindal Kidd said:

Not so, Prok.  It's true that we disagree on many things!  Nonetheless, I respect you and I know that you put considerable thought into your posts.  I do not express a contrary opinion to your posts just because they come from you.  Note the many, many posts you've made to which I made NO counter!  (And, while I'm at it, the many posts that I've made, with which YOU didn't disagree.  I thank you for that!) 

I agree that you "have a different view than I do" (on the subject at hand; we won't go into previous debates!).  I DON'T agree that "I am not 'right'".  I merely agree that our views differ.

Your impression that many, many posts I've made exist to which you made no contention isn't supported by the facts. Count them. Also note you're changing your tune now. Before, I was "wrong", not just "with a different opinion". Not suddenly you're conceding that I can have a different opinion. Evidently you believe either a) there is objective truth and you have access to it or b) there isn't objective truth but some people can be more right than wrong. I happen to believe there is a) objective truth and I or you as imperfect human beings can never have total access to it; b) some people can be more right than wrong but the right to be wrong is hugely important in a liberal democratic society. 

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

On 10/30/2019 at 12:58 PM, cheesecurd said:

My irl spouse is scarily good at playing a woman on HERE. He played the role of a girl better than most girls I knew.

Did he giggle and play with his hair a lot? 

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

Can I just point out that despite pixel hair, makeup, or being good at "playing the role of a woman" (whatever that means), having a female avatar is never going to give you an accurate impression of what it's like to be a woman. 

I can see how the hair and clothing could be fun though. 

[Scylla Rhiadra]

On 10/31/2019 at 6:52 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

Trust me, this hatred of M2F is well documented and I've written about it for years and I have many, many accounts of it without needing your approval on this. It's also not some sort of "internalized transphobia" on my part to insist that this is a valid experience.

I'm not about to accuse you of internalized transphobia -- I don't think that's an issue for you.

But how has this supposed phenomenon been "well documented"? Where, exactly? Other than on your blog, I mean.

I get that you are in a position to have experienced this first-hand, and I have not . . . but anecdote and personal experience are not the same thing as "well documented."

[Lindal Kidd]

33 minutes ago, Prokofy Neva said:

Your impression that many, many posts I've made exist to which you made no contention isn't supported by the facts. Count them. Also note you're changing your tune now. Before, I was "wrong", not just "with a different opinion". Not suddenly you're conceding that I can have a different opinion. Evidently you believe either a) there is objective truth and you have access to it or b) there isn't objective truth but some people can be more right than wrong. I happen to believe there is a) objective truth and I or you as imperfect human beings can never have total access to it; b) some people can be more right than wrong but the right to be wrong is hugely important in a liberal democratic society. 

Sigh.  If you think I am going to revisit all your posts and count the ones I responded to, think again.  I suspect you didn't do that either.  So you are making an assertion, not stating a fact.  This argument we are having now is one of the reasons why I usually DON'T take issue with your posts: you insist on always having the last word.  (The other is, to your credit, that I actually agree with some of your posts!)

No, I am not changing my tune.  I did not say you were "wrong", I said you "missed the mark".  That is to say, I think you came to the wrong conclusion about WHY gay men or M2F people "loathe" females who appear as males.  You concluded, "And I can only explain it ultimately as a form of patriarchy and sexism of its own -- that even in *this*, too -- changing genders -- the males wish to reign supreme."  My opinion on this is that it is not a 'form of patriarchy and sexism' but that they are angered by people who they perceive as trying to trick them.

That's all I'm going to say on this, even though I'm sure you'll be back to have the last word.  Be my guest, I've said my say and I'm done.

[Gopi Passiflora]

2 hours ago, Ingrid Ingersoll said:

Have you tried the poseballs?

How did you know my alt's hair had poseballs?

To answer your question, I have tried them at least once but I don't really use them.

[cheesecurd]

2 hours ago, Ingrid Ingersoll said:

Did he giggle and play with his hair a lot? 

Oh yeah, had an idle animation for rummaging through a purse filled with receipts to Tiffany’s and Sephora, always sat right over left leg, and made sure to constantly adjust all three positional axis of a hair clip that never sat right.

/s

2 hours ago, Ingrid Ingersoll said:

Can I just point out that despite pixel hair, makeup, or being good at "playing the role of a woman" (whatever that means), having a female avatar is never going to give you an accurate impression of what it's like to be a woman. 

I can see how the hair and clothing could be fun though. 

I get what you mean but consider that SL gives you an accurate representation of absolutely nothing related to IRL.

Its all about how you socially handle yourself.

[FairreLilette]

I just couldn't a grip around my ex-husband being a woman in SL.  It would be comical to me because I know he wouldn't have shaved his legs or his armpits.  It would be comical somewhat like the movie "Some Like It Hot" with Marilyn Monroe - which is a fantastic movie!  

But, I do agree that just "dressing" as the common cliche of how a woman dresses which is out of touch with reality in many ways with how women actually dress in today's modern world cannot give you a sense of actually what it's like to be a woman.  

I do not own a pair of high heel shoes in real life nor do any of my rl sisters.  I'm a boho girl in California....sandals for me....cute and comfy sandals that are worn until they wear out and flat Ugg styles boots for Winter.  None of our friends even own any high heels - that's a sterotype from the 1950's if you ask me.  Most California girls don't.    

I'm a Dinkie now - a cat with human characteristics, and I have no idea what it's like to be a cat.  

If, I may ask though, what do you hope to experience as a male in a female avatar?  

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by FairreLilette

[Lindal Kidd]

On 10/31/2019 at 6:39 PM, Prokofy Neva said:

I have seen too many hearts broken and too many angry responses from people in SL upon discovering their partner is not the gender they believe, that I simply don't believe it's a good idea to hide this fact from an SL partner. The idea that SL is like Vegas, and "what happens in SL stays in SL" or that you can have "only" SL relationships is the biggest lie of Second Life. If it were true, there would be no anger or tears, but there are a lot of them. I once saw someone fake their death in RL rather than go through with an SL marriage where there was a lot of pressure to talk on Skype and meet in RL. I've seen people agree to RL meetings but then cancel them at the last minute, getting cold feet when they have to deal with someone finding out their RL gender.

Years ago, I dealt with two women who ran a club and joined a group that I formed for appreciation of SL architecture. They were both very aggressive and kept trying to take the group over, insisting on certain decisions and disrupting every meeting. I marveled at their aggressiveness which was more like male than female, although of course people can manifest differently in both RL sexes. More to the point, they were BDSM practitioners and in my experience, this reprehensible lifestyle ALWAYS bleeds over into other non-RP and non-consensual relationships and ALWAYS manifests as brutal and coercive, even if the person is a sub, not a dom. Part of the way this aggressiveness manifests is in insisting that this is all consensual and a lifestyle and never intrudes anywhere else and is all voluntary. I utterly dismiss these claims after years of online experience where I find often people have histories of abuse in their lives and are reliving them and are not consenting. It's their business, and I don't care what they do in their homes, and many are my tenants. But when they get in my face with this aggressive, manipulative, gas-lighting style of interaction, I cut it dead.

In the case of these two women, I didn't know they were really males or BDSM. Now I do, having looked up their profiles recently when I had to return their prims and found that they now honestly display this on their profiles. I would never done a project with them had I known this from the outset because this bad experience is proven to me again and again and again in 20 years of virtual living and I don't need to look for that nice exception anymore, I'm done. And once again, I can only reiterate that bar none, the most hateful and vicious types in SL who have persecuted me the most are m2f, usually with BDSM. Therefore, I'm all for people being honest in their relationships. They don't have to put it on their profile; but if they enter into some kind of relationship of trust, either romantic or business or non-profit, they should explain who they are so there are no tears. It's just common human decency. And if you CANNOT do that, ask yourself WHY. How are you manipulating your partner; why are you being secretive and keeping them in the dark, knowing they may be very upset if they knew the truth.

 

OK, I lied.  I DO have something more to say.  Prok, I agree completely with the parts of your post that I have boldfaced here.

[Mollymews]

33 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

OK, I lied.  I DO have something more to say.  Prok, I agree completely with the parts of your post that I have boldfaced here.

agree with you and Prokofy on this

honesty is always best for a healthy relationship

[Ingrid Ingersoll]

On 10/31/2019 at 6:55 PM, Tarina Sewell said:

wait, there is a SIMS online?

Yeah it was released in 2002. Didn't do very well. I'm hoping they'll try again at the idea at some point.