irihapeti Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 when in Rome is quite interesting this thought process if SL is equate to Rome in this way then the roman way is to sell passes (door fee) thru the About land, which is provided for this purpose can argue that those venue owners who dont do this are not Romans. Conquerors of Rome maybe tho. If so then is the Way of the Conqueror, as a thought process + i take the point tho that a SL club can be neither a business or a charity. It can be a hobby a performer (DJ or muso) can not be a professional either. We are busker in this case when we have our hand out. Hat, instrument case, tip jar, begging bowl, etc in both these cases then we get what we get. If what we get from our hobby and/or busking is unsatisfying for us then is no compelling reason that make sense to me, for why we would continue doing this i think also that when we get miffed when others dont money-wise appreciate our hobby then I am question the morality of that miffing + about being amazed that people in SL expect to pay nothing for their entertainment people dont expect this. People will pay if they have to, if the thing they want is worth the asking price to them. If they dont have to pay then they dont. Is a human behaviour this and is not particular to SL whether or not people have to pay for our stuff is not up to them. Is upto us. Is our stuff, our service, our venue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dresden Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 clivesteel wrote: The backlash starts TODAY! Using my investigative alt, created today, I have enquired about several SL jobs. Quite frankly, what I've discovered disgusts me. A DJ undertaking a two-hour set, for instance, is expected to make do on 'tips'. I asked how much one earns on average and was told "can be around 500$L". This is US$2.02 for two hours' work. Would you expect a RL DJ to work for this??? Of course not. Yet, the work and time involved are exactly the same. The UK minimum wage is £6.50 per hour, which translates to US$10.32. Therefore, the criminals who run these clubs should be paying AT LEAST 2,559$L per hour, or just over 5,000$L for a full two-hour set. Otherwise - this is slave labour - pure and simple. According to payscale.com, the average UK DJ earns £27.50 per hour as a median wage. In other words, SL employers should pay, AT LEAST, $L21,654 for a two-hour set. "This is just a game" you reply. Wrong, TIME IS TIME. The average SL DJ probably does as much work as a RL one. It makes no difference whether you put in two hours of work online or in McDonalds. So you see, SL employers are guilty of the most heinous abuse of human labour!! And nobody has the brains or guts to pull them up on it! TIME to campaign for a fair wage on SL - pay your employees what you owe them. I call on ALL DJs, hosts, dancers and SL workers to withdraw their labour and refuse to work on SL unless you are paid at least $L2,559 per hour. You must be joking. SL is an environment where people go to pretend to be something they usually can't be in RL. The price for being taken seriously in SL as something you've no chance of being in RL is the difference between such inequitable pay scales. If someone is good enough to make-believe they're worthy of earning a small pittance of cash in such a place, they should not only pat themselves on the back for being able to earn the minimal income they make in SL, but accept the fact that they most probably have no chance whatsoever of earning anything comparable to that which might sustain an actual RL existence. At least not that which involves a whole hell of a lot of hard work and initiative in the real world. People work and perform here, not because they wish to make RL money doing so, but because either they're honing their craft or trying to have a good time while doing something they truly enjoy simply because they enjoy doing it. To suggest that such sometimes quiet talented, yet still mostly amateur, performers should be paid RL professional wages for pretending to be SL professional performers is utterly ridiculous. ...Dres 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kinda Fallen Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Hobby...lol ..most club owners from the get go realize a club in SL is a money pit. I still find it laughable that there is a place on sim tools to actually charge to get into the region. In all my years here, i have yet to see anyone try that. You would have to REALLY love having a club in SL to keep one open, or be rolling in some assumed prestige, because its far more the norm to have to wrangle folks in with cash and prizes. SL is NOT RL, so lets get past that argument as a very moot point. Yes it would have been incredible had SL started out without the entire tipping thing, and relied on salaries from employers, but sadly that is not the case. There is a whole lot of overhead that has to be met to entertain in SL, in our case instruments, stream, outfits, stages, music we have paid to download, and yes even advertising. Yes we dearly love what we do, but in an act of appreciation, tips would be nice to offset some of that expense. So i guess the point i most wish to make, is if you have a favorite entertainer, or club, or venue, start tipping. Once the well dries up for most of these places they are gone. Once gone, we are all the losers, so appreciate what you enjoy and support them with a few $L, because believe me the club owner or entertainer is most likely paying out of their own pocket to provide you with that entertainment in SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marigold Devin Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Welcome to Second Life Forums, clivesteel (or welcome back if this is not your main avatar and you have been here before). There is no need for a mass rally or for gathering troops for an uprising. Wages in Second Life are fair, as fair as each individual is willing to accept them. In my own case, I entered Second Life in 2007 with no particular aim or goal, and somehow, for a brief few months, found myself working as a columnist for a publication. My wages amount covered the rent on a large and luxurious property I had, as well as travelling expenses, and film for my camera, plus bullet-proof vest. I was a very happy bunny. If you have problems accepting the wages on offer, you are always able to negotiate with potential employers, but you also have the option of becoming self-employed, which some people have found quite lucrative. I take more issue with those in real life who, in spite of Factory Acts and the European Working Time Directive, still will accept working overtime on just single time rates of pay, and will finish work at midnight, only to come back in at 6am the following day. Now these are the ones who are potentially causing problems. Real Life problems. Second Life really should be seen only as fun and recreation, not as serious employment, and as others have already stated elsewhere in this thread, people who do things, such as DJing, or stripping/escort work, or modelling, may be very happy to do so on what might seem like a low rate of pay in Second Life, because they may have difficulty doing the same jobs in real life, but it gives them immense pleasure to do so in Second Life, and pleasure is part of the payment. Everyone loves validation, and that isn't measured in any monetary way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleasureboi Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Amethyst Jetaime wrote: I understand and respect your culture of non tipping. Most would be better off if that were adopted world wide IMO. However that is not the culture of SL. When in Rome do as the Romans do. Outside of countries who don't use the Metric System... it is the adopted norm. As a rule, we don't tip because we don't need to. The employer pays a decent wage and the price of the meal is gratuity included. As for you thinking it's the norm in SL, is it? Or again are you being coloured by your own countries weird practice of the cheapskate business not paying the employee a living wage but expecting the customers to do it instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irihapeti Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 dunno if you missed it, but I already said before. If I do have any money to give then I give to the venue. The staff I am indifferent to. If they want money for what they do then they can get off the person I gave the money to. Or not as they like so in this sense I am support the OP. Is just that I am suggest a different form of activism. If nobody ever tip the staff and only tip the venue instead then it will change how clubs are run. Like the staff arent going to keep on working for free, hoping to get tips. Bc they arent going to get any and what happens when this happens is that club owners are going to have to pay their employees. Unless is a sole or family business and they do it all themself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alwin Alcott Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 really great you support the venue owners with your tips, but realize most DJ's don't get wage but play just for tips. So your good intentions/reasons to give it to the owners doesn't make the ones who really work for you get anything. Thats how SL works... good intentions to change that will not work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irihapeti Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Alwin Alcott wrote: really great you support the venue owners with your tips, but realize most DJ's don't get wage but play just for tips. So your good intentions/reasons to give it to the owners doesn't make the ones who really work for you get anything. Thats how SL works... good intentions to change that will not work. yes I understand and am accepting of your point, that Amythest and kinda have made also. That this is how it is now for many but if the club patrons never gave the DJ or staff any tip and instead gave to the venue owner then what will be the outcome? will a person (DJ, live performer or hostie) keep doing this for nothing, knowing that the owner of the club is getting a income and they the DJ, entertainer, hostie are working for nix? in a activist action, the pressure point, the tipping point, is who actual has the money. In the case of the staff it is not them. So as a activist tactic then is pretty much a waste to try use them. like thru strike action and that, to effect change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freya Mokusei Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Alwin Alcott wrote: Thats how SL works... good intentions to change that will not work. Agree with you quite a lot, and I wouldn't worry - in SL there is always someone doing the opposite, undoing 'good' work. Me personally, I rarely feel any connection to venues. Approach is that if these folks weren't throwing a party, someone else - somewhere else - would be, and the cool people that I want to see would be there (either working or partying). My activity in SL is the kind of place where people will create fun if none can be found. Venues are transitory and perpetually struggling/asking for more. What outlives them is the individual. Individuals can recombine again and again to keep creating funtimes, rather than sinking barrels of L$ into tier for a build that won't last six months. And so while I have tipped some clearly-struggling venues, by far the majority of my tips end up directly in workers' pockets. I try and avoid tipjars too, really (unless I'm familiar with the management) - if workers want to use them they can rinse the money through themselves. src=trollface.jpg??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Ceriano Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I"m not a forum addict but I could not pass up this unique opportunity :matte-motes-nerdy: Indeed Clivesteel, something incredibly great can be set up using your real you in the real world : it is called "job". I've been trying for over 25 years so far, and it is very efficient as regard to put butter on the bread. And on the other hand, if SL wages are not acceptable to you, well, so don't work in SL. And I guess nobody obliges anyone to work in SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 pleasureboi wrote: Outside of countries who don't use the Metric System... This is totally incorrect. Below is a tipping chart that clearly shows many countries have tipping. Those that don't charge a 'service charge' or add the cost of the staff hidden in the cost you pay for. So you still pay one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bree Giffen Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Dear OP, start a union and get all the DJ's to join you. If club owners get the same payment request from every DJ then they might just agree. If it doesn't work out you could write a book about it, "the rise and fall of unionization in second life". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irihapeti Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Bree Giffen wrote: If it doesn't work out you could write a book about it, "the rise and fall of unionization in second life". i think it might end up being titled: "The fall and fall further" or "How my Home key got broken and I never got off the ground" (: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theresa Tennyson Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 irihapeti wrote: Bree Giffen wrote: If it doesn't work out you could write a book about it, "the rise and fall of unionization in second life". i think it might end up being titled: "The fall and fall further" or "How my Home key got broken and I never got off the ground" (: Or "How I Trolled the Second Life Forum" maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Romano Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 That tipping chat is too vague. Europe is not a country by comprises approximately 50 countries and the culture is very different across countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VivaLaTease Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 To the OP, I am a Club owner in Second Life. I came into this knowing full well that I will make zero money out of owning a club in SL, even with the small amount of stores I I rent out and club donations, this all goes back into parcel rent and also tipping the DJs and Hosts, Sploder and or anything the club may need, this includes advertising the club, job advertising and such. I am also a DJ, but I also went into DJing knowing full well that this will not be a income, anything i make from Tips will go to clothing and such that I wish to buy, or if I rent a parcel or apartment or anything else I wish to aquire, or I would have to bring in my own money. Second Life is a social network, its a hobby, its a place where people come to socialize and hopefully create places where people can come and hangout and maybe do something they consider fun. Most of all we join Second Life to make friends or to meet RL friends online to hang out and explore. DJing and Hosting is a hobby and its something we do for fun, and hopefully make some lindons to purchase items in SL. As a Club owner I never take any percentage away from tips, DJs and Hosts always get full 100% tips and I also provide a club stream for those who truly want to share there music but can not afford there own stream. So here is a break down of what I pay for the club: Parcel Rent Club stream Tips to DJs and Hosts Advertising + Job Ads I also have incentives for staff like Staff of the week, so I purchase gift cards weekly to give out I can not afford to pay my Managers but I like to give them little bonuses here and there when have any extra lindons left over. This does all add up to over $55 RL each week, because that is my RL budget. I do this because I am passionate about what I do in SL, I know that the club I have has made people very happy, its given them an outlet to enjoy SL and enjoy either DJing or Hosting in SL. I would be insane to do this thinking that I would make a RL income out of it, including my DJing in SL, because its near impossible just on Club ownership and DJing alone. If I really wanted to make an income I would quite obviously get a RL job in this field. I do not vouch for EVERY club owner in SL, but I do vouch as a club owner myself that i will do what I can to make sure that all the DJs and Hosts who work at my club are as comfortable as possible, creatively and atmospherically. Every club owner has there own way of doing things, and the way I do things is entirely different to others. I like to think that everyone who works for my club feels a sense of being apart of a Team, they feel valid and important, they feel comfortable and knowing that they can be creative with there events and playlists. Just my opinion, but if anything people need to stop thinking that all Club Owners are selfish, greedy and no good, that we steal from the poor and keep it for ourselves. Not ALL club owners are this way, in fact we are the completely opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhonda Huntress Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Where's the Kudos button when you need it? I think the OP was just a bit of sarcasm but it did get a good discussion going 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muletta Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 All that begging for money in SL, sometimes keeps me away from venues with music. Even though I once in a while tip the place I am visiting, I can't help thinking: why should I, give away from my own tiny small profit from my own business (my hard earned money) to someone, who works not nearly as many hours as myself for the same amount, as a DJ or a singer? Does the DJ tip me, when I have worked out my butt out of my pants, after showing him/her my vacant homes, without he/she rents anything? No, she/he doesn't. If you don't think that the fun you have by working in SL is enough wage, then stop working. - If you are able to work and make a profit out of it, just be twice as glad. But stop complaining about, that you can not get hold on a lot of other peoples money here... Most business-people here have a lot of expenses and a little income, so do not moan because you use some casual hours here totally voluntary with playing some music. If you want a lot of money - get a rl job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I realize it is a very basic chart. I posted it to refute the claim of a poster that only countries that don't use the metric system tip, which is not true at all. There were other charts that gave info by country but they were too long to post here. A close relative of mine works with Doctors without Borders and travels everywhere for her work. She's been on every continent of the world and many countries. She assures me that there are a lot of countries, even those on the metric system, where tipping is the norm. And some where it is not normal. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drake1 Nightfire Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 irihapeti wrote: Alwin Alcott wrote: really great you support the venue owners with your tips, but realize most DJ's don't get wage but play just for tips. So your good intentions/reasons to give it to the owners doesn't make the ones who really work for you get anything. Thats how SL works... good intentions to change that will not work. yes I understand and am accepting of your point, that Amythest and kinda have made also. That this is how it is now for many but if the club patrons never gave the DJ or staff any tip and instead gave to the venue owner then what will be the outcome? will a person (DJ, live performer or hostie) keep doing this for nothing, knowing that the owner of the club is getting a income and they the DJ, entertainer, hostie are working for nix? in a activist action, the pressure point, the tipping point, is who actual has the money. In the case of the staff it is not them. So as a activist tactic then is pretty much a waste to try use them. like thru strike action and that, to effect change So, wait.. You tip the club owner for? nothing and ignore the people who entertained you. That is twisted logic. I think i wil try that the next time i go to a club in RL.. Not tip the waitstaff, nor the DJ, request several songs and dedications and just buy drinks. Screw the staff, they just do all the hard work, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhonda Huntress Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Drake1 Nightfire wrote: So, wait.. You tip the club owner for? Paying teir every week for the land the stream is playing on. And usually paying for the stream as well. At least that's why I tip the venues. They have the highest ongoing costs to cover and most never actually cover that cost from in world earnings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muletta Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Rhonda Huntress wrote: Drake1 Nightfire wrote: So, wait.. You tip the club owner for? Paying teir every week for the land the stream is playing on. And usually paying for the stream as well. At least that's why I tip the venues. They have the highest ongoing costs to cover and most never actually cover that cost from in world earnings. So do I...for the same reasons that you say here. - And I always assume, that the venue is paying their DJs/artists. It is confusing when both the venue and the performer are begging for money at the same time, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senobia Xenga Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 clivesteel wrote: Using my investigative alt, created today, I have enquired about several SL jobs. And nobody has the brains or guts to pull them up on it! Neither do you, appparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbie Faulds Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Having done DJing in the past, most venues do not pay their DJs. Many DJs have to provide their own stream as well. So, I always tip the DJ and the venue. If there is a contest going on and I win, I'll use a portion of that to tip everyone as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muletta Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Bobbie Faulds wrote: Having done DJing in the past, most venues do not pay their DJs. Many DJs have to provide their own stream as well. So, I always tip the DJ and the venue. If there is a contest going on and I win, I'll use a portion of that to tip everyone as well. Well, that is why I have long periods where I just stay away from venues with DJs/singers... I just want to be able to enjoy the music for half an hour occasionally, without the need to feel, that I should be involved in all kind of internal financiel stuff, about who is paying who, and how much....This kind of trouble, is very far from having the relaxing time, music should provide, if you know what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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